• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #68 - 18th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Buddhism. In EUV, it is considered another Religious Group, like some that we saw previously, such as Christianity or Islam:
Buddhism.png

Buddhism.jpg

We will focus on the three main branches of pure Buddhism: Theravāda, Eastern Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism, which share the same core mechanics.
Theravada.png

Eastern Buddhism.png

Tibetan Buddhism.png

One aspect that all of these share is the presence of Karma as a currency. Karma, same as it was in EU4, can be modified by different factors, and gives different effects depending on its value:
Karma.png

Another very important aspect of Buddhist religions is the presence of various Buddhist Sects. Each religion has a variety of different sects, represented as International Organizations, and countries will belong to the sects of their own religion. Eastern Buddhism countries can belong to a maximum of 3 sects, while the rest of the religions allow for a maximum of a single sect.

Each sect has a value of Favor, representing the influence and support that sect has, as well as locations in which that sect is present. The sects also define themselves through a set of laws establishing their philosophy and teachings.
Mahavihara panel.png

Main Philosophy.png

As long as sects have a high value of favor (over 60%), they will be able to expand their influence by adding more of their neighboring locations to the IO. Conversely, if sects have a low value of favor (less than 40%), they will start losing their locations. Sects will also lose locations if the dominant religion of the location is not the appropriate one. Sects can only gain or lose a single location at a time, though, so they will not completely disappear or extremely increase in size overnight, but it will be a gradual process.

Sects gain or lose favor depending not only on how many countries are part of the IO, but also from countries actively promoting or disfavoring them. A country can choose to favor or disfavor a single sect to affect its favor value, although that will also impact the effects that the country gets from the sect(s) it belongs to.
Religion Panel.png

A country can also choose to leave a sect or to join a new one, but with some caveats. For once, a country will not be able to leave a sect it is part of as long as that sect has over 50% favor. So, if they want to leave that to join a new one, they will have to first make that favor decrease. To join a sect, a country must not already be at its maximum number of sects allowed, and the sect to join needs to be present in their territory or in the territory of an ally or a subject.

Let me now give a brief overview of the available sects.

Theravada Sects:
Theravada Sects.png

Eastern Buddhism Sects:
Eastern Buddhism Sects.png

You might notice here Confucianism and Daoism; we’ll talk more in-depth about them in the last block of the post, devoted to Sānjiào.

Tibetan Buddhism Sects:
Tibetan Buddhism Sects.png

Some of these Sects may be better known by other names, but we used more generic terms for them due to the fact that they are present in multiple countries:
Meditation School.png

Meditation School spread.png

Some of these schools have other special sets of teachings on top of the main ones, like the ones including Vajrayāna Tantric practices, giving some extra actions to the countries that belong to them.
Tantric Practices.png

Tantric Actions.png

There are also two other Buddhist religions I want to talk about, which were pending from previous Tinto Talks. For starters, let’s talk once again about Shintō. As mentioned in its own Tinto Talks, Shintō countries have the ability to Favor Buddhist Schools, and mentioned that that action gives them access to interact with the general Buddhist mechanics. That means that when performing this action, they will gain the same abilities related to the sects, with some costs associated with that:
Favor Buddhist Schools.png

Shinto Buddhist.png

They will thus be able to join the sects of Eastern Buddhism, although they can only join one, with some extra specifically Japanese sects:
Japanese Sects.png

As an extra note related to the Japanese sects, Jōdo Shinshū will also be created as an additional one during the course of the game.

Another religion in the Buddhist group I want to mention (and that some of you have already noticed) is the new religion we have implemented in China, which we have named Sānjiào, something we did after careful consideration, from the feedback received in Tinto Maps. This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries. As such, a country following Sānjiào will automatically belong to the Confucianism and Daoism Sects, and they will get both the Righteousness and Harmony currencies. On top of that, they will be able to join one extra sect of Eastern Buddhism:
Sanjiao.png

Sanjiao Panel.png


Confucianims.png

Daoism.png

As you can see, these enable two special currencies: Righteousness and Harmony respectively:
Righteousness.png

Harmony.png


Sanjiao Map.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow, there will be a post about the process behind the Audio and the OST of the game, while on Friday’s Tinto Flavour, we will take a look at Majapahit!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
  • 122Like
  • 59Love
  • 12
  • 10
  • 5
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Can Shinto gain access to the Righteousness and Karma by favoring their respective sects? Also why isn't Classical Chinese the liturgical language of Shinto like it is for Sanjiao and Eastern Buddhism? (The Nihon Shoki and the sacred texts of Japanese Buddhism are all written in it)

Images

For Righteousness yes, as that's tied to the Confucianism sect, for Karma no as that is not tied to any sect but to the religions themselves.
Regarding Classical Chinese for Sinto, that is something that could be debatable. It is true that Classical Chinese was used in Japan, but the way it was used (called Kanbun), includes many annotations and variations of word and grammatical order compared to what would be directly Classical Chinese, and when reading the texts aloud they would read it in a way that would be incomprehensible compared to Classical Chinese. That's why it was chosen to represent that as Japanese, although it would be different than regular Japanese. To be fair, Japanese people of the time would use up to four different types of writing including Kanbun, but would read all as Japanese.
 
  • 38Like
  • 11
Reactions:
Why out of all of those are Japanese and Chinese belief given special portrayals when they're not all that different to any of the other regions I've mentioned?
Probably because they are a country with high gameplay priority and high significance over much more people. Sure I hope it'll change in the future but I personally wouldn't brand it as a failure.
I understand not using Mahayana because of the awful split of that branch you're doing, though Eastern Buddhism is a really bad name.
I would love to hear your suggestion for the name. That name has been loved and hated around this forum for god knows how long.
You'd be hard pressed to pick just one of those to describe the main philosophy of any iteration of Buddhism at the time, and often many were favour at the same time. For just one example, Japan has often been associated with both the Chan and Pure land Buddhist movements, and often had practices from both.
You can make that argument on any other religions that they have shown throughout Tinto Talks, especially Islam, which I consider to be much worse that what is presented here.

Personally I think this is fine at launch, it looks more like a skeleton but at least there is a foundation in which they can modify and make something far better later down the line.
 
  • 16Like
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
I don't get why I'm being downvoted for pointing out a major historical inconsistency in the game. It is not even obscure or niche information that the Sammitya school collapsed rapidly after the arrival of Islam in Sindh, and had completely vanished by the game's start date.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_2025-06-18-18-53-02-716_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg
    Screenshot_2025-06-18-18-53-02-716_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg
    607,8 KB · Views: 0
  • Screenshot_2025-06-18-18-56-15-827_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg
    Screenshot_2025-06-18-18-56-15-827_com.android.chrome-edit.jpg
    718 KB · Views: 0
  • 5
  • 1Like
Reactions:
You typically have to pay a professional for this level of edging…
 
  • 6Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Honestly this seems like a very flexible and somewhat elegant solution to all the overlaps in doctrine and spectrum of belief when working within a game where a religion is either "1" or "2" or "3".... well done.

Islam and its subdivisions in jurisprudence and theology could really do with a revisit inspired by this approach to mechanics imo.
 
  • 11Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Does the Buddhist group have any mechanical kinship with the earlier-discussed Dharmic group, or are they as alien to each other as they are to Christianity and Islam?
 
  • 6Like
  • 2
Reactions:
For all the dynamism in the game, the portrayal of Mahayana as Eastern Buddhism, Sanjiao and Shinto is one of the largest failures in the religious gameplay we've seen. Buddhism syncretised with local beliefs pretty much wherever it was present. It's so weird that China and Japan are being singled out as being shown as fusions with local beliefs when that was the case for every region.

Therevada in Thailand/Siam was influenced by Tai folk belief, in Burma it was influenced by Mon folk belief and in Khmer by Khmer local belief. Mahayana in Vietnam was influenced by Vietnamese folk belief, in Korea it was influenced by Korean folk belief. Vajrayana was influenced by Tibetan belief, and when it spread to Mongolia, the local variety was influenced by Mongolian belief.

Why out of all of those are Japanese and Chinese belief given special portrayals when they're not all that different to any of the other regions I've mentioned?

Can't comment on Japan but China it is entirely different because whereas in the Southeast Asia, Buddhism syncretised with the local native religions and provided an overarching theology and structure, that was not the case for China where a very strong existing theological current and organized religion already existed. Buddhism does not inform religion and religious belief in China as it does in Southeast Asia, it does not mold it. Existing folk practices in Southeast Asia are made as folk practices under an umbrella of Buddhism, existing folk practices in China are not practiced under an umbrella of simply Buddhism.

As for Korea and Vietnam, they should be included into the Chinese religion arguably due to the role that Confucianism and Daoism had also in providing a proper theological structure and framework there. From my understanding though, Muism in Korea and the Vietnamese folk religion themselves did not serve a similar role as we see in the indigenous Chinese belief systems.
 
  • 10Like
  • 10
  • 2
Reactions:
It is a lazy way to lump all the major religions in the eastern continental part of Asia into Buddhism.
As I said in the previous version, when you count all of these as Buddhism, how do you explain the suppression and elimination of Buddhism in the early days of the Ming Dynasty and the Joseon Dynasty? Are we going to see Buddhist groups persecuting themselves?
 
  • 12Like
  • 4
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
I'll probably make another post/thread about it, but

EU4 Karma is a terrible implementation imo. Paradox implemented it as if it were "Aggressive vs Peaceful", when it's "Bad vs Good". And Bad is always bad, there's no upside to it.

IIRC it was also said Karma has an equilibrium, which is incorrect. If you have Karma, be it good or bad, it *will* bear fruit. You should always suffer (or enjoy) the consequences of Karma, be it in this life or in the next one. It would make more sense to add equilibrium to Self Control imo, if we were to add it to anything at all.

I am also not sure if the middle should be the way, even though the Buddha talked about the, huh, Middle Way. You follow the Middle Way to avoid suffering, which generates Karma, but that does not mean you are trying to "balance good deeds with bad deeds", you are trying to break free of samsara. Karma is correlated with that, but is not necessarily the path to it. Someone who became a Buddha would not be in the middle of the Karma slider, they'd be either locked in +100 Karma or fully outside of the system. Because of this, I think the middle threshold (-33 to +33) should either not exist, or have different (but arguably weaker) modifiers to the positive threshold (+33 to 100). Actually, as of writing, I just got an idea...

Finally, there's the Karma description which I found peculiar.

Karma1.jpg


"the past deeds of a Country". AFAIK Karma is not based on the country, it's based on the person. It's the person's past deeds (and intentions, depending on the religion/school) that generate/attract Karma. So it should depend on what the ruler does, and it should affect the ruler directly. Technically every character should have a Karma slider but this is not CK3, so we limit it to the ruler. Following this, the modifiers should ideally be more ruler-centered, so for example you should not get Discipline from it, but rather a General trait that gives Discipline. But I admit that's much easier said than done.

Honestly, all in all, it feels like Paradox mistook Karma for Yin-Yang and nobody bothered to correct course in all these years lol.

So, If It Were Me™, I'd change Karma to this (all scaled modifers):

Negative Karma:
-10% Estates Satisfaction Equilibrium
-10% Clergy Satisfaction Equilibrium [so it amounts to -20%]
-2 Tolerance of True Faith

Neutral Karma:
-25% Stability Cost [or +0.025 Stability Investment, idk how it works tbh]
-50% Karma Gain
-50% Karma Loss

Positive Karma:
+10% Estates Satisfaction Equilibrium
+10% Clergy Satisfaction Equilibrium [so it amounts to +20%]
+2 Tolerance of True Faith

I don't remember where I read it (Wikipedia?), but there's also a vicious/virtuous cycle in Karma, in that doing bad deeds makes it easier for the person to do even more bad deeds, and the same applies to good deeds. Tbh it's obvious in hindsight, if you are a terrible person you'll keep being terrible out of habit... So I guess neutral Karma could be the "stable path". It's more difficult to get out of it than the others, and you also has to invest less to maintain Stability.

Finally, there should be "Karma farming" Religious Actions. This isn't even a gamey tactic, laypeople do it to this day lmao, it's part of their religious practices. Some of my suggestions are:

-Donate to the Sangha: Pays 6 months of Income, Clergy receives the Income; +10 Karma, +1 Yearly Karma, +10% Clergy Power for 10 years
-Organize a Pilgrimage: Ruler Unavailable for 6 months; +0.5 Yearly Karma for 5 years
-Offer Relief to the Peasants: -20% Peasant Tax, +10% Peasant Satisfaction Equilibrium, +0.5 Yearly Karma for 10 years

Then you'd also have other sources of Karma like building a temple, developing a province etc. There should be some Actions where you pay with Karma too, but I don't know what they could be.

Also: this is all considering Karma has to be a one-dimensional slider. Because *technically* there should be two 0-100 sliders, one for Good and other for Bad Karma. I can understand sacrificing that for gameplay, but if we wanted to be fully historical we'd need two sliders.
 
Last edited:
  • 40Like
  • 7
  • 4
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Will Korea convert to Sanjiao(or have a decision/event that enables it to convert) if Yi Seong-gye forms Joseon? I think it's only fitting, since you literally just can't describe the ruling ideology of the Joseon dynasty as anything even resembling Buddhism.
 
  • 3Like
  • 3
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I suggest changing Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo" or "Ogyo Yangjong", another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

ea419d58ccbf6c81c43c46f9fa3eb13532fa40df.jpg


Buddhism, which was deeply rooted in Goryeo, like the Sanjiao of China, is a religion developed and formed by absorbing the traditional beliefs and folk beliefs of the korea Three Kingdoms, beginning centuries ago in Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla.

Currently, it seems that "Eastern Buddhism" is a Buddhist denomination shared by countries like Vietnam and those in the Indonesian region, in addition to Goryeo.

I think this aspect can harm the gameplay immersion.

Historically, the Buddhism of Goryeo does not align with the Buddhist traditions of Vietnam and Indonesia. and more.

Of course, you can also adapt Goryeo Buddhism to Eastern Buddhism for the balance of the game.

However, I and other Korean players feel regret.

I earnestly ask the developers,

Please change Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo" or "Ogyo Yangjong" , another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

Also, "Ogyo Yangjong (五敎兩宗)"
is a collective term for all Buddhist sects in Goryeo after the 12th century, and historical records indicate its usage began in the mid-13th century during the Goryeo period.

Furthermore, the following could be the sects for Goryeo Bulgyo:

Confucianism유교 (儒敎)
Daoism도교 (道敎)
Jogye Order조계종 (曹溪宗)
Chongji Order총지종 (摠持宗)
Cheontae Order천태종 (天台宗)
Cheontaesoja Order천태소자종 (天台小滋宗)
Cheontaebeopsa Order천태법사종 (天台法師宗)
Hwaeom Order화엄종 (華嚴宗)
Domun Order도문종 (道門宗)
Jaeun Orde자은종 (慈恩宗)
Jungdo Order중도종 (中道宗)
Sinin Order신인종 (神印宗)
Namsan Order남산종 (南山宗)
Siheung Order시흥종 (始興宗)
Musok무속 (巫俗)

Also, I think that countries that believe in Buddhism, such as Vietnam and Thailand, should have Buddhism that fits their cultural traditions like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.
 
Last edited:
  • 28Like
  • 4
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries.
This is widely known to not have been unique to China and existed in Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China. I don't understand why China and Japan get special treatment. The exact same thing was going on in Korea and Vietnam. Either they should all be lumped together or all split up. Both of which are overwhelmingly supported by the community relative to alternatives that have been proposed.
United.png
Split.png

Indonesia was also syncretic between Buddhism, Hinduism and their local folk religions, so they should have access to the same mechanics.

Otherwise, I do like the mechanics, they're expandable which is very nice. Just don't like the weird double standard in how they are separated. I appreciate the progress.
 
Last edited:
  • 29Like
  • 5
  • 3
Reactions:
This is widely known to not have been unique to China and existed in Vietnam, Korea, Japan and China. I don't understand why China and Japan get special treatment. The exact same thing was going on in Korea and Vietnam. Either they should all be lumped together or all split up. Which was overwhelmingly supported by the community. View attachment 1321150View attachment 1321151
Indonesia was also syncretic between Buddhism, Hinduism and their local folk religions, so they should have access to the same mechanics.

Otherwise, like the mechanics. Just not the weird double standard.
If we are going this route then Mainland SEA should also have one too, see my prior comment.

But that would means every Buddhism under the sun are special snowflake tho lol
 
  • 5
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
2. There's some content related to this process, although we want to improve a bit how it's linked to the religion. What you can actually do is to favor Confucianism over the other sects.

Any chance you add a Neo-Confucianism sect which acts almost the same as Confucianism, but forces all other Sects to be Disfavored?
 
  • 6Like
  • 4
Reactions:
Tbh, since most traditional beliefs in East Asia (maybe South East Asian too like some player has pointed out) are a blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and various native folk belief, I think it's better to make an umbrella term Eastern religion (or Harmonized religion or something idk) with 2 slots for sect available to you (some "sects" can add or subtract 1 slot), and then give all these Buddhism-based countries that religion instead.

Some rules:
1. Countries can't pick sects that are too far away (so like Indonesian kingdoms can't just adopt Daoism, and Shinto will pretty much be confined to its island because of all the water - at least until Japan conquers some mainland territories). Folk belief sects tend to stick with their own culture, so a Korean won't adopt Chinese folk, for example.
2. All estate will be pissed (especially the clergy) if their belief is not picked, so the Khmer can't just ignore Theravada for example.
3. Each estate will have its preference (and dislike), like the nobles will prefer the hierarchical Confucianism, while the masses will prefer something more egalitarian.
4. The clergy will be pissed if you pick a non-native sect until that sect pass a certain threshold (20%) in their location. This effect will be null if it's the sect they prefer, and double if it's the sect they dislike.
5. Player can favor/disfavor a sect to increase/decrease, and can choose which sect to perform the cabinet's convert action.
6. Some sects can be more easily converted to some specific sects than others (like the Theravāda's schools can be more easily converted to each other than to Shinto). Some are just more generally vulnerable to be converted by all, while others can be generally harder.
7. Some sects are mutually exclusive, and their conversion to each other will take longer time.

An example:
Đại Việt (Confucianism + Mahāyāna + Vietnamese folk) moves South and gets the 2 easternmost provinces of Khmer (Theravāda + Khmer folk). Despite still being the same Eastern religion, the Khmer pop will still livid because the none of their sect got approved by Đai Việt. Đai Việt then have 2 options: either drop one of their sect to adopt Theravāda (and pissed of half of their population), or slowly convert the Khmer to either Confucianism or Mahāyāna.
 
  • 13Like
  • 1
Reactions: