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Tinto Talks #50 - 12th February 2025

Hey everyone, and welcome back. Johan is busy today (allegedly) so instead I will walk you through this Tinto Talks on Formable Countries in our little project called Caesar. It’s a fairly tight feature so this should be nice and quick.



What are Formable Countries?

Basically, formable countries are new tags that you can switch to. Typically they represent historical unions and conquests, but some represent aspirations that never materialised.

Generally speaking, the vision behind Formables is to offer roleplaying and historical immersion, and support player fantasies, rather than modifier stacking. They will change your country name, national flag, and map color. So while you may unlock some content such as advances or other minor unique content, the tag change is often the goal in itself.

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Spain gets some unique advances in the later ages, but not all do.

Rather than your country changing automatically every age, you achieve it by completing certain objectives. Usually, you'll need to control a certain percentage of a predefined set of locations, for example Scandinavia needs 75% of the locations in the Scandinavia region.

There’s typically additional requirements as well such as your Primary Culture belonging to a certain Culture Group. Forming Spain also requires you and all the independent countries in Iberia to be Christian, as it is thematically closely tied to the completion of the Reconquista. Iberian Muslims have the reverse rules for forming Al-Andalus.

Some are directly tied to actions in International Organizations, like the Holy Roman Empire or the Ilkhanate.

Formables also have a Tier that represents their natural order of precedence. You can only form countries that are the same or higher tier than you. For example, England (Tier 2) can form Great Britain (Tier 3) but Great Britain can’t form England. The AI will only form countries that are a higher tier.


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Country formation is just a click away.


There are 3 settings to the relevant game rule.
  1. Only Historical Formable Countries
    1. Only countries that actually formed in the game’s time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Spain and Great Britain
  2. Allow Plausible Formable Countries(Default)
    1. Countries that could plausible have formed, or formed just after the time period will be allowed.
      1. Examples are Germany and Italy
  3. Allow Ahistorical Formable Countries
    1. Aspirational or fantasy countries can be formed. Examples include
      1. North Sea Empire (which is a Tier IV) if you control Britain and Scandinavia
      2. Europa (Tier V)



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Some countries have different flags depending on the exact manner in which they are formed. For example this variant of the Union Jack with a dominant saltire when you start as Scotland.


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And some formables come with little treats to sweeten the deal.


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The Teutonic Order has a long way to go before they can become Prussia…


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But it might be worth it…


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Some exist to fulfil common player fantasies, but only appear if the player chooses in the Game Rules to have the less historical ones.



This is our current list of formable countries, let us know which ones you would like us add!

FormableTierNote
Europa5Ahistorical
Rome4Ahistorical
Hindustan4Plausible
Holy Roman Empire4Plausible
Byzantium4
Ilkhanate4
Iran4
Mongolia4
Mughals4
Rûm4
Russia4
United States4
Celtica3Ahistorical
Latin Empire3Ahistorical
North Sea3Ahistorical
Al-Andalus3Plausible
Arabia3Plausible
Canada3Plausible
Egypt3Plausible
Germany3Plausible
Italy3Plausible
Malaya3Plausible
Ruthenia3Plausible
Scandinavia3Plausible
Shan3Plausible
Banten3
Bengal3
Deccan3
Delhi3
Ethiopia3
Great Britain3
Gujurat3
Hausa3
Inca3
Kongo3
Manchu3
Maratha3
Mexico3
Poland-Lithuania3
Punjab3
Rajput3
Siam3
Sokoto3
Spain3
Timurids3
Two Sicilies3
Yamato3
Africa2Ahistorical
Carthage2Ahistorical
Hen Ogledd2Ahistorical
Aotearoa2Plausible
Greece2Plausible
Jerusalem2Plausible
Livonia2Plausible
Maya2Plausible
Albania2
Armenia2
Austria2
Ayutthaya2
Bahamis2
England2
Georgia2
Golden Horde2
Holstein2
Ireland2
Navarre2
Nepal2
Netherlands2
Poland2
Prussia2
Scotland2
Serbia2
Sweden2
Switzerland2
Tibet2
Wales2
Connacht1Plausible
Ulster1Plausible
Aïr1
Bavaria1
Beja1
Mazovia1
Mecklenburg1
Mossi1
Nassau1
Northumbria1
Pomerania1
Sardinia1
Saxony1
Silesia1


