This is the first team for Italy
Borghese is already a navy leader available in the leader's pool.
Borghese is already a navy leader available in the leader's pool.
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Ok. Areas of research seem to be appropriate. But the skill should be definitely lowered to 3 because the best naval doctrine team of Italy has 4 and Italy was particularly strong in submarines I think. What do you think?
Please post additional 3-4 teams. I think that all majors should get 4-6 new teams while medium powers 2-4.
Italy has crappy teams in aeronautics because at the beginning of the war and for a while later Italian manifacturers had not a good engine. As soon as Italy finally got the licence from Germany for a decent engine (Daimler-Benz DB 601-605) then the airplaines designed/developed/produced were among the best. Please find below a quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggiane_Re.2005:
"The Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario (English: Archer) was an Italian monoplane fighter/fighter-bomber produced for the Regia Aeronautica during the later years of World War II. Considered by many "the most beautiful plane of second world war" [2] it was, along with the Macchi C.202/C.205 and Fiat G.55, one of the three "Serie 5" Italian fighters built around the famous Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine. Only 48 examples had been delivered, before Armistice, these fighter fighting in the defence of Naples, Rome and Sicily, the survivors battling above the crumbling ruins of Berlin, with German insignia. [3] "The Re.2005 was altogether a superb, potent aeroplane", observed Group Captain Duncan Smith, DSO DFC.[4]"
Now I have a question: are you available to consider that? If yes by event it should be handled an increase in skills and specialization of the Italian research teams.
"The Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario (English: Archer) was an Italian monoplane fighter/fighter-bomber produced for the Regia Aeronautica during the later years of World War II. Considered by many "the most beautiful plane of second world war" [2] it was, along with the Macchi C.202/C.205 and Fiat G.55, one of the three "Serie 5" Italian fighters built around the famous Daimler-Benz DB 605 engine. Only 48 examples had been delivered, before Armistice, these fighter fighting in the defence of Naples, Rome and Sicily, the survivors battling above the crumbling ruins of Berlin, with German insignia. [3] "The Re.2005 was altogether a superb, potent aeroplane", observed Group Captain Duncan Smith, DSO DFC.[4]"
Now I have a question: are you available to consider that? If yes by event it should be handled an increase in skills and specialization of the Italian research teams.
Sorry but no. If you want to take over the lead of this thread I would gladly hand over it to you. I have already posted my priorities which can be summed up like - small goals = job done quickly, enough quickly to be implemented in Arsenal of democracy, not in mod for Arsenal of democracy.
So it means:
1. no event-triggered changes in tech teams
2. no complicated considerations of ahistorical routes (Poland or CZE succesful in defending against GER and so on...)
That implies - please stick to the plain scheme: add a team with skill, areas of research, picture, start date, end date. Finished.
Is this ahistorical?
"The Re.2005 'Sagittario' was a potent aircraft. Having had a dog-fight with one of them, I am convinced we would have been hard pressed to cope in our Spitfires operationally, if the Italians or Germans had had a few Squadrons equipped with these aircrafts at the beginning of the Sicily campaign or in operations from Malta. Fast, and with excellent manoeuvrability, the Re.2005 was altogether a superb aeroplane. Neither the Macchi 205 nor the Me 109G measured up to the capabilities of the Re.2005 series in manoeuvrability or rate of climb. I think it was easily the best aircraft Italy produced. It is a pity that no Re.2001/5s survive this day because they were fine examples of Italian engineering craftsmanship."
Role Fighter
Manufacturer Reggiane
First flight 9 May 1942
Introduced April/May 1943
Retired 1945
Sorry, I probably didn't make myself absolutely clear. I want all guys involved not just to be reasonable, historical and so on, but also to stick to all errors and prejudice they might find in HoI2. We don't have the capabilities to make a complete overhaul of research in the game. If you think otherwise, prove me wrong and get the people who will do it.
Giving strong tech teams to Italy would lead to disbalance if other countries were not empowered as well.
I generally think that the new teams should be, on average, as good (or worse, definitely not better) as the vanilla HoI2 teams. Please keep in mind that we won't have time to test it much and we all want the dev team to incorporate our suggestions in the new game.
Are you a member of the AoD team?
I'm sorry but I completely disagree. As showed Italy had a production issue not a research problem.
No. As I posted several times before, if anybody else wants to take over the lead, I would be glad.
It means forcing some rules on the contributors and creating a zip file with new teams to be easily implemented by the AoD team.
You are correct. But please take into account these things. And this is not the first time I repeat it here:
1. We have not got much time!
2. Radical changes in tech teams would need some testing! Who would do it?
3. AoD team is NOT taking part in this initiative so we are on our own. If we present to them a zip file with the new teams soon and it does not contain ANY significant changes to gameplay, they will test it and then DECIDE whether to implement it or not. So there is no place for neverending arguments, see?
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As long as I know nobody has been appointed. This means, in my opinion, that all suggestions should be submitted here, verified by the historical point of view and tested in order to understand if they create any game unbalance.
Any change should be tested. Is not serious at all deliver something has not been tested.
I mentioned the paratroopers, but I didn't add them.
I actually think it should happen. Now, with techteams learning, better funded, so essentially often used Enfield would learn faster - so it could, in time reach level 7...
I cannot go under 5 in any way. And that is only possible if I drop two ground doctrine teams which is unrealistic.
Of course the one thing worth remembering is that each of them is useful in a different branch of the doctrine tree so only one will be used at a time. In most of the cases at least.
It is either this or that. So it will only provide more choices.
It is no effort. I worked on improvements for CORE.
See this - teams for three different POL incarnations, obviously - those are all the teams a faction could get and some replace others :
Secret State
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo69/cegorach77/ak.jpg
Semi-democratic -> Communist -> Stalinist period and changes
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo69/cegorach77/noweteamy-dopoprawienia.jpg
Continuation Poland with some post 1939, some alternative and some industrialisation options:
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo69/cegorach77/teamy-polska.jpg
That was some effort (fascist Poland and exiled Poland - doctrine teams only - are left for now), but in CORE major powers have over 70 techteams and the techtree is much more complicated.
It is relative- world class level - clearly yes - only cryptology and intelligence networks (especially after we know more from recently de-classified British archieves) would count.
When it comes to regional level also aeronautic industry and chemistry.
While if details are concerned (such as certain technologies or inventiontions) it will be obviously more numerous (in radar techs, radio communication, rocketry etc).
IN any case I proposed one techteam - in for radar techs.
OK. So I am dropping all post-war teams. But my proposals stay and can be used if anyone is willing to add them.
OK. Here is the final proposal.
Added are 7 techteams - if something must be removed it would better be additional ground warfare doctrine teams.
3 teams for doctrines - each highly specialised, two of them for ground warfare.
One, vanilla team is dropped - the Ministry of Defence because if it is supposed to be 'continuation' Poland it shouldn't ever appear.
One team for rocketry, radars and chemistry - each one was decently or well researched before the war.
And one for industry, but with better industrial team - the COP - moved to 1937 so it works rather as a disadvantage than an improvement.
The teams shouldn't be too useful to research anything else than the areas they are designed for, so in some cases (TKDN, Dowództwo broni Pancernych) I still have my doubts.
It might be a good idea to lower initial skill in those cases to prevent them from becoming too good too early, but all things considering it shouldn't happen.
Their skill is set for the Arsenal of Democracy so might be too small for vanilla - simply if there will be resources to maintain the research the teams will become better, but because I am assuming that teams WON'T be able to gain more specialities and only receive higher skill their initial design should stay the way it is.
Remember though that POL is no Afghanistan or Albania and that these teams are based on real achievements of real people in real life - not some super-powered Poland someone could create in HoI II ( which is easy) and as it is it should be assumed that at least some level of development/research might be achieved in the game without conquering neighbours to gain more slots using exactly those teams.
Finally some vanilla teams were modified - see page 2 and my proposals - but usually at the cost of lowered skill (by 1) - especially Ulam and Banach.
Here is the techteam file and the images:
http://rapidshare.com/files/286861955/new_POL_teams.rar
Again I repeat I can provide some information about these teams - even if I have to translate, but it will take a while and it really is time consuming and takes some effort so please don't ask unless you tried to search the web for a while first.
Wonders can be achived if the right form of a question is spelled. With those names it should be MUCH easier.
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Ok. 5 new teams is good considering that Poland was an important country during the war after all.
I have downloaded your files. Thank you. Please let me know which 5 teams are your choice. Your modifications of vanilla teams seem to be reasonable and balanced. I will start working on the final tech and pictures files.
Everyone, can we agree that 5 new teams is a maximum for any country? I don't want to see 5 new teams for Poland and zero for the USA or something similar. We must get people, preferably from the specific countries, to take the task responsibly.
I think that in 14 days from now we should be able to get as many people as possible. I don't want to do the rest of the countries myself. I feel I can take full responsibility only for CZE new teams.
Hey, I am a Czech and I know that Poland was not backwards in military in 1938-39, at least compared to UK, France or USSR. To say the truth, the only two European countries prepared for war in 1938 were Germany and Czechoslovakia.
Hi cegorach, you understand the fear of everybody that such modifications can alter the game balance. Could you please test them and let us know the outcome?
For the test I would suggest
1) play as minor like Tibet and see what happens
2) play as Poland and see what you can do against Germans
3) play as Germany and see what you can do against Polish
Wasn't Rokkossovki's Polish name like Konstanty Rokkosowski or something?
I think I've spelled them both wrong but you guys get what I mean.
I think Poland should get another AirDoctrine TT, they only have one, and they had a sizeable airforce, with decent technology.
I think I've spelled them both wrong but you guys get what I mean.
I think Poland should get another AirDoctrine TT, they only have one, and they had a sizeable airforce, with decent technology.
Polish - Rokossowski
English transcription of the Russian version - Rokossovskiy (original - Рокоссо́вский)
BTW, would you like to suggest a few US or Hungarian new teams? (