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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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I disagree with the existence of Austria-Hungary as a formable in this game in the first place. Your name suggestions are afaik historically correct though, so I'll take back the disagree, sorry
I do understand the concern about its existence, though I would not necessarily be opposed to it in certain circumstances
 
I know, it was a real union which is a bit different than a personal union, that's why I wrote "somewhat portray". It did exist, yes, but not in the game's timeframe and only because of very specific circumstances and I don't think it historically was something anybody really strived for (as opposed to e.g. a unified Germany). The way I see it, A-H should be a nerf for the Austrians, not an upgrade. But then who would click the "form nation" button if it makes your country worse? That's why, in my opinion, A-H should not be a formable but, if implemented, should happen through an event or maybe as a decision with a trade off (you as Austria lose control (in the PC sense) over Hungarian areas, but raise the satisfaction of your Hungarian pops + your name and flag change, something like that)

Well, the DD says that these formables are mostly for roleplaying reasons and historic immersion and not so much for the impact on actual game mechanics.

Now having some sort of disaster or situation for Austria that includes unrest in Hungary and has the formation of Austria-Hungary as one the possible options for resolving this would be great. And in that case there should certainly be some impact on the happiness of pops or things like centralization.

But I feel just having Austria-Hungary as a formable with only limited effect on the gameplay would also be resonable.
 
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Wrote up a quick list, definitely missed many in India, but I'm not very knowledgeable about most of those areas anyways.

South America:
  • Peru-Bolivia (Plausible)
  • Gran Colombia (Plausible)
  • La Plata (Plausible)
  • Centroamerica (Plausible)
  • Amazon (Ahistorical)
  • + all irl countries

North America:
  • Each of the following states (All Plausible):
    • Virginia (incl. WV)
    • Carolina
    • Pennsylvania
    • Texas (Old Borders)
    • Florida (incl. West Florida)
    • Louisiana (incl. og colonial boundaries)
    • Ohio (Ohio Valley, Not the State)
    • Utah {only for christians}
    • California
  • New England (Plausible)
  • Vinland (Ahistorical)
  • Quebec (Plausible)
  • Acadia (Plausible)
  • Cascadia (Ahistorical)
  • Hispaniola (Plausible)
  • Caribbean (Ahistorical)
  • Greenland (Plausible/Ahistorical)

Europe:
  • Swabia
  • Brittany
  • Aquitania (Plausible)
  • Euskara {only for basque culture}
  • Galicia
  • Lotharingia (Ahistorical)
  • Belgium (Ahistorical)
  • Galicia-Lodomeria (Plausible)
  • Transylvania (Plausible)
  • Naples
  • Sicily
  • Idel-Ural (Ahistorical)
  • Causasia (Ahistorical)
  • Balticia? (incl. Old prussian) (Ahistorical)
  • Finno-Ugria (Ahistorical) {only for uralic cultures}
  • Ukraine (Plausible)
  • White Ruthenia/Belarus (Plausible)
  • Western Roman Empire (Ahistorical)
  • Illyria (Ahistorical) {only for latin cultures}

Africa:
  • Sahara (Ahistorical)
  • Greater Egypt (Plausible)
  • Upper Egypt (Plausible)
  • Lower Egypt (Plausible)
  • Mutapa {only for bantu cultures}
  • Great Zimbabwe {only for bantu cultures}

Asia:
  • Mongol Empire (Plausible) {only for tungusic, turkic, and mongolic cultures}
  • Persian Empire (Plausible)
  • Turan (Ahistorical)
  • Khalistan (Ahistorical) {only for sikh}
  • Kurdistan (Plausible) {only for kurds}
  • Dzungaria (Plausible)
  • Korea
  • Shandong
  • Gansu
  • Liaoyang
  • Henan
  • Sichuan
  • Yunnan
  • Jiangxi
  • Jiangzhou
  • Jiangbei
  • Huguang
  • Guangxi
  • Guangdong
  • Guizhou
  • Shaanxi
  • Fujian
  • Zhejiang
  • Zhongshu
  • Lingbei
  • Liaodong
Edit: The Chinese formables should not retain their provincial name, but rather should change their name based upon what the name of which power formed it. The main point of their inclusion is to hasten the process of Chinese reunification, and allow certain states to easily gain claims on land often associated with where they are based. If you want more historical formables, then go to zerousi's post.

Oceania:
  • Polynesia (Ahistorical)
  • Micronesia (Plausible)
  • Australia
  • Aotearoa
  • Australasia (Ahistorical)
  • Hawai'i

Also, think about changing the current "africa" formable to "ifriqiya" if you make a formable for all of Africa.
Illyrian was not latin*
 
Hello,
i would love to be able to form ancient countries which has during the timelapse of the game their culture remaining as minorities such as kurds with Kurdistan or Media (with or without Mazdeism), asyrian with Assyria. Ancient Egypt while playing with an egyptian culture and a coptic religion...
 
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Do we have anything among the Anatolian principalities?

Karamanoğulları principality, Seljuk (historical)

Eretna principality, Anatolian Uyghur state (non-historical)

Dulkadir, danişment (non-historical)

Artuqids, Zengid, only Turkic cultural group (non-historical)

Karesi, menteşe, aydın, saruhan, candar principalities, chaka state (can only establish maritime principalities, deals with sea and colonialism) (not historical)
 
A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.
I remember you saying in the UK feedback post to me that you’d consider changing the name of, or having a game rule for the welsh formable. Is Prydain or Cambria still on the table?
 
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Wait @SaintDaveUK , how come Egypt and Livonia are formables? The Mamluks are called "Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt" on the map, and I'm pretty sure some of you said that if the Livonian order stops being a military order it will be just called Livonia, how does that work?
Maybe they are re-formables if Livonian Order or Mamluks die? Kind of like the "Embrace Kurlander Identity" from EU4
 
Hello,
i would love to be able to form ancient countries which has during the timelapse of the game their culture remaining as minorities such as kurds with Kurdistan or Media (with or without Mazdeism), asyrian with Assyria. Ancient Egypt while playing with an egyptian culture and a coptic religion...
I agree on Kurdistan, but why would the Christian Assyrians and Copts form the Pagan realms of Assyria and Ancient Egypt?
 
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Is Bharat and other Indian legacy Empires (Cholas, Palas, Satavahanas, etc) will be there?
Imo dynastic empires like the Cholas would make no sense to return after the dynasty they are named after are gone. I think it would be goofy.

On a related topic, I hope that if "dynastic" kingdoms and empires are overthrown by a Revolution and become republics, they would lose the dynastic part of their name because it would look very goofy otherwise, eg. "Revolutionary Turkey/Republic of Turkey" vs "Revolutionary Ottomans" or however the naming scheme works in this game. Same for cases like China
 
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Something I'd like would be Outremer. It's different enough from the Latin Empire that I think it warrants a separate tag. It could also be a purely cosmetic update to Jerusalem if they reach a certain size. I'd also like to petition for an Outremer culture to go along with the tag :p
 
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I do understand the concern about its existence, though I would not necessarily be opposed to it in certain circumstances
Agreed. As I said in other comments, I'm not opposed to A-H existing in general, just not as a formable. In my opinion, Austria-Hungary should be something that happens to Austria (almost as a punishment) and isn't achieved by it.
 
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Hello,
i would love to be able to form ancient countries which has during the timelapse of the game their culture remaining as minorities such as kurds with Kurdistan or Media (with or without Mazdeism), asyrian with Assyria. Ancient Egypt while playing with an egyptian culture and a coptic religion...
since kurds never had a state and werent even a thing till 19th century that would be unlikely and also we dont have any proof about medians are kurdish or not they were iranian
 
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Oy oy oy

After some time, I came back and see that finally the thing I was absolutely waiting for came.

With no further ado, Here is the list I woud like to see added to the list :

Formable
Tier
Note
Condition
Morocco (Maghreb)3 (Shouldn't be able to form Al Andalous)(re)formableControls Marrakesh and Fez
Vassalize or control all the tag of the Maghreb al Aksa Area
[Dynasty's adjectif] Califate4 (And tier 5 for "THE Caliphate" uniting the whole islamic world)PlausibleBe the most powerful muslim nation of your branch
- Controls Makka and Al Madina
or
- Controls at least 3 Areas
High religious legitimacy
Tamazgha4AhistoricalControls all of the "Tamazgha areas"
Be of the Amazigh Cuture Group
Have an Amazigh Language as a Court language
Have the "Amazigh Confederation" government reform
"The Chinas"
(Yuan, Qing, Qin, .... etc etc depending on the culture of the founding dynasty)
5 (I don't think that China would rename itself to something else)(re)formable// Depend on what cultural group forms China
Ifriqya (Tunisia)3(re)formableControls Tunis and Karrouane
Vassalize or control all the tag of the Maghreb al adna Area
Korea (Goryeo)4////
Japan4////
Atlantide5AhistoricalAs Guanch, conquer all of the Maghreb and Iberia
Assyria3Ahistorical//

Those are just some propositions, with some ideas about maybe the conditions to form them.
 
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