That's it for today's dev diary. Thanks for reading, and we'll see you next time, where we will talk about Subject Types, and an interesting part of the Castilian player fantasy…
 
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- There are some big formable missing in China (Qing, Ming, reform Yuan, maybe Song), but probably China will use a different system.

- Japan is missing, and if the name is Yamato should be changed in Nippon, Nihon or simply Japan. Yamato is an older name used by the Chinese and at his origin had a derogatory meaning, Nippon/Nihon is attested since VIII century and it's how japanese call themselves till today.

- A lot of former colonies country should be added, expecially Brazil, Gran Colombia (or New Granada), Texas, United Provinces of the Río de la Plata (or Argentina), Cuba, Haiti, and the other republics that became indipendent in the early 1800s.

- Would be fun to have a Caliphate, Burgundy, Aq Qoyunlu, a jewish tag like Israel, something in the Balkans that are empty (Romania? Dalmatia? a sort of Yugoslavia ante litteram?)

- We should be able to reform nations like France, Denmark and other big nations around the world, so the player can start as a little country (e.g. Andorra and Schleswig) and reform the bigger country once destroyed.
 
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Resident Africa poster. Additional formable countries could include:

StateHistoricityTerritory / How To FormAdditional Comments
AsantehistoricalMost of modern Ghana, Eastern Cote D'Ivoire & part of Western Togo
DahomeyhistoricalAbout the Southern half of Benin
Oyo EmpirehistoricalEastern Benin Republic, about 1/3 of Southern NigeriaThe version of Oyo which exists on the current dev map is far too large for the period. The formable country would represent that enlarged form.
SegouhistoricalNiger from South-West of Segou to near TimbuktuForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
Sennar / FunjhistoricalUnite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a preferably Muslim power
Massina / Hamdulahi CaliphatehistoricalRoughly from Segou or Djenne to TimbuktuForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
KaabuuhistoricalWestern "half" of Guinea and part of southern SenegalForming this would require a general collapse of large states in the Western Sahel.
BugandahistoricalNorth of Lake Victoria, roughly Kitara to the lake.Might only be worth adding of the Lake Victoria area is further fleshed out.
Madagascar / United ImerinahistoricalAll of MadagascarBasically just an official representation of a fully-united Madagascar.
Egyptian EmpirehistoricalEgypt, Sudan (roughly minus Darfur) and South SudanRepresents Mohammed Ali’s conquests of Sudan & South Sudan, but might be better named something more neutral incase Sudan or S. Sudan is the conqueror.
KonghistoricalMost of Cote d'IvoireMight be better implemented as a “corporate” entity uniting merchant groups, as this is essentially what it was, historically.
Liberiahistorical/plasuibleMesurado, Sinoe, Bassau, Maryland in Africa unitedMight not be the most “sensitive” to implement mechanically speaking.
Al HabashplausibleSuccessfully unite “Ethiopia” under a muslim power.A reference to Imam Ahmed’s attempted conquest of the Ethiopian state.
Sierra-LeoneahistoricalRoughly the modern countryNot sure how this would be implemented, reasonably.
AksumahistoricalNorthern Ethiopia as far south as Shewa; Eritrea; Djibouti, Dahlak Islands; Yemen(?); Soqotra(?); Eastern Desert(?)Though Aksum had been in decline for 400 years, the state only disappeared during the 9th-10th centuries. Temporally speaking, it’s about equally distant as the Roman Empire.
YorubalandahistoricalSouthern Nigeria, including Lagos, and potentially Benin(?), but excluding Igboland.Uniting all of Yorubaland’s squabbling city-states might make for a fun objective, especially if West Africa is further fleshed out.
Saadi EmpireahistoricalMorocco, Iberia, Niger bend to Senegambia.Achieve the ambitions of Ahmad Al-Mansur and unite the Western edge of the dar al-Islam… then discover that there is a whole bunch of other land west of it.
NubiaahistoricalUnite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a Christian/Coptic power.Christian corrollary to Sennar/Funj.
Continental AfricaahistoricalAfrican continent, Madagascar, and Comorosa dev reply to this thread seems to indicate that the “Africa” on the list is actually roughly the territory of Ifriqiyya/Tunisia.
Great LakesahistoricalAll land around the African great lakes.Would be best if this region were further fleshed out.
Al-SudanahistoricalThe entire Savannah and Sahel belt are united and primarily Muslim.
Indian Ocean EmpireahistoricalEast African Coast, Islands, Western Indian Coast, maybe Persian Gulf & Arabian coast.You have united the coastal lands of the Indian Ocean to form a formidable naval empire dominating the trade of the waves.
Swahili Coast or East African CoastahistoricalUnite the entire Swahili & Somali Coasts, plus maybe Madagascar & ComorosScaled back version of the Indian Ocean Empire concept.
MaghrebahistoricalUnite Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya(?), at least as far as Tripoli.
Kushahistorical (absurd)Unite Alodia, Makuria, and maybe Naqis under a “pagan” powerThe collapse of the great Kushite empire left its people scattered. Generations after the collapse of that state, its distant memory has been revived by an unlikely group of tribes...
How about Oduduwa instead of Yorubaland? Zanj instead of Swahili Coast, if it's not too pejorative? Bilad Al-Sudan would be a better, more complete name. Finally Saadi Empire doesn't make sense as a tag, Saadi is a family/dynasty of Morocco.
 
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How about Oduduwa instead of Yorubaland? Zanj instead of Swahili Coast, if it's not too pejorative? Bilad Al-Sudan would be a better, more complete name. Finally Saadi Empire doesn't make sense as a tag, Saadi is a family/dynasty of Morocco.
  1. Sure, could make for interesting flavour: "the sons of Oduduwa, long divided, have united under the glory of [whatever country or ruler you are playing as]!"
  2. Zanj, I feel, would be inappropriate. The coast was generally known as "Swahili", so reference to "Swahili" would be appropriate. Perhaps "Bilad Al-Sawahil" would be most appropriate (someone fix my Arabic grammar).
  3. Sure.
  4. If there's a better name, I'm all ears. I just wanted something recognizing Al-Mansur's geographic ambitions.
 
  1. Sure, could make for interesting flavour: "the sons of Oduduwa, long divided, have united under the glory of [whatever country or ruler you are playing as]!"
  2. Zanj, I feel, would be inappropriate. The coast was generally known as "Swahili", so reference to "Swahili" would be appropriate. Perhaps "Bilad Al-Sawahil" would be most appropriate (someone fix my Arabic grammar).
  3. Sure.
  4. If there's a better name, I'm all ears. I just wanted something recognizing Al-Mansur's geographic ambitions.
Bilad Al-Sawahil would be "Country of the coasts" and yeah the grammar is correct. It doesn't really make sense but it's not overly offensive to the ear either. The bigger problem is that I don't think this is an actually attested place name whereas Zanj is.
 
Bilad Al-Sawahil would be "Country of the coasts" and yeah the grammar is correct. It doesn't really make sense but it's not overly offensive to the ear either. The bigger problem is that I don't think this is an actually attested place name whereas Zanj is.
No, but "Zanj" is sometimes used as a pejorative today. The term "Swahili" at least is derived from "Sawahil" (meaning coast; also the same etymology as Sahel according to most scholars), so I would say it does make some sense. The other issue with "Zanj" is that, yes, it is applied far too liberally, and is thus not particularly specific.
 
No, but "Zanj" is sometimes used as a pejorative today. The term "Swahili" at least is derived from "Sawahil" (meaning coast; also the same etymology as Sahel according to most scholars), so I would say it does make some sense. The other issue with "Zanj" is that, yes, it is applied far too liberally, and is thus not particularly specific.
Yep it's the same etymology. Sahel is the singular coast, Sawahil is the plural coasts.
 
I think Sultanate of Rum should be treated as tier 3 country. Other regional powers like Al-andalus or PLC are being treated as tier 3, so Rum should be treated as in the same way. Instead of Rum, I suggest the Great Seljuk Empire as tier 4 formable country for turkish and turkoman culture countries.
 
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1.Varangia(tier 1 ahistorical; created by the ABC Varangian Guard of Byzantium, which were known to exist as late as 1400 *wink wink*)
2.Liberia(tier 1 plausible; created by United States owning at least one West African province or by a Society of POPs consisting of free Afro-Americans in West Africa)
3.West Africa(tier 3 or 4 ahistorical; created by Liberia or other colonial owning most of the region)
4.Aztec(tier 2 or 3 historical; Nahua country of a certain size and owning Tenochtitlan)
5.Aztlan(tier 3 or 4 ahistorical; Great Power Aztec owning most of the region)
6.Shimabara/Amakusa/Tokisada(tier 1 ahistorical; successful Catholic Japanese rebels)
7.Jagiellonian Empire/Union(tier 4; royal union of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary and Bohemia under the Jagiellon dynasty)
 
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1. Timor, tier 1, plausible, control the x% Timor island, be of appropriate culture, capital in Timor island
2. Moluccas, tier 2, plausible, control x% of Moluccas area, be of appropriate culture, capital in Moluccas
3. Papua, tier 3, plausible, control x% Papua area, be of appropriate culture, capital in Papua
4. Maphilindo/Nusantara, tier 4, ahistorical, control x% of Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Celebes, Lesser Sunda, Moluccas, Philllipines, be of appropriate culture
5. Nunusaku, tier 1, ahistorical, control x% of Seram island, capital in Seram island, be of appropriate culture and religion (local religion)

Why Banten for Tier 3? Java or Bumi Jawa would work better for the island formable.

Also idk if it's a feature already but surely hope we can rename and change country color.
 
Hey I wanna add two more pan ethnicity formables, Slavia and western Rome that will stand for a pan Romance languages country

How would this Western Rome differ from the Rome that's already listed? If you mean that the Western Rome would require less areas, do we know that the Rome that's listed there requires both West+East Roman areas and not just some of the Western ones? Have they not read my wishes in the thread? ;)
 
Like I've been saying in the Central America Tinto Maps, I believe that the chiefdoms of Zui and Yaquimo should start as separate entities which can unify to form the Jaragua chiefdom. Of course, like the other Hispaniola chiefdoms, this should be a tier below a formable Quisqueya.
 
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Like I've been saying in the Central America Tinto Maps, I believe that the chiefdoms of Zui and Yaquimo should start as separate entities which can unify to form the Jaragua chiefdom. Of course, like the other Hispaniola chiefdoms, this should be a tier below a formable Quisqueya.
I can't wait. I hope to create a Central American version of Japan.
 
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A Turkish state (or principality, probably Eretna) controlling Anatolia and Azerbaijan could establish the "Oghuz State".
I think that the Oghuz state should be formed either in the steppes of Central Asia or not have clear territorial boundaries and be formed only after the capture of provinces in which the cultures of the descendants of the Oghuz are widespread
 
I think it would be cool if there was a possibility of creating a Jewish state not only on the territory of modern Israel, but also anywhere, provided that n-th number of provinces would be predominantly Jewish and professing Judaism. The same could be done, for example, for the Gypsies. I also propose to make it possible to form Caliphates, the names of which will change depending on the current of Islam, and if it is possible to eliminate the religious schism, ultimately create a righteous Caliphate.
 
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