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Tinto Talks #68 - 18th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Buddhism. In EUV, it is considered another Religious Group, like some that we saw previously, such as Christianity or Islam:
Buddhism.png

Buddhism.jpg

We will focus on the three main branches of pure Buddhism: Theravāda, Eastern Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism, which share the same core mechanics.
Theravada.png

Eastern Buddhism.png

Tibetan Buddhism.png

One aspect that all of these share is the presence of Karma as a currency. Karma, same as it was in EU4, can be modified by different factors, and gives different effects depending on its value:
Karma.png

Another very important aspect of Buddhist religions is the presence of various Buddhist Sects. Each religion has a variety of different sects, represented as International Organizations, and countries will belong to the sects of their own religion. Eastern Buddhism countries can belong to a maximum of 3 sects, while the rest of the religions allow for a maximum of a single sect.

Each sect has a value of Favor, representing the influence and support that sect has, as well as locations in which that sect is present. The sects also define themselves through a set of laws establishing their philosophy and teachings.
Mahavihara panel.png

Main Philosophy.png

As long as sects have a high value of favor (over 60%), they will be able to expand their influence by adding more of their neighboring locations to the IO. Conversely, if sects have a low value of favor (less than 40%), they will start losing their locations. Sects will also lose locations if the dominant religion of the location is not the appropriate one. Sects can only gain or lose a single location at a time, though, so they will not completely disappear or extremely increase in size overnight, but it will be a gradual process.

Sects gain or lose favor depending not only on how many countries are part of the IO, but also from countries actively promoting or disfavoring them. A country can choose to favor or disfavor a single sect to affect its favor value, although that will also impact the effects that the country gets from the sect(s) it belongs to.
Religion Panel.png

A country can also choose to leave a sect or to join a new one, but with some caveats. For once, a country will not be able to leave a sect it is part of as long as that sect has over 50% favor. So, if they want to leave that to join a new one, they will have to first make that favor decrease. To join a sect, a country must not already be at its maximum number of sects allowed, and the sect to join needs to be present in their territory or in the territory of an ally or a subject.

Let me now give a brief overview of the available sects.

Theravada Sects:
Theravada Sects.png

Eastern Buddhism Sects:
Eastern Buddhism Sects.png

You might notice here Confucianism and Daoism; we’ll talk more in-depth about them in the last block of the post, devoted to Sānjiào.

Tibetan Buddhism Sects:
Tibetan Buddhism Sects.png

Some of these Sects may be better known by other names, but we used more generic terms for them due to the fact that they are present in multiple countries:
Meditation School.png

Meditation School spread.png

Some of these schools have other special sets of teachings on top of the main ones, like the ones including Vajrayāna Tantric practices, giving some extra actions to the countries that belong to them.
Tantric Practices.png

Tantric Actions.png

There are also two other Buddhist religions I want to talk about, which were pending from previous Tinto Talks. For starters, let’s talk once again about Shintō. As mentioned in its own Tinto Talks, Shintō countries have the ability to Favor Buddhist Schools, and mentioned that that action gives them access to interact with the general Buddhist mechanics. That means that when performing this action, they will gain the same abilities related to the sects, with some costs associated with that:
Favor Buddhist Schools.png

Shinto Buddhist.png

They will thus be able to join the sects of Eastern Buddhism, although they can only join one, with some extra specifically Japanese sects:
Japanese Sects.png

As an extra note related to the Japanese sects, Jōdo Shinshū will also be created as an additional one during the course of the game.

Another religion in the Buddhist group I want to mention (and that some of you have already noticed) is the new religion we have implemented in China, which we have named Sānjiào, something we did after careful consideration, from the feedback received in Tinto Maps. This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries. As such, a country following Sānjiào will automatically belong to the Confucianism and Daoism Sects, and they will get both the Righteousness and Harmony currencies. On top of that, they will be able to join one extra sect of Eastern Buddhism:
Sanjiao.png

Sanjiao Panel.png


Confucianims.png

Daoism.png

As you can see, these enable two special currencies: Righteousness and Harmony respectively:
Righteousness.png

Harmony.png


Sanjiao Map.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow, there will be a post about the process behind the Audio and the OST of the game, while on Friday’s Tinto Flavour, we will take a look at Majapahit!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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EDIT2-- moved the questioning here to another post.

I think we have to distinguish Taoist Philosophy and Daoism. also have to think about concept of Xian influence at outside of china is when. after daoism or before?

...we do, yeah, because I thought Taoism and Daoism were just different romanizations for the same word.

EDIT-- Ok I just checked the wiki article and it does complicate things a bit.
 
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Something like eastern teachings might have been a better group name since not all of these are buddhist
 
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They never were gone. And today has been a punctual day, I'm glad that y'all appreciate it. :)
It may have been a bit cruel to increase the dosage and then letting us suffer withdrawal... You risked a return like the meme:
1750262277536.png
 
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  • Move the classification to the subtitle and not have a line for it
    • 'Religion | Buddhism Religion Group'
  • Treat the % sign and icons as its own column and align the least significant digits in the list. (In this case align all the hundredths digits)
  • Change from yes/no to allowed blocked (or locked/unlocked in some cases)
    • 'Monasteries Allowed'
    • 'Karma Unlocked'
  • The Pops in the world isn't limited to the what we are 'aware of'?
  • I see we have added a space between the scroll bar and the pop icon. Nice.
  • I the pop listed in the aware of list the total number of pops in the country or just the Theravada ones?
  • I like the flavor text box style used in events and would use that in tooltips also (corner adornments, slightly smaller font, different color and background.
    • The last thing I would add to the style is to change from the right justification (ragged right look) to full justification (flush on both sides).
Theravada.png


  • Can we figure out how to merger that first and second lines. We have... ...which provides:
  • This one is unclear. Are the values at -33 and 33 caps? Your current value portion doesn't make sense with the two 'endpoints' listed?
    • Does this mean that at -33 (and below) I am at +2.5 discipline that then gets bigger at 0 karma (5.0 @0.1) but it gone by 33 karma (not listed so 0)?
Karma.png


  • I know we are moving away from bespoke things but this law (which cannot be changed) feels like forcing a square peg into a round hole. I thought IO were to be a container not a limit of what can be done.
  • big panel for little information.
  • As this sect is limited to this religion do we need to list the religion?
  • What does a throne room have to do with the religious sect?
  • The number 1 appears to be offset within the circle border. (Also are we making sure to limit this to single digit values?)
Mahavihara%20panel.png


  • At least we moved away from the generic religion picture. Though I am getting tired of the 'throne room' architecture reskinned over and over again.
  • Having the labels 'primary religion' and 'liturgical language' larger than the actual values makes the actual values fade from view. Swap the font sizes between the labels and values
  • The three thing in the picture on the left appear to be a hodgepodge that only exist because there are three things on the right.
  • The weird dinner scene with drama masks is a placeholder, right?
  • Having such a large space for the sects (where at most there will be three) and the Religion Modifiers feels wasteful and unfinished.
  • Add some space between the adornments and the sect icon, it is over lapping (it touches the border lines too).
Religion%20Panel.png


  • Add the classification to the subtitle and not as a separate line
    • 'Policy | Main Philosophy'
  • I assume the 'Disfavor' and 'Promote' here are part of the buttons above?
  • Can we have the 'modifiers' that are part of the subclause indented to make it obvious that it is part of the subclause?
    • Is this referring to the one above or below?
  • The first item is always in effect, so in this case while disfavoring (and not promoting) it would add to 0%?
  • Is the case where we have three sects, does promoting one of our other sects still affect this sect?
Meditation%20School.png


  • Does this have to 'enable' the two new variables as you are tying it to Confucianism and Daoism which enable them?
Sanjiao.png


That is all for now. Hope it is helpful.

Are we going to get a TT on UI and UX at a point where responses will be useful?
 
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Reactions:
  • Move the classification to the subtitle and not have a line for it
    • 'Religion | Buddhism Religion Group'
  • Treat the % sign and icons as its own column and align the least significant digits in the list. (In this case align all the hundredths digits)
  • Change from yes/no to allowed blocked (or locked/unlocked in some cases)
    • 'Monasteries Allowed'
    • 'Karma Unlocked'
  • The Pops in the world isn't limited to the what we are 'aware of'?
  • I see we have added a space between the scroll bar and the pop icon. Nice.
  • I the pop listed in the aware of list the total number of pops in the country or just the Theravada ones?
  • I like the flavor text box style used in events and would use that in tooltips also (corner adornments, slightly smaller font, different color and background.
    • The last thing I would add to the style is to change from the right justification (ragged right look) to full justification (flush on both sides).
Theravada.png


  • Can we figure out how to merger that first and second lines. We have... ...which provides:
  • This one is unclear. Are the values at -33 and 33 caps? Your current value portion doesn't make sense with the two 'endpoints' listed?
    • Does this mean that at -33 (and below) I am at +2.5 discipline that then gets bigger at 0 karma (5.0 @0.1) but it gone by 33 karma (not listed so 0)?
Karma.png


  • I know we are moving away from bespoke things but this law (which cannot be changed) feels like forcing a square peg into a round hole. I thought IO were to be a container not a limit of what can be done.
  • big panel for little information.
  • As this sect is limited to this religion do we need to list the religion?
  • What does a throne room have to do with the religious sect?
  • The number 1 appears to be offset within the circle border. (Also are we making sure to limit this to single digit values?)
Mahavihara%20panel.png


  • At least we moved away from the generic religion picture. Though I am getting tired of the 'throne room' architecture reskinned over and over again.
  • Having the labels 'primary religion' and 'liturgical language' larger than the actual values makes the actual values fade from view. Swap the font sizes between the labels and values
  • The three thing in the picture on the left appear to be a hodgepodge that only exist because there are three things on the right.
  • The weird dinner scene with drama masks is a placeholder, right?
  • Having such a large space for the sects (where at most there will be three) and the Religion Modifiers feels wasteful and unfinished.
  • Add some space between the adornments and the sect icon, it is over lapping (it touches the border lines too).
Religion%20Panel.png


  • Add the classification to the subtitle and not as a separate line
    • 'Policy | Main Philosophy'
  • I assume the 'Disfavor' and 'Promote' here are part of the buttons above?
  • Can we have the 'modifiers' that are part of the subclause indented to make it obvious that it is part of the subclause?
    • Is this referring to the one above or below?
  • The first item is always in effect, so in this case while disfavoring (and not promoting) it would add to 0%?
  • Is the case where we have three sects, does promoting one of our other sects still affect this sect?
Meditation%20School.png


  • Does this have to 'enable' the two new variables as you are tying it to Confucianism and Daoism which enable them?
Sanjiao.png


That is all for now. Hope it is helpful.

Are we going to get a TT on UI and UX at a point where responses will be useful?
I'm generally a fan of the UI in terms of the overall style, but these are pretty uniformly great suggestions. In a game with this many moving parts, presenting the player with all relevant info in as streamlined and intuitive a form as possible is super important.

Agree on the placeholder images too, but it isn't a priority for me, at least for initial release. Happy for decorative elements to be added to and improved post release.
 
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I actually really like what you guys ended up doing!

Can I ask if you could show some info on what you ended up doing with that branch of mahayana in India?
 
Will there be something about Korea's crackdown on Buddhism in favour of pure Confucianism?
Yes, that would be the one thing that perhaps is missing.
Perhaps neoconfucianism could be added as a religion not present at game start and Korea could gain the option of being converted to that via event.
 
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Any countries starting out with Bön?
 
That's because most of its pops doesn't follow Tibetan Buddhism, but Sanjiao (the countries there are ordered by the number of pops of that religion).
If this is a list of all countries, ordered by number following the religion, then the text could be clearer about that. Even if it’s a list only of countries following the religion, if the number is just the number of pops following the religion, that could be clearer in the text. (It would also be useful to have a list of countries that don’t follow the religion, ordered by number of pops following the religion.)
 
Many people giving out their opinions on this topic and making reactions based on preconceived notions and wikipedia readings. Here's a couple of sources for any interested on the topic.

On most of these texts you will find certain common pillars:
- Chinese religion cannot be categorised as a "Buddhism that syncretised with folk beliefs" like has been claimed
- Chinese religion cannot be reduced to just Buddhism
- Daoism is not some insignificant trend or philosophy, and the distinction of philosophical Daoism vs. religious Daoism is a fictional product of outdated historiography
- Daoism, Chinese Buddhism and Confucianism are manifestations of a single religious framework by the 14th century, and dividing them is difficult
- China has spread its religious framework outside its borders, and there is a case to be made to have Korea and Vietnam with the same religion as China (though I understand if some disagree with this)

Chinese Religion: A Contextual Approach (https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Religion-Contextual-Xinzhong-Yao/dp/1847064760)
Religions of China in Practice (https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1nxcvrb)
China's Three Teachings and the Relationship of Heaven, Earth and Humanity (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43809454)
Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism, and Chinese Popular Religion (https://oxfordre.com/asianhistory/d...0277727.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277727-e-126)
Buddhism, Daoism, and Chinese Religion (https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_2011_num_20_1_1365)
Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China (https://cup.columbia.edu/book/tibetan-buddhists-in-the-making-of-modern-china/9780231134460/)
Joseon Kings’ Personal Belief in Buddhism and its Political Significance (https://accesson.kr/rks/assets/pdf/7717/journal-14-1-35.pdf)
The Ming Prince and Daoism: Institutional Patronage of an Elite (https://academic.oup.com/book/1664?login=false)
THE RELIGIOUS ASPECT OF CONFUCIANISM DURING THE LYTRAN DYNASTIES VIET (https://periodicos.ufrb.edu.br/index.php/griot/article/download/4815/2531/20059)
Daoist Influence on Korean Thought and Culture (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338867392_Daoist_Influence_on_Korean_Thought_and_Culture)
 
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From a game-play perspective, unless you want to change around your sects, what's the point of disfavoring or promoting a sect? Those actions seem to have only negative effects. Are there location level modifiers based on the presence of a sect in that location? Do I not get a benefit from the sect that I am promoting? As a player, once you have the sects that you want, it seems like there's no reason to interact with this mechanic, unless I'm missing something.
 
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Just a quick comment on "wuwei" as it is such a central term in Daoism. More modern translations of Daodejing and Zhuangzi (Brook Ziporyn, Brian van Norden) render it "action without forcing" instead of a literal translation. Not-forcing because you are supposed to cease trying to manipulate and change the world to your personal liking.
 
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