Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

[zeblad]

I really wish we could start as a south american tribe from the brazilian region and eventually modernize, conquer the entire eastern half of south america and form Pindorama (the word Tupi people use to describe that region). It would probaby look something like the Aztec empire in Mexico or the Inca empire in western South America. Precolombian Brazil always seemed like an afterthought in paradox games, so this is a great opportunity to at least give a chance for that region to prosper before the europeans arrive. There could be some sort of mechanics in which brazilian tribes incorporate institutions from neighboring more advanced civilizations like the ones from the Andes, idk.

Another interesting formable nation would be the Quilombo dos Palmares. Quilombos were independent communities made out of previously enslaved people who fled from captivity. The Quilombo dos Palmares (1590 - 1690 aprox.) was the biggest quilombo in colonial Brazil and was led by Zumbi dos Palmares, one of the greatest personalities in brazilian history and a symbol of resistance against slavery.

From a business standpoint, it would make sense to give the brazilian region some more flavor, since it is one of the largest markets for games and many people here would like to play as the natives.

 

[Inzano]

I have now expanded my proposal, which I published at the beginning, and added a proposal for a 2nd tier of formative countries.

Proposal for the 1. tier formable countries:

Styria

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Styria.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Slovenian, Danube Bavarian or South Bavarian.

Carniola

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Carniola.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Slovenian.

Carinthia

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Carinthia.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Slovenian or South Bavarian.

Salzburg

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Salzburg.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian or South Bavarian.

Tyrol

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 60% of the area of Tyrol and Trentino.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian or South Bavarian.

Austria above the Enns / Upper Austria

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Upper Austria.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian.

Austria below the Enns / Lower Austria

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Lower Austria.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian.

Lower Bavaria

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Lower Bavaria.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian.

Upper Bavaria

- You are not a formed country of tier 1.
- You control 80% of the area of Upper Bavaria.
- Primary or Accepted culture: Danube Bavarian.


Proposal for the 2. tier formable countries:

Slovenia / Greater Carinthia

- You control 70% of the area of Carniola, Carinthia and Styria.
- Primary culture: Slovenian.

Austria

- You control 80% of the area of Lower Austria and Upper Austria.
- Primary culture: Danube Bavarian or South Bavarian.

Bavaria

- You control 80% of the area of Lower Bavaria and Upper Bavaria.
- Primary culture: Danube Bavarian.

 

[Thales von Dasos]

It will be better for the Golden Horde to be at the same tier as the Ilkhanate at tier 4, since they were diplomatically at the same rank. Concerning Mongolia, if it just represents the core part of Mongolia, then it should better be at tier 3 like the Manchus.

I don't think tiers represent anything beside the ability not to form nations of a lower tier (like end-game tag in EU4)

 

[Pellucid]

Wait, how is Rome ahistorical but Rum isn't? They're literally the same thing.

 

[ArVass]

Wait, how is Rome ahistorical but Rum isn't? They're literally the same thing.

The Roman Empire (as in the unified empire centered on Rome) stopped existing almost 1000 years before the timeframe. The Sultanate of Rum dissolved only very recently and it is still in memory at start (as in, there are people living in 1337 who remember living under it). They are not the same thing at all

 

[Pellucid]

The Roman Empire (as in the unified empire centered on Rome) stopped existing almost 1000 years before the timeframe. The Sultanate of Rum dissolved only very recently and it is still in memory at start (as in, there are people living in 1337 who remember living under it). They are not the same thing at all

OK, but it's pretty odd to say that it's legitimate for a Sunni Beylik to call themselves Rome (since that's what the Anatolian Greeks they conquered called themselves), but it's not legitimate for those same Anatolian Greeks to call themselves Rome.

 

[Birchinjaro]

since kurds never had a state and werent even a thing till 19th century that would be unlikely and also we dont have any proof about medians are kurdish or not they were iranian

"In the early Middle Ages, the Kurds sporadically appear in Arabic sources, though the term was still not being used for a specific people; instead it referred to an amalgam of nomadic western Iranian tribes, who were distinct from Persians. However, in the High Middle Ages, the Kurdish ethnic identity gradually materialized, as one can find clear evidence of the Kurdish ethnic identity and solidarity in texts of the 12th and 13th centuries,[115] though, the term was also still being used in the social sense.[116] Since 10th century, Arabic texts including al-Masudi's works, have referred to Kurds as a distinct linguistic group."

Kurds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Might aswell include Kurdistan for regional flavour,if you didn't you'd have a hole in the region with no formable

 

[Itutu]

Maybe instead of magical modifiers being unlocked right as you form a new nation, you instead unlock the ability to *earn* the modifier. I think that could be a good way of offering unique flavour and rewards for country formables. If you really want to balance, they could then be taken away, or swapped, if you switch to a similar tier.

Also I find it weird that y'all didn't include more countries in tier 5. I feel like I know what y'all were getting at, like the ultimate goal or something, but I mean honestly no AI is ever going to form Europa and players can switch between same tiers anyways, so move the bigger empires up there. It's weird that Great Britain and Spain are so low, like this was the peak of their time. A huge Spain AI shouldn't be able to upgrade or form into Russia. That doesn't feel right.

 

[Thales von Dasos]

OK, but it's pretty odd to say that it's legitimate for a Sunni Beylik to call themselves Rome (since that's what the Anatolian Greeks they conquered called themselves), but it's not legitimate for those same Anatolian Greeks to call themselves Rome.

Anatolian Greeks would probably call themselves Rhomaioi aka Byzantines, and Byzantium is a (re-)formable

 

[DryBonesSamu]

Hello!
I wanted to suggest an idea regarding the naming of formable nations, inspired by a discussion that has already been started by user Birchinjaro.

Currently, one of the proposed formable nations is the "Kingdom of the Two Sicilies," but historically, this name would not be accurate for the period covered by the new game. Here’s why:

1) Historically, the kings of Naples and Sicily did not aspire to the title of "King of the Two Sicilies," but rather to that of "King of Sicily."
From a geopolitical perspective, after the Peace of Caltabellotta (1302), there were technically two Kingdoms of Sicily—one officially recognized as such and the other not:

1) On the island of Sicily, there was the Kingdom of Trinacria.
2) In Southern Italy, there was the Kingdom of Sicily (commonly referred to by historians as the "Kingdom of Naples").

The rulers of both states (Frederick III and his successors on the island, and Robert of Anjou, his predecessors, and successors on the mainland) all aimed to reunify Sicily and Southern Italy to restore the legacy of the Norman-Swabian kingdom, creating a single state and maintaining the title once held by Roger II and Frederick II of Swabia.

2) The title "Rex Utriusque Siciliae" (King of Both Sicilies) was first used by Alfonso V of Aragon in 1442 but did not become stable until 1815.

The true political unification under Ferdinand I of the Two Sicilies only occurred in 1815. Before that, two Kingdoms of Sicily existed:

1) The Kingdom of Sicily "this side of the Strait" (commonly known as the Kingdom of Naples).
2) The Kingdom of Sicily "beyond the Strait" (the Kingdom on the island of Sicily).

These two kingdoms remained separate entities, despite often sharing the same ruler.

3) For historical accuracy, I think it is best to:

1) Rename the “Kingdom of Sicily” (island) to “Kingdom of Trinacria”.
2) Keep the “Kingdom of Naples” or rename it "Kingdom of Sicily”.
3) Modify the name of formable nation: the “Kingdom of the Two Sicilies” should be a later change (e.g., through a decision or event), while the initial unification should simply be called the “Kingdom of Sicily”.

Of course, it is just my opinion, but thank you for your time, and sorry for the long message!

 

[Marus04]

Content and formables to west africa would be great!

 

[zeruosi]

reBurst I'm fed up with your respect disagreement. You are just a stupid racist. You just hate Chinese people or other Chinese things. You just like to order many X's, and you continue to click your poor X number. A mouse like peeper in the dark ditch!

 

[ArVass]

reBurst I'm fed up with your respect disagreement. You are just a stupid racist. You just hate Chinese people or other Chinese things. You just like to order many X's, and you continue to click your poor X number. A mouse like peeper in the dark ditch!

Does seem like a troll or backup account. No posts, no comments, and unviewable profile lol

 

[zeruosi]

Does seem like a troll or backup account. No posts, no comments, and unviewable profile lol

I'm just getting emotional because of the HOI4 log just now....
When I was very angry, it was published in some posts that had no political affiliation or only expressed my own preferences, respectfully disagreeing.

 

[Enkidou51]

Louisiana, Texas, California, Western Roman Empire, Quebec, Alaska, the countries of South and Central America, Alaska, Cascadia, Austrasia-Lotharingia, Danelaw, Vinland, Indochina, Carthage, Ruthenia, Samo, Occitania, Etruria, Aquitaine, Picardy, Romagna, Leon, Galicia, Andalusia are missing.

 

[domagoj222]

Illyrians weren't south slavic...

Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europae linguarum, latinae, italicae, germanicae, dalmaticae et ungaricae (1595.) by Faust Vrančić( Croat)
Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo published in 1604. by Bartol Kašić (Croat),
In both dictionaries, the Croatian language is translated as Illyrian and/or Dalmatian.
The first coat of arms of Croatia until the beginning of the 11th century was the moon and star (Illyrian coat of arms)
I am not claiming that Croats are Illyrians, but Croats used Illyrians crests, they still use them today, they have also called their language Illyrian throughout history, they genetically belong to the Paleo-Balkan population, even the name Croat is not of Slavic origin. The Croatian national awakening in the 19th century was not called the Croatian but the Illyrian National Revival, and this idea existed among Croats throughout history until the emergence of Pan-Slavism (20th century).

 

[GolceBanana]

Commonwealth of Three Nations / Polish–Lithuanian–Ruthenian Commonwealth (plausible)

Very realistic formable which always was missing for me from EU4, as it actually was created historically, but fell due to weakness and infighting of its constituents at the time.

Small historical background can be found on wikipedia, under Treaty of Hadiach. Forum wouldn't allow me to post a link.

Coat of arms:

Logically should be one tier higher than Poland-Lithuania.

Would be super cool to be able to succesfully do treaty of Hadiach in Project Ceasar and I think it would give a lot of flavour to later game in the region.

 

[Inzano]

Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europae linguarum, latinae, italicae, germanicae, dalmaticae et ungaricae (1595.) by Faust Vrančić( Croat)
Institutionum linguae illyricae libri duo published in 1604. by Bartol Kašić (Croat),
In both dictionaries, the Croatian language is translated as Illyrian and/or Dalmatian.
The first coat of arms of Croatia until the beginning of the 11th century was the moon and star (Illyrian coat of arms)
I am not claiming that Croats are Illyrians, but Croats used Illyrians crests, they still use them today, they have also called their language Illyrian throughout history, they genetically belong to the Paleo-Balkan population, even the name Croat is not of Slavic origin. The Croatian national awakening in the 19th century was not called the Croatian but the Illyrian National Revival, and this idea existed among Croats throughout history until the emergence of Pan-Slavism (20th century).

So Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia could be 1. tier formable countries from their respective area and Illyria could be 2. tier fromable country for Slavonian and Croatian or even Bosnian culture?

In a different way, the French Illyrian provinces were also named after this movement, despite the fact that their official languages were French and Slovenian.

 

[RageRoyale]

I think that Yugoslavia should be a formable nation. I don't think it should be historical, as in real life, Yugoslavism only emerged due to foreign rule for centuries. However, it could be plausible or ahistorical. It will make playing in the Balkans a lot more fun in my opinion.

 

[Viral12]

I think a cool ahistorical formable only achievable by player nations would be a reformed Greater Cahokia / Mississipia tag for the Mississippi river valley. If Maya is a formable, then a similar city state system based on the real life Mississippian culture would be cool too. Implying an ahistorical outcome where instead of collapsing and reverting back to a nomadic lifestyle, the semi-centralized cities of Cahokia, Serpent Mound, etc., form together into a stronger proto-kingdom in the late 14th century.

This region doesn't get much love from medievalists despite being, at the time of the game start in 1337, essentially a declining mesopotamian/mayan city state river valley.

Also, Cahokia is literally the largest prehistoric archaeological site north of Mexico, and the fall of the Mississippians is a super interesting outcome that definitely shaped the landscape of central-eastern north America before the Europeans even arrived.