• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #68 - 18th of June 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will discuss the mechanics of Buddhism. In EUV, it is considered another Religious Group, like some that we saw previously, such as Christianity or Islam:
Buddhism.png

Buddhism.jpg

We will focus on the three main branches of pure Buddhism: Theravāda, Eastern Buddhism, and Tibetan Buddhism, which share the same core mechanics.
Theravada.png

Eastern Buddhism.png

Tibetan Buddhism.png

One aspect that all of these share is the presence of Karma as a currency. Karma, same as it was in EU4, can be modified by different factors, and gives different effects depending on its value:
Karma.png

Another very important aspect of Buddhist religions is the presence of various Buddhist Sects. Each religion has a variety of different sects, represented as International Organizations, and countries will belong to the sects of their own religion. Eastern Buddhism countries can belong to a maximum of 3 sects, while the rest of the religions allow for a maximum of a single sect.

Each sect has a value of Favor, representing the influence and support that sect has, as well as locations in which that sect is present. The sects also define themselves through a set of laws establishing their philosophy and teachings.
Mahavihara panel.png

Main Philosophy.png

As long as sects have a high value of favor (over 60%), they will be able to expand their influence by adding more of their neighboring locations to the IO. Conversely, if sects have a low value of favor (less than 40%), they will start losing their locations. Sects will also lose locations if the dominant religion of the location is not the appropriate one. Sects can only gain or lose a single location at a time, though, so they will not completely disappear or extremely increase in size overnight, but it will be a gradual process.

Sects gain or lose favor depending not only on how many countries are part of the IO, but also from countries actively promoting or disfavoring them. A country can choose to favor or disfavor a single sect to affect its favor value, although that will also impact the effects that the country gets from the sect(s) it belongs to.
Religion Panel.png

A country can also choose to leave a sect or to join a new one, but with some caveats. For once, a country will not be able to leave a sect it is part of as long as that sect has over 50% favor. So, if they want to leave that to join a new one, they will have to first make that favor decrease. To join a sect, a country must not already be at its maximum number of sects allowed, and the sect to join needs to be present in their territory or in the territory of an ally or a subject.

Let me now give a brief overview of the available sects.

Theravada Sects:
Theravada Sects.png

Eastern Buddhism Sects:
Eastern Buddhism Sects.png

You might notice here Confucianism and Daoism; we’ll talk more in-depth about them in the last block of the post, devoted to Sānjiào.

Tibetan Buddhism Sects:
Tibetan Buddhism Sects.png

Some of these Sects may be better known by other names, but we used more generic terms for them due to the fact that they are present in multiple countries:
Meditation School.png

Meditation School spread.png

Some of these schools have other special sets of teachings on top of the main ones, like the ones including Vajrayāna Tantric practices, giving some extra actions to the countries that belong to them.
Tantric Practices.png

Tantric Actions.png

There are also two other Buddhist religions I want to talk about, which were pending from previous Tinto Talks. For starters, let’s talk once again about Shintō. As mentioned in its own Tinto Talks, Shintō countries have the ability to Favor Buddhist Schools, and mentioned that that action gives them access to interact with the general Buddhist mechanics. That means that when performing this action, they will gain the same abilities related to the sects, with some costs associated with that:
Favor Buddhist Schools.png

Shinto Buddhist.png

They will thus be able to join the sects of Eastern Buddhism, although they can only join one, with some extra specifically Japanese sects:
Japanese Sects.png

As an extra note related to the Japanese sects, Jōdo Shinshū will also be created as an additional one during the course of the game.

Another religion in the Buddhist group I want to mention (and that some of you have already noticed) is the new religion we have implemented in China, which we have named Sānjiào, something we did after careful consideration, from the feedback received in Tinto Maps. This is to represent the particular blend of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism (together with many other folk beliefs) that has formed and coexisted in China for centuries. As such, a country following Sānjiào will automatically belong to the Confucianism and Daoism Sects, and they will get both the Righteousness and Harmony currencies. On top of that, they will be able to join one extra sect of Eastern Buddhism:
Sanjiao.png

Sanjiao Panel.png


Confucianims.png

Daoism.png

As you can see, these enable two special currencies: Righteousness and Harmony respectively:
Righteousness.png

Harmony.png


Sanjiao Map.png

And that’s all for today! Tomorrow, there will be a post about the process behind the Audio and the OST of the game, while on Friday’s Tinto Flavour, we will take a look at Majapahit!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
  • 122Like
  • 59Love
  • 12
  • 10
  • 5
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
I think it’s wonderful to add more regionally distinctive flavours. However, would it be possible to refer to Korean Peninsula Buddhism by a name other than Bulgyo? As I understand it, Bulgyo is simply the Korean reading of the two Chinese characters for ‘Buddhism’ (佛教), and although I’m not an expert in Korean, I believe that in Korean — as in Japanese (Bukkyō) — there’s no clear distinction between Theravāda, Mahāyāna, or Tibetan Buddhism: they’re all generally referred to as Bulgyo. This is also true of Fójiào in Mandarin and Phật giáo in Vietnamese. While this might be fine in English, I feel that in the Korean, Japanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese versions, it could be difficult to distinguish it from the general term for Buddhism as a whole.

Wikipedia talks of a certain Tongbulgyo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Buddhism said:
Korean Buddhism is distinguished from other forms of Buddhism by its attempt to resolve what its early practitioners saw as inconsistencies within the Mahayana Buddhist traditions that they received from foreign countries. To address this, they developed a new holistic approach to Buddhism that became a distinct form, an approach characteristic of virtually all major Korean thinkers. The resulting variation is called Tongbulgyo ("interpenetrated Buddhism"), a form that sought to harmonize previously arising disputes among scholars (a principle called hwajaeng 和諍).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongbulgyo said:
Tongbulgyo is a school of "interpenetrated Buddhism" which was taught by the Korean monk Wonhyo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonhyo said:
Another element of his harmonization method was to draw on Huayan metaphysics of interpenetration to demonstrate how all Buddhist teachings are ultimately in a state of non-obstruction.[12] Thus one can say that Wohnyo saw all Buddhist doctrines as a harmonious interpenetrating reality, and as such he often called his philosophy "interpenetrated Buddhism" (t'ong pulgyo, 通佛教).

I mean, it's not really a religion or sect but more of a foundational school of thought, so if we need a proper name for a Korean religion, that could be it. Meanwhile the Korean religion would have access to Musok, Huayan, Seon/Chan/Zen etc.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
I suggest changing Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo", another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

View attachment 1321226

Buddhism, which was deeply rooted in Goryeo, like the Sanjiao of China, is a religion developed and formed by absorbing the traditional beliefs and folk beliefs of the korea Three Kingdoms, beginning centuries ago in Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla.

Currently, it seems that "Eastern Buddhism" is a Buddhist denomination shared by countries like Vietnam and those in the Indonesian region, in addition to Goryeo.

I think this aspect can harm the gameplay immersion.

Historically, the Buddhism of Goryeo does not align with the Buddhist traditions of Vietnam and Indonesia. and more.

Of course, you can also adapt Goryeo Buddhism to Eastern Buddhism for the balance of the game.

However, I and other Korean players feel regret.

I earnestly ask the developers,

Please change Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo" , another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

Furthermore, the following could be the sects for Goryeo Bulgyo:

Confucianism유교 (儒敎)
Daoism도교 (道敎)
Jogye Order조계종 (曹溪宗)
Chongji Order총지종 (摠持宗)
Cheontae Order천태종 (天台宗)
Cheontaesoja Order천태소자종 (天台小滋宗)
Cheontaebeopsa Order천태법사종 (天台法師宗)
Hwaeom Order화엄종 (華嚴宗)
Domun Order도문종 (道門宗)
Jaeun Orde자은종 (慈恩宗)
Jungdo Order중도종 (中道宗)
Sinin Order신인종 (神印宗)
Namsan Order남산종 (南山宗)
Siheung Order시흥종 (始興宗)
Musok무속 (巫俗)

Also, I think that countries that believe in Buddhism, such as Vietnam and Thailand, should have Buddhism that fits their cultural traditions like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.
Bulgyo is just the word for "Buddhism" in Korean. How would it work in the Korean language version of the game?
 
Is there any reason that all other religions get the regular monasteries but Orthodox get a different one? Feels a bit inconsistent.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I think it’s wonderful to add more regionally distinctive flavours. However, would it be possible to refer to Korean Peninsula Buddhism by a name other than Bulgyo? As I understand it, Bulgyo is simply the Korean reading of the two Chinese characters for ‘Buddhism’ (佛教), and although I’m not an expert in Korean, I believe that in Korean — as in Japanese (Bukkyō) — there’s no clear distinction between Theravāda, Mahāyāna, or Tibetan Buddhism: they’re all generally referred to as Bulgyo. This is also true of Fójiào in Mandarin and Phật giáo in Vietnamese. While this might be fine in English, I feel that in the Korean, Japanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese versions, it could be difficult to distinguish it from the general term for Buddhism as a whole.
As a Korean, that is correct. Bulgyo should not be used as a name to represent a distinct Korean Buddhism syncretized with local faiths. Even "Korean Buddhism" is better. The term would not work in East Asian language versions of the game.
 
Why would a country want to have some sects grow bigger or on the opposite become thinner ? Apart eventually from the case where one wants to change sects. But why wouldn't I simply take my sects, take the boni, and let this part of religion completely untouched for the rest of the game ?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Is there anything you can do to make a sects spread faster than 1 location at a time? Like a reformation era advance or a cabinet action?

I see harmony is back, but nothing about harmonizing other religions. Is that gone? I really enjoyed doing that
No, and no.
@Roger Corominas has brought to my attention that my phrasing might have not been the best regarding Harmonization. What I wanted to say is "No, there isn't an Harmonizing mechanic as in EU4 in EU5." Sorry for any potential misunderstanding.
 
  • 15Like
  • 4
Reactions:
I'll probably make another post/thread about it, but

EU4 Karma is a terrible implementation imo. Paradox implemented it as if it were "Aggressive vs Peaceful", when it's "Bad vs Good". And Bad is always bad, there's no upside to it.

IIRC it was also said Karma has an equilibrium, which is incorrect. If you have Karma, be it good or bad, it *will* bear fruit. You should always suffer (or enjoy) the consequences of Karma, be it in this life or in the next one. It would make more sense to add equilibrium to Self Control imo, if we were to add it to anything at all.

I am also not sure if the middle should be the way, even though the Buddha talked about the, huh, Middle Way. You follow the Middle Way to avoid suffering, which generates Karma, but that does not mean you are trying to "balance good deeds with bad deeds", you are trying to break free of samsara. Karma is correlated with that, but is not necessarily the path to it. Someone who became a Buddha would not be in the middle of the Karma slider, they'd be either locked in +100 Karma or fully outside of the system. Because of this, I think the middle threshold (-33 to +33) should either not exist, or have different (but arguably weaker) modifiers to the positive threshold (+33 to 100). Actually, as of writing, I just got an idea...

Finally, there's the Karma description which I found peculiar.

Karma1.jpg


"the past deeds of a Country". AFAIK Karma is not based on the country, it's based on the person. It's the person's past deeds (and intentions, depending on the religion/school) that generate/attract Karma. So it should depend on what the ruler does, and it should affect the ruler directly. Technically every character should have a Karma slider but this is not CK3, so we limit it to the ruler. Following this, the modifiers should ideally be more ruler-centered, so for example you should not get Discipline from it, but rather a General trait that gives Discipline. But I admit that's much easier said than done.

Honestly, all in all, it feels like Paradox mistook Karma for Yin-Yang and nobody bothered to correct course in all these years lol.

So, If It Were Me™, I'd change Karma to this (all scaled modifers):

Negative Karma:
-10% Estates Satisfaction Equilibrium
-10% Clergy Satisfaction Equilibrium [so it amounts to -20%]
-2 Tolerance of True Faith

Neutral Karma:
-25% Stability Cost [or +0.025 Stability Investment, idk how it works tbh]
-50% Karma Gain
-50% Karma Loss

Positive Karma:
+10% Estates Satisfaction Equilibrium
+10% Clergy Satisfaction Equilibrium [so it amounts to +20%]
+2 Tolerance of True Faith

I don't remember where I read it (Wikipedia?), but there's also a vicious/virtuous cycle in Karma, in that doing bad deeds makes it easier for the person to do even more bad deeds, and the same applies to good deeds. Tbh it's obvious in hindsight, if you are a terrible person you'll keep being terrible out of habit... So I guess neutral Karma could be the "stable path". It's more difficult to get out of it than the others, and you also has to invest less to maintain Stability.

Finally, there should be "Karma farming" Religious Actions. This isn't even a gamey tactic, laypeople do it to this day lmao, it's part of their religious practices. Some of my suggestions are:

-Donate to the Sangha: Pays 6 months of Income, Clergy receives the Income; +10 Karma, +1 Yearly Karma, +10% Clergy Power for 10 years
-Organize a Pilgrimage: Ruler Unavailable for 6 months; +0.5 Yearly Karma for 5 years
-Offer Relief to the Peasants: -20% Peasant Tax, +10% Peasant Satisfaction Equilibrium, +0.5 Yearly Karma for 10 years

Then you'd also have other sources of Karma like building a temple, developing a province etc. There should be some Actions where you pay with Karma too, but I don't know what they could be.

Also: this is all considering Karma has to be a one-dimensional slider. Because *technically* there should be two 0-100 sliders, one for Good and other for Bad Karma. I can understand sacrificing that for gameplay, but if we wanted to be fully historical we'd need two sliders.
Bookmarking this suggestion, thanks!
 
  • 22Like
  • 4
  • 2
  • 1Love
Reactions:
Any chance you add a Neo-Confucianism sect which acts almost the same as Confucianism, but forces all other Sects to be Disfavored?
We've also taken note of all the suggestions to better portray Neo-Confucianism, and it's something we want to incorporate. Thanks!
 
  • 14Like
  • 6
  • 5
  • 2Love
Reactions:
I think it’s wonderful to add more regionally distinctive flavours. However, would it be possible to refer to Korean Peninsula Buddhism by a name other than Bulgyo? As I understand it, Bulgyo is simply the Korean reading of the two Chinese characters for ‘Buddhism’ (佛教), and although I’m not an expert in Korean, I believe that in Korean — as in Japanese (Bukkyō) — there’s no clear distinction between Theravāda, Mahāyāna, or Tibetan Buddhism: they’re all generally referred to as Bulgyo. This is also true of Fójiào in Mandarin and Phật giáo in Vietnamese. While this might be fine in English, I feel that in the Korean, Japanese, Chinese, or Vietnamese versions, it could be difficult to distinguish it from the general term for Buddhism as a whole.
The term "Ogyo Yangjong (五敎兩宗)" might be more historically appropriate than "Bulgyo" to represent Goryeo Buddhism.

"Ogyo Yangjong (五敎兩宗)" is a collective term for all Buddhist sects in Goryeo after the 12th century, and historical records indicate its usage began in the mid-13th century during the Goryeo period.
 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
Reactions:
Bookmarking this suggestion, thanks!

Great to know!

Also I forgot to say but you could also add Reincarnation to Karma. CK3 has it and it's nothing too out there: at age 9, you have a 4% chance of discovering you're a reincarnation of an ancestor. You then inherit one of their traits and get the Reincarnation trait (+1 Monthly Piety, +5 Same Faith Opinion). In EUV, it could be a 5% chance of finding out you're a reincarnation of a past ruler, then you get a ruler modifier giving Yearly Karma (-1 to +1) scaled on the ancestor's Karma on death and one of their traits (positive if Good/Neutral, negative if Bad).
 
2. There's some content related to this process, although we want to improve a bit how it's linked to the religion. What you can actually do is to favor Confucianism over the other sects.
Can you outlaw, or at least limit, monasteries? Iirc this happened several times in history in different places, like for example some time in the Tang dynasty, but there are examples of it also happening in Europe in the age of absolutism, with Joseph II for example closed monasteries of contemplative orders. It would be a great feature to play with, and would also have mechanical implications (clergy power, opinion etc.)

Can the Emperor of China hire Daoist alchemists to give him mercury poisoning try to invent the elixir of immortality?
 
@Roger Corominas has brought to my attention that my phrasing might have not been the best regarding Harmonization. What I wanted to say is "No, there isn't an Harmonizing mechanic as in EU4 in EU5." Sorry for any potential misunderstanding.
It's great that there’s no harmonising mechanic like in EU4. I was wondering if there might be a way to introduce more interaction with other religions within the Sānjiào system. For example, in a country where Muslims make up a significant portion of the population, or where the ruler is Muslim, could there be an option to activate a Huíjiào sect — either as a replacement for one of the three Buddhist sects, or even as a potential fourth sect? During the Ming and Qing dynasties, there were indeed some Christian or Muslim scholar-officials. While these religions ultimately never became as integrated into the Chinese way of life as Buddhism did, the historical possibility is still quite compelling.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
In general I think for some states it should be possible to have multible state religions and not trying blending so many together, something like:
If you have a non-monotheistic state religion and have an advance which many east asian states have from the starts you can heve multible state religions
 
Last edited:
I suggest changing Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo" or "Ogyo Yangjong", another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

View attachment 1321665

Buddhism, which was deeply rooted in Goryeo, like the Sanjiao of China, is a religion developed and formed by absorbing the traditional beliefs and folk beliefs of the korea Three Kingdoms, beginning centuries ago in Goguryeo, Baekje, and Silla.

Currently, it seems that "Eastern Buddhism" is a Buddhist denomination shared by countries like Vietnam and those in the Indonesian region, in addition to Goryeo.

I think this aspect can harm the gameplay immersion.

Historically, the Buddhism of Goryeo does not align with the Buddhist traditions of Vietnam and Indonesia. and more.

Of course, you can also adapt Goryeo Buddhism to Eastern Buddhism for the balance of the game.

However, I and other Korean players feel regret.

I earnestly ask the developers,

Please change Goryeo from Eastern Buddhism to "Bulgyo" or "Ogyo Yangjong" , another religion of the Buddhist group, like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.

Also, "Ogyo Yangjong (五敎兩宗)"
is a collective term for all Buddhist sects in Goryeo after the 12th century, and historical records indicate its usage began in the mid-13th century during the Goryeo period.

Furthermore, the following could be the sects for Goryeo Bulgyo:

Confucianism유교 (儒敎)
Daoism도교 (道敎)
Jogye Order조계종 (曹溪宗)
Chongji Order총지종 (摠持宗)
Cheontae Order천태종 (天台宗)
Cheontaesoja Order천태소자종 (天台小滋宗)
Cheontaebeopsa Order천태법사종 (天台法師宗)
Hwaeom Order화엄종 (華嚴宗)
Domun Order도문종 (道門宗)
Jaeun Orde자은종 (慈恩宗)
Jungdo Order중도종 (中道宗)
Sinin Order신인종 (神印宗)
Namsan Order남산종 (南山宗)
Siheung Order시흥종 (始興宗)
Musok무속 (巫俗)

Also, I think that countries that believe in Buddhism, such as Vietnam and Thailand, should have Buddhism that fits their cultural traditions like Shinto in Japan or Sanjiao in China.
Well, what do you think about this "Gyo" in CK3?

Gyo.png
 
Well, what do you think about this "Gyo" in CK3?

View attachment 1321827
That is only one school of Buddhism, the rival of Seon (Meditation School). CK3 hasn't talked much about their plans but they are seemingly representing all kinds of sects as different religions.

That would not be consistent with the EU5 approach to Buddhism at all. And it is not a religion that would represent all traditions like Confucianism, Musok, Daoism, even Meditation School Buddhism.
 
Korean Buddhism differs significantly from China's "Sanjiao" in terms of its religious characteristics. The separation between Confucianism and Buddhism is more distinct, and it is even more separate from certain mystical elements that are often seen in Taoism in China.

Even if Joseon is established, the characteristics of Buddhism will not change. It is only that, due to the political landscape, the teaching sect within Buddhism will decline greatly and the Zen sect will become the mainstream. Nothing is the same as that "Sanjiao."

Especially when considering that "Sanjiao" is a mixture of Buddhism, Confucianism, "Taoism and Chinese folk beliefs", it is even more dissimilar.

Leaving aside 'that' folk beliefs, the Korean view of religion isn't "Taoist" at all.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
The other issue is modifier stacking. The more different mechanics in EU5 provide modifiers, the more attractive stacking them becomes.
We're aware of this issue, as we have worked on late EU4. One of the brainstormings we had in the first or second year of the project was 'how to limit modifier stacking'. In general terms, there are fewer sources of modifiers that you can stack, as there are way fewer perma-modifiers (we've been very restrictive with this in the content, so as not to have an event that gives a modifier until the end of the campaign, for example). And on those sources of modifiers, there's usually a trade-off in what you select. So, specializing in a country on some modifier farming is still possible, but is far less important than in EU4.
 
  • 12Like
  • 4
Reactions:
I can see what the idea was behind the initial concept of having most of East Asia under Mahayana: Buddhism allows several sects to be recognized by the state, and I guess the idea for China, Korea and others was that Confucianism and Daoism would have been accepted sects in that system, although it created the problem, pointed out by many, that Daoism and Confucianism were heavily syncretic with but also definitely not Buddhist schools of thought themselves.

The situation is definitely better now with Sanjiao, at least for China, but I think the problem still exists for Korea, because just like it was going to be awkward to consider China a Buddhist state when the dominant ideology was Confucianism, it's going to be even more awkward to portray how historically in this period the Korean government would end up persecuting and driving Buddhism underground in the name of Neo-Confucian orthodoxy... All while being labelled as having "Eastern Buddhist" religion. It's also awkward how the Buddhist group ends up having a lot of definitely not, or not properly Buddhist religions in them, I guess as a way to represent how Buddhism syncretism was all over the place in East and South-East Asia, but they seemingly don't share a group with Hinduism and Jainism, which should be fairly close religions too.

Maybe a way to handle this is to give Vietnam and Korea their own versions of Sanjiao and "Shintoism" too (aka, local religions heavily syncretized with Buddhism too), and then put these 4 religions into their own "Taoic" group, while the remaining Buddhist religions would go into the Dharmic group. Taoic religions that accept Buddhist sects then would go on having very high acceptance of Buddhist religions, and vice versa specifically Buddhist religions would have high tolerance of Taoic ones. But I don't think that the devs might want to redesign the whole religion of East Asia all over again.
Thanks for the feedback!
I definitely don't envy having to design such a religiously messy region while having all kinds of contradictory proposals being thrown at you, each having at least some decent points.
This is a super good point. We'll try to improve the design as much as possible, but it's also an easy task to do so, while reflecting the view of the majority.
 
  • 18Like
  • 4
  • 3Love
  • 1
Reactions: