• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
Screenshot 2025-02-12 112612.png

Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



Screenshot 2025-02-12 121247.png

Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


1739361227786.png

And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124144.png

But it might be worth it…


Screenshot 2025-02-12 121702.png

Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
Last edited:
  • 184Like
  • 83Love
  • 12
  • 8
  • 3
Reactions:
A few possible suggestions

Crusader States

County of Tripoli


1739476389356.png

  • Tier 1
  • Plausible
Principality of Antioch

1739476575688.png
or
1739476663116.png


  • Tier 1
  • Plausible
County of Edessa
1739476797107.png

  • Tier 1
  • Plausible/Ahistorical

If we are able to restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem I think it could be fun to also allow players to form or create the other Crusader States. These formables would be an option for catholic realms particularly the Holy Orders. The titles for both Antioch and Tripoli ended up passing to the Kings of Cyprus so they would certainly have an interest in restoring the states if they were able.


Ireland

Leinster


1739477741429.png

  • Tier 1
  • Plausible

Munster

1739477841551.png

  • Tier 1
  • Plausible
Meath/Mide
1739477928503.png

  • Tier 1
  • Plausible
If Connaught and Ulster are formable, I think the other provinces of Ireland should also be formable. I have included Meath as during the era it was often also considered a province like the existing four.
 
  • 8Like
  • 3Love
  • 1
Reactions:
So Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia could be 1. tier formable countries from their respective area and Illyria could be 2. tier fromable country for Slavonian and Croatian or even Bosnian culture?

In a different way, the French Illyrian provinces were also named after this movement, despite the fact that their official languages were French and Slovenian.
exactly like that
 
Hi. It would be cool to have the chance to form Ukraine, Israel, Palestine for example.

Another issue that may have escaped me is having the chance to form a customizable country/nation, both in terms of the name to be given to the nation and the flag, culture and religion, as happens in Crusader Kings 3.
 
  • 6
Reactions:
I just gonna make a list here with some tags I'd think would be important/cool formales. Many probably have been said before but yeah not gonna read all comments.

Angevin Empire (4) [Plaus]
Bouillon (1)
Frankia/Carolingia (4) [Ahist]
Lotharingia (3) [Plaus or Ahist]
Burgundy (2)
Normandy (2) [Plaus]
Denmark (2)
Iceland (1) [Plaus]
Norway (2)
Bosnia (2)
Bulgaria (2)
Crete (1) [Plaus or Ahist] Note: There could be two versions, one for the emirate of crete and another for an christian controlled crete
Croatia (2)
Portugal (2)
Lombardy (2) [Plaus]
Milan (2)
Savoy (2)
(islamic) Sicilly (2) [Plaus or Ahist]
Avar Khaganate (2) [Ahist]
Hungary (2)
Lithuania (2)
Moravia (2)
Crimea (2)
Novgorod (2)
Kievan Rus (4) [Ahist]
Türkiye (3) [Ahist or Plaus]
Caliphate (5) [Plaus]
Aq Qoyunlu (2)
Circassia (2)
Tatarstan (3) [Plaus]
Volga Bulgaria (2) [Ahist]
Cumania (3) [Ahist]
Song (4) [Ahist]
Ming (4)
Qing (4)
China (4) [Plaus]
Pagan (2) [Ahist]
Bengal (3)
Aksum (3) [Ahist]
Somalia (2) [Plaus]
Numbia (2) [Plaus]
Benin (2)
Ghana (3) [Ahist]
Mali (3)
Denanke (2)
Songhai (2)
Kongo (3)
Iroquois (2)
Aztec (2)
Dalmatia (2)
Deccan (3)
Franconia (1)
Hanover (1)
Hawai'i (2)
Israel (2) [Plaus]
Helvetica (2) [Plaus]
Sargans (1)
Three Leagues (1)
Sieben Zenden (1)

Well that's all for now because I'm getting pretty tired of this. Anyway would be nice if at least some of them become formables. Also I hope many other people will also make such big lists. Cheers
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Nice stuff!

I just wondered about the logic behind having Mexico and USA (what are the prerequisites for this formable? Playing as a Spanish colony in the region?) as formables but not the other ex colonies (Cuba, Colombia, Argentina etc).
 
A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.
As always, i respect the devs and their work, but this Tinto Talk was a bit underwhealming, despite formable tags being a main feature of EU4 (surely a unrelated game ofc wink wink), the lack of some formables and the presence of some "ahistorical" ones is confusing. So please, correct me if i'm wrong, but if i'm playing as Brazil would i be able to follow history and become an Empire? And if so, what would be the nations tier? I'm a bit biased, but South America deserves some love as well. I find odd that the post colonial nations aren't formable tags, as i find that helps represent the acquired independence and difference of behavior many went through.
Suggesting some nations that should be formable tags:
- Gran Colombia
- Chile
- Bolívia
- Uruguay/Cisplatina, if a main culture is Portuguese/(Brazilian, if it even exist) cultures
- Guiana (if any nation manages to fully colonize all of the Guianas)
- Venezuela
- Colombia/New Granada

Some ahistorical or plausible suggestions:
- Lusitania (Maybe a alternative name for Spain)
- Iberia (If Iberia is fully one country)
- Portogalícia
- United Kingdom of Brazil, Portugal and the Algarves (A royal union that's led by Brazil. It existed, even if for a short time, so maybe it could be a goal for a player)
- The Angevin Kingdom/Empire or Dual Monarchy (EU4 has a wonderful set up for it, and i think it's mission tree contrast to GB is very cool, would love seeing it present again)
- Lotharingia
- Cornwall (please, if we have Carthago larp, we can have britonic Arthurian larp)
- The Carolingian Realms (This one could be a HRE alternative for a french monarchist playthrough. A powerful nation that could dominate western Europe.)
- The Caliphate
- Romania

And please, allow Celtic/Britonic cultures to form Great Britain (maybe with another name)!
 
  • 5
  • 2
Reactions:
I think that Yugoslavia should be a formable nation. I don't think it should be historical, as in real life, Yugoslavism only emerged due to foreign rule for centuries. However, it could be plausible or ahistorical. It will make playing in the Balkans a lot more fun in my opinion.
Yugoslavia makes no sense in the context of the game, the more logical formable would be Illyria or Illyrian provinces. Hell, Kingdom of Illyria even existed from 1816 until 1849 and before that we had the French Illyrian Provinces. Not to mention you could have other formables on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, such as Greater Hungary, Kingdom of Croatia, Kingdom of Bosnia, even Carantania, some form of Habsburg Empire (as a formable for Austria), etc.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions:
Il est clair qu'il faut ajouter des pays pouvant être entraînés avant la sortie. C'est étrange de ne pas voir de pays comme la France, la Hongrie, le Danemark, la Roumanie, la Bulgarie, la Serbie, etc. Tous les pays modernes devraient au moins pouvoir être entraînés, pas nécessairement pour du contenu supplémentaire, mais au moins pour le nom.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
As always, i respect the devs and their work, but this Tinto Talk was a bit underwhealming, despite formable tags being a main feature of EU4 (surely a unrelated game ofc wink wink), the lack of some formables and the presence of some "ahistorical" ones is confusing. So please, correct me if i'm wrong, but if i'm playing as Brazil would i be able to follow history and become an Empire? And if so, what would be the nations tier? I'm a bit biased, but South America deserves some love as well. I find odd that the post colonial nations aren't formable tags, as i find that helps represent the acquired independence and difference of behavior many went through.
Suggesting some nations that should be formable tags:
- Gran Colombia
- Chile
- Bolívia
- Uruguay/Cisplatina, if a main culture is Portuguese/(Brazilian, if it even exist) cultures
- Guiana (if any nation manages to fully colonize all of the Guianas)
- Venezuela
- Colombia/New Granada

Some ahistorical or plausible suggestions:
- Lusitania (Maybe a alternative name for Spain)
- Iberia (If Iberia is fully one country)
- Portogalícia
- United Kingdom of Brazil, Portugal and the Algarves (A royal union that's led by Brazil. It existed, even if for a short time, so maybe it could be a goal for a player)
- The Angevin Kingdom/Empire or Dual Monarchy (EU4 has a wonderful set up for it, and i think it's mission tree contrast to GB is very cool, would love seeing it present again)
- Lotharingia
- Cornwall (please, if we have Carthago larp, we can have britonic Arthurian larp)
- The Carolingian Realms (This one could be a HRE alternative for a french monarchist playthrough. A powerful nation that could dominate western Europe.)
- The Caliphate
- Romania

And please, allow Celtic/Britonic cultures to form Great Britain (maybe with another name)!

Celtic cultures should not be able to form Great Britain imo. Strips away the context of the tag being a union of the crown of Scotland and England.
 
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Suggestions for formables:

Kingdom of Slavonia
Kingdom of Croatia
Kingdom of Dalmatia
Kingdom of Bosnia
Kingdom of Illyria / Illyrian Provinces
Carantania
Habsburg Empire (as an advancement of Austria)
Kingdom of Romania
Bulgarian Empire
Kingdom of Greece (not as a continuation of the Byzantine Empire, rather as a separate national state)
Kingdom of Epirus, Kingdom of Nicaea, Kingdom of Thessalonica (rump states formed in the aftermath of the 4th Crusade)
Despotate of Morea
Duchy of Herzegovina / Duchy of Saint Sava

Funky formables:
THE TEMPLARS
Assyria
Babylon
Western Roman Empire
Phoenicia
Crete
Outremer
Scythia
Thrace
Numidia
Judaea
Albion
Kingdom of Soissons
Frankia
Swabia
Lotharingia
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
  • 2
Reactions:
I feel like Kingdom of Jerusalem being restricted to Orders or Cyrprus/Naples as a requirement should be lifted. I feel like, especially given we are "closer" to the Kingdom existing compared to EU4, if it gets conquered by christians within the first age or two should totally be plausible to reform for any christian state. Same with Africa(Tunisia), I feel like rather than it being a sicily-specific thing it should be any christian. Obviously it should probably in both cases also require moving your capital to Jerusalem/Africa respectively(there could probably also be an ability to specifically release a Crusader State after a conquest as well).
 
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Resident Africa poster. Additional formable countries could include:

StateHistoricityTerritory / How To FormAdditional Comments
AsantehistoricalMost of modern Ghana, Eastern Cote D'Ivoire & part of Western Togo
DahomeyhistoricalAbout the Southern half of Benin
Oyo EmpirehistoricalEastern Benin Republic, about 1/3 of Southern NigeriaThe version of Oyo which exists on the current dev map is far too large for the period. The formable country would represent that enlarged form.
SegouhistoricalNiger from South-West of Segou to near TimbuktuForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
Sennar / FunjhistoricalUnite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a preferably Muslim power
Massina / Hamdulahi CaliphatehistoricalRoughly from Segou or Djenne to TimbuktuForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
KaabuuhistoricalWestern "half" of Guinea and part of southern SenegalForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
BugandahistoricalNorth of Lake Victoria, roughly Kitara to the lake.Might only be worth adding of the Lake Victoria area is further fleshed out.
Madagascar / United ImerinahistoricalAll of MadagascarBasically just an official representation of a fully-united Madagascar.
Egyptian EmpirehistoricalEgypt, Sudan (roughly minus Darfur) and South SudanRepresents Mohammed Ali’s conquests of Sudan & South Sudan, but might be better named something more neutral incase Sudan or S. Sudan is the conqueror.
KonghistoricalMost of Cote d'IvoireMight be better implemented as a “corporate” entity uniting merchant groups, as this is essentially what it was, historically.
Liberiahistorical/plasuibleMesurado, Sinoe, Bassau, Maryland in Africa unitedMight not be the most “sensitive” to implement mechanically speaking.
Al HabashplausibleSuccessfully unite “Ethiopia” under a muslim power.A reference to Imam Ahmed’s attempted conquest of the Ethiopian state.
Sierra-LeoneahistoricalRoughly the modern countryNot sure how this would be implemented, reasonably.
AksumahistoricalNorthern Ethiopia as far south as Shewa; Eritrea; Djibouti, Dahlak Islands; Yemen(?); Soqotra(?); Eastern Desert(?)Though Aksum had been in decline for 400 years, the state only disappeared during the 9th-10th centuries. Temporally speaking, it’s about equally distant as the Roman Empire.
YorubalandahistoricalSouthern Nigeria, including Lagos, and potentially Benin(?), but excluding Igboland.Uniting all of Yorubaland’s squabbling city-states might make for a fun objective, especially if West Africa is further fleshed out.
Saadi EmpireahistoricalMorocco, Iberia, Niger bend to Senegambia.Achieve the ambitions of Ahmad Al-Mansur and unite the Western edge of the dar al-Islam… then discover that there is a whole bunch of other land west of it.
NubiaahistoricalUnite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a Christian/Coptic power.Christian corrollary to Sennar/Funj.
Continental AfricaahistoricalAfrican continent, Madagascar, and Comorosa dev reply to this thread seems to indicate that the “Africa” on the list is actually roughly the territory of Ifriqiyya/Tunisia.
Great LakesahistoricalAll land around the African great lakes.Would be best if this region were further fleshed out.
Al-SudanahistoricalThe entire Savannah and Sahel belt are united and primarily Muslim.
Indian Ocean EmpireahistoricalEast African Coast, Islands, Western Indian Coast, maybe Persian Gulf & Arabian coast.You have united the coastal lands of the Indian Ocean to form a formidable naval empire dominating the trade of the waves.
Swahili Coast or East African CoastahistoricalUnite the entire Swahili & Somali Coasts, plus maybe Madagascar & ComorosScaled back version of the Indian Ocean Empire concept.
MaghrebahistoricalUnite Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya(?), at least as far as Tripoli.
Kushahistorical (absurd)Unite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a “pagan” powerThe collapse of the great Kushite empire left its people scattered. Generations after the collapse of that state, its distant memory has been revived by an unlikely group of tribes...
 
  • 2Love
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Both Byzantium and Rome are in tier iV, so does that mean Ai Byzantium will not form Rome?
insert annoying Byzantium is Roman so this is redundant :mad: comment

As always, i respect the devs and their work, but this Tinto Talk was a bit underwhealming, despite formable tags being a main feature of EU4 (surely a unrelated game ofc wink wink), the lack of some formables and the presence of some "ahistorical" ones is confusing. So please, correct me if i'm wrong, but if i'm playing as Brazil would i be able to follow history and become an Empire? And if so, what would be the nations tier? I'm a bit biased, but South America deserves some love as well. I find odd that the post colonial nations aren't formable tags, as i find that helps represent the acquired independence and difference of behavior many went through.
"Nations" (as in, nation states) do not really exist in the time period of the game, aside from (arguably) Spain, the US, and France. Adding most "nations" would be ahistorical. "Ahistorical" formable countries just refer to formable countries which could be interesting or fun, but which did not form historically and were not likely to form (ie: plausible) in our own history. These would presumably not be enabled by default.
 
  • 3
Reactions:
Oromia2Plausible
Yorubaland2Plausible
Uswahilini3Plausible (it's a unifier for the Swahili states)
I think "plausible" is for states which actually had a reasonable shot at forming in real history. These are probably better slotted as "ahistorical", and I honestly am not sure if Oromia is really warranted at all, lest we start getting into the realm of "we should make all culture groups have unified ahistorical states. Which would probably not be very fun, frankly.

Broadly, I feel like "ethnic unification states" are best reserved for regions and/or peoples which actually had consistent and/or significant histories of semi-unification events (ie: a ruler conquers half of the "ethnic" territory, or achieves a very brief total or near-total unification at an important time). For the Swahili and Yoruba, you at least have multiple states which conquered or dominated substantial swathes of the "ethnic" lands of each (Kilwa, Oyo, etc), even if they didn't pursue or achieve total unification.
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions: