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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

Screenshot 2025-02-12 113332.png
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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 124554.png

Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


Screenshot 2025-02-12 123920.png

The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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6) Intermarium -> Ahistorical. An interwar failed attempt of an alliance. This is ridiculous yes, but we also have "Europa" in game and Ahistorical can be turned off.


Intermarium.png


Prospectively a federation of Central and Eastern European countries, the post-World War I Intermarium plan pursued by Piłsudski sought to recruit to the proposed federation the Baltic states (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia), Finland, Belarus, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia. The Polish name Międzymorze (from między, "between"; and morze, "sea"), meaning "Between-Seas", was rendered into Latin as Intermarium.
 
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Scandinavia3Plausible
If you consider Scandinavia plausible you may as well just drop the ahistorical setting.

Even among those still publicly expressibg support for Scandinavism (which emerged in the late 1830s) in the late 19th century, those supporting pan-Scandinavism and those considering a unified Scandinavia a realistic goal was in the minority.

I also struggle to see why Maya wouldn't be categorised as ahistorical, assuming it is a unified Maya tag.

Also, why is there no Aztec/Nahua Empire? Do you consider that covered by the same tag as the presumably modern state of Mexico tag?

That said, I will be playing the historical only setting if I ever play the game.
 
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Hello, I only logged here to drop two stupid ahistorical formables from Poland. Both are based on books from project Ceasar time period. My idea is if people of a time fantasized about such "formables" why we can't make it happen in game. I believe those are not commonly known anywhere outside Poland.

First one is Sarmatia. Polish nobility believed they were descendants of ancient Sarmatians, which ruled over all Slavic lands of a time, at least in their heads. Whole concept is not connected to actual Sarmatians but based on the work of Alessandro Guanini Sarmatiae Europeae descriptio from 1578 printed in Latin in Speyer (modern Germany) and later translated into Polish and printed in 1611 in Cracow. Book includes many descriptions about countries and lords of eastern Europe and of course the ruler of Poland is the best (because he paid for this book) and rules over everything (because he paid). Whole concept of Sarmatia was much bigger than PLC actually was at the time and the idea expanded even more in later years in many other books. The idea of Sarmatia has nothing to do with actual Sarmatian people but was supposed to show the right to rule over Moscow and all eastern lands.

Fun Fact: the book Sarmatiae Europeae descriptio is available online in Polish and Latin.

Second one is the Ancient Lechia Empire. That one is even more nonsense. Another creation of fantasy based on a book printed in Warsaw in 1825 called "Kronika Prokosza". The book is supposed to be a chronicle of the archbishop of Cracow from the X century and mentions a great empire before christianization of Slavic lands. The empire fought back Alexander the Great and was a cause of the collapse of Rome. The empire covered the territory of whole central and eastern Europe, from Ural mountains to the Rhine river and Mediterranean Sea (today they will border Greece, Italy, France, Denmark and Finland). The book was called a forgery soon after publication. Manuscript was found in Vilnius with a date 1764 and was written by Przybyslaw Dyjamentowski, who specialized in forgery of education diplomas and nobility family trees so the story sounds veeery legit. The book published in Warsaw was probably kind of a joke to ridicule the elites but it lives with its own life till today.
 
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Hello, I only logged here to drop two stupid ahistorical formables from Poland. Both are based on books from project Ceasar time period. My idea is if people of a time fantasized about such "formables" why we can't make it happen in game. I believe those are not commonly known anywhere outside Poland.

First one is Sarmatia. Polish nobility believed they were descendants of ancient Sarmatians, which ruled over all Slavic lands of a time, at least in their heads. Whole concept is not connected to actual Sarmatians but based on the work of Alessandro Guanini Sarmatiae Europeae descriptio from 1578 printed in Latin in Speyer (modern Germany) and later translated into Polish and printed in 1611 in Cracow. Book includes many descriptions about countries and lords of eastern Europe and of course the ruler of Poland is the best (because he paid for this book) and rules over everything (because he paid). Whole concept of Sarmatia was much bigger than PLC actually was at the time and the idea expanded even more in later years in many other books. The idea of Sarmatia has nothing to do with actual Sarmatian people but was supposed to show the right to rule over Moscow and all eastern lands.

Fun Fact: the book Sarmatiae Europeae descriptio is available online in Polish and Latin.

Second one is the Ancient Lechia Empire. That one is even more nonsense. Another creation of fantasy based on a book printed in Warsaw in 1825 called "Kronika Prokosza". The book is supposed to be a chronicle of the archbishop of Cracow from the X century and mentions a great empire before christianization of Slavic lands. The empire fought back Alexander the Great and was a cause of the collapse of Rome. The empire covered the territory of whole central and eastern Europe, from Ural mountains to the Rhine river and Mediterranean Sea (today they will border Greece, Italy, France, Denmark and Finland). The book was called a forgery soon after publication. Manuscript was found in Vilnius with a date 1764 and was written by Przybyslaw Dyjamentowski, who specialized in forgery of education diplomas and nobility family trees so the story sounds veeery legit. The book published in Warsaw was probably kind of a joke to ridicule the elites but it lives with its own life till today.
Lechia could have formed if one of the countries with a culture that speaks the Lechian language and owns Polabia and Poland.
 
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Shouldn't we be able to form Bulgaria (tier 2)?

Just an idea, but I also think it would be cool if Bulgaria could move up to tier 3 if it controls most of the territories of the Second Bulgarian Empire or the First Bulgarian Empire. At that point, the tier change would create interesting flavour, as the Bulgarian Empire would no longer consist mainly of Bulgarians but also include Romans/Greeks and Vlachs. There could be unique events related to their integration into the empire and how Bulgaria now has the strength to expand east and south into the former lands of Eastern Rome, ultimately taking its place as the dominant power in the region.

Maybe there could even be some flavour around making Constantinople, or should I say Tsarigrad:cool:, the capital of this reborn Bulgarian Empire.

Second Bulgarian Empire:
Screenshot 2025-02-15 at 15.08.31.png

First Bulgarian Empire:
Screenshot 2025-02-16 at 11.56.37.png

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Some ideas for additional formables:
Austria-Hungary (plausible) - already in EU4, existed since 1848-ish
Great Moravia (ahistorical) - already in EU4, existed in early middle ages
Gaul/Gallia/Bro-C'hall (ahistorical) - replaces France for Britanny?
Sarmatia Europaea (ahistorical) - PLC wet dream
Iberian Union (plausible) - teoretically existed for a while, a mega-Spain, basically
Sweden-Norway (plausible) - existed IRL as a PU between Sweden and Norway (duh)
Old Saxony/Great Saxony (ahistorical) - bigger version of Saxony before Charlemenge annexed them
Franconia
Swabia
Hesse
Brandenburg (if they were to ever shatter)
Hannover
...
here actually you could add a lot of HRE minor titles that got destroyed and re-created)
...
Romania (plausible) - alsmost formed under Michael the Brave
Ukraine (plausible) - the logical endpoint of cossack uprisings
Ruthenia (plausible) - technically formed during the game span by Galicia-Volhynia when they converted to Catholicism and got named "kingdom of Ruthenia"
Mongol Empire (ahistorical) - as a re-creation
Antioch, Edess, Tripoli (all plausible like Jerusalem) - other crusader states
The Levant (ahistorical) - union of the above
The Caliphate (plausible) - the Ottomans argualby held the title
Rheged (ahistorical) - possible formable for a Cumbric culture, that should still be more or less around
Pritann (Britannia) (ahistorical) - GB for the Celts
Rhineland (plausible bordering on ahistorical) - can also represent a unified Rhine League
Westphallia (plausble)
West Rome (ahistorical)


That all I could brainstorm quickly
For Romania, its not even about Michael the Great. Romania's formation was contemporary to the unifications of Germany and Italy. If Germany and Italy are in and are under the plausible cathegory, Romania should aswell. Romania even formed before Germany and around the same exact time as Italy. Wallachia and Moldavia united in 1859 under the name ”The United Principalities of Moldova and Wallachia” and adopted the name ”Romania” in 1866. Italy was proclaimed in 1861 and the German Empire in 1871.
 
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If you consider Scandinavia plausible you may as well just drop the ahistorical setting.

Even among those still publicly expressibg support for Scandinavism (which emerged in the late 1830s) in the late 19th century, those supporting pan-Scandinavism and those considering a unified Scandinavia a realistic goal was in the minority.
The game starts in 1337 and the Kalmar Union, had it not collapsed and remained together as a collection of titles like Spain or Poland-Lithuania, is basically what a unified Scandinavia would have been. 19th century Scandinavian is less relevant.
 
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I love this system, especially allowing Celtaboos/Romeaboos to have their meme nation while also acknowledging that's a completely ridiculous idea. My one concern is that ahistorical tags won't get any additional flavor down the line.
 
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I have some ideas for formables:

- The Unified Islamic Caliphate as a tier 5 Ahistorical formable for Islamic nations,
- The Carolingian Empire as a tier 4 Ahistorical formable for uniting France and the HRE.
- Gran-Colombia as a tier 4 historical formable for northern South America
- The Pagan Kingdom as a tier 2 or 3 Ahistorical formable for Myanmar
- The Sassanid empire as a tier 4 Ahistorical formable for Persia,if Carthage is a formable, the Sassanids could be one as well
- Vinland as a tier 2 or 3 Ahistorical formable for North America, or Scandinavia if they don't make their territories in North America a Colonial nation.
- The Kyivan Rus as a Tier 4 Ahistorical Formable for Eastern Europe
- Mapungubwe as a tier 3 historical formable for southeast Africa
- A unified Polynesia as tier 4 Ahistorical formable for Oceania
 
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NusantaraMalay EmpireMaritime South East AsiaTier 4Ahistorical
The Four Oirats/Oirat ConfederationMongol KingdomWestern MongoliaTier 3Historical
MoghulistanPersian KingdomTarim BasinTier 2Plausible
AltishahrNon-Horde Turkic KingdomTarim BasinTier 2Plausible
AzawadTuareg KingdomMali, centered on TimbuktuTier 2Plausible
AsantemanAkan KingdomAsante + 3 other provinces in West AfricaTier 1Historical
BeninWest African KingdomControl 3/4 provinces in BeninTier 1Historical
SuluIslamic SultanateControl over provinces around the Sea of SuluTier 1Historical
MaguindanaoIslamic SultanateControl 4/5 provinces in MindanaoTier 1Historical
PrydainWelsh KingdomWelsh variant of Great Britain, gives claims on Brittany instead of IrelandTier 3Ahistorical
 
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