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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


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The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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i would like to propose the addition of an ahistorical(maybe plausible?) Tier 3 Benelux option. As during and after WW2 it was a close politico-economic-union. Whilst it didn't form a true single state, these three countries do have moments they were unified before, although it was brief: The United Kingdom of the Netherlands(after Napoleon 1815-1830)
 
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The concept of pan-Celticism is a modern one so it will be hard to find a single name that works perfectly in the historical context. But the name "Celtica" does have some currency as it was coined by pan-Celticist historian Peter Berresford Ellis to discuss his proposed Celtic nation and has been used by others since.
could albion be a better name
 
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Not a fan of Europa as a tag. I feel it "legitimizes" something like a continent-conquest a bit too much. IDK it's hard to explain but it turns something like that into something that seems intended to be done, when I feel it shouldn't be. Should it be possible? Sure(though extremely, extremely difficult). But the existence of the tag makes it something you can do for fun into something "intended".

Also not a fan of a lot of peoples proposals for like, pan-slavic states or pan-much of anything. Nationalism is the realm of Vicky 3, not EU.
idk everything under the ahistorical tag i really would'n be that bottered by. In the other categories i could understand the sentiment a bit more.
 
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Isn't that just Greater Albania (Shqipëria e Madhe)? Or are you talking about the revival of a hypothetical Illyrian state from antiquity?
No. "Greater Albania" is a modern desire which arose after the partitioning of Albanian lands to It's neighbours - after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

I'm talking about the ancient Illyrian people, of which it's mostly accepted, modern Albanians derive from. Illyria was unified against the Romans into a state. Seeing how Albanians are their descendants - i'd say it would be a good formable nation to create as Albanians.

Now, I understand there are some south slaves that claim to be Illyrians - this would be the same as Turks claiming to be descendants of the Byzantium...
 
Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europae linguarum, latinae, italicae, germanicae, dalmaticae et ungaricae (1595.) by Faust Vrančić( Croat)
Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo published in 1604. by Bartol Kašić (Croat),
In both dictionaries, the Croatian language is translated as Illyrian and/or Dalmatian.
The first coat of arms of Croatia until the beginning of the 11th century was the moon and star (Illyrian coat of arms)
I am not claiming that Croats are Illyrians, but Croats used Illyrians crests, they still use them today, they have also called their language Illyrian throughout history, they genetically belong to the Paleo-Balkan population, even the name Croat is not of Slavic origin. The Croatian national awakening in the 19th century was not called the Croatian but the Illyrian National Revival, and this idea existed among Croats throughout history until the emergence of Pan-Slavism (20th century).
The "Illyrian coat of arms" is a South Slavic invention - Ancient Illyria didn't have this.

Please bear in mind that the region of modern Croatia also inhabited Dalmatians (Latinised Illyrians) at the time and likely holds influence in the Croatian language. Using imagery and promoting regional history from ancient people does not make them the same people. Just like Bulgarians aren't Thracians, Egyptians aren't ancient Egyptians, and modern Americans aren't Native Americans.
 
At least Kingdom of Hanover (rank 2?) should be added so that, similar to Saxony and Prussia in the east and Bavaria in the south, it can be a Goal for minors of north/west HRE.

Some other fun Tags I think would be fun to have, but probably will not see the light of day are:
Kingdom of Westphalia, (rank 1-2)
duchy / kingdom of Eastphalia, (ahistorical/fiction just to counter westphalia lol) (rank 1-2)
stem duchy of Old-Saxony (ahistorical, incorporates westphalia and eastphalia) (rank 2-3)
 
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A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.
This makes me curious, why was it necessary for Canada, Mexico and USA then?
 
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Germany should not be a stepping stone towards Holy Roman Empire (-of the German Nation). At least it wouldn't make much sense. The unification of "Germany" as such was a consequence of the dissolution of the HRE.
 
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The "Illyrian coat of arms" is a South Slavic invention - Ancient Illyria didn't have this.

Please bear in mind that the region of modern Croatia also inhabited Dalmatians (Latinised Illyrians) at the time and likely holds influence in the Croatian language. Using imagery and promoting regional history from ancient people does not make them the same people. Just like Bulgarians aren't Thracians, Egyptians aren't ancient Egyptians, and modern Americans aren't Native Americans.
If you had read what I wrote, you would have noticed that I stated that I am not claiming that Croats are Illyrians, which they are not, but in that period: I have already stated everything.
In Croatian heraldry, the Dawn Star / Sun is recorded as a separate coat of arms, which actually coincides with the etymology of the name Illyrians; Il, Ilios, Helios; Sun. In heraldry, it is the coat of arms of the Frankopans of Krk from Croatia and Bosnia, which is confirmed by the Castilian Franciscan and travel writer in his work ”Libro del Conosçimiento de todos los reinos” (around 1385)
We find this coat of arms on prehistoric stećci, this symbol appears in our medieval heraldry as the coat of arms of Illyria and is present in the coats of arms of numerous Croatian noble families.
I read historical documents and sources (scientific works based on: archaeological research, historical documents, genetic research, and other historical materials) I definitely do not assume anything about history, but present historical facts. But as an academic I can confirm that it is a historical fabrication that you stated that the Illyrian coat of arms was an invention of the South Slavs.
PS: if you want to learn more about this topic we can arrange a lecture, because I believe that this forum is really not the place to prove anything, let alone to certain people who are indoctrinated with nationalistic characteristics.
 
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That's a good point. But I do think there should be an alternative for them (which Celtica doesn't seems to be, and is, imo, a bit cringey)

You disagreed with one of my suggestions of a Kingdom of Dál Riada which was a Gaelic Kingdom that spanned over Ireland and Scotland and that actually existed. My guess that Celtica is a united all Celts tag which I do not think is "Cringey". I prefer if it was just a endonym based on the Dialect/Language that formed it, as Gaeilge --> (na) Ceiltigh. Perhaps you are right but not Great Britain it doesnt make sense.
 
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A lot of the Colonial nations will naturally be called that way and won't need to use the formable system. There's definitely a few good suggestions here that should be formables that we can add though.


If that’s the case what makes Mexico more formable than Brazil? What if the player decides to make a few colonies in the same area, which one would be consideredd the colonial nation and the tree which it forms? Will it be the same name for the whole game when it releases or does it just automatically become the nation that’s supposed to be there?
 
Considering how Albania would most probably use the flag of the House that united it (In our timeline, that was the Kastrioti, which is why Albania still uses the Kastrioti flag today), I think Albania's formable should also adopt the flag of the house that unifies it.
Also, if it hasn't been already planned, an event regarding Skanderbeg which leads to the formation of Albania/The League of Lezhë under his reign would be great if Albania at the time the event is supposed to take place isn't Albania formed, but is either under foreign rule or still divided into separate principalities. If Albania in the start date is formed and independent, I think it would make sense for a different event to take off making Skanderbeg a general and noble.
 
A few corrections/suggestions for the India ones:
* Rajput should be Rajputana; Rajput is the ethnolinguistic group, Rajputana is the nation/ geographic area.
* Gujarat and Bahmani are misspelt as Gujurat and Bahamis (unless you meant the bahamas by that one). But anglicisation of indian words is not really standardised, so these aren't technically wrong per se.
* It's kinda weird having both a Deccan and a Bahmanis (again assuming it wasn't bahamas) since they were both the same thing: It was the Deccan Sultanate, and Bahmani was the dynasty that ruled it, before it split. In case Deccan is just a Hindu/ generic non muslim version of a south indian uniter, Dravida or Kishkindhya would be far better. Even Carnatic, though there was a specific sultanate of that name towards the end of the game's time period. If deccan is more central indian (seemingly unnecessary, given marathas and bahmanis already occupy basically that same area but idk), adding one of these as a south indian formable would be nice.
* Maybe a (aspirational) Chola Empire, having parts of the south-east indian coast as well as parts of indonesia/the moluccas ?
* Maybe a Kushans, buddhist country in north west india and central asia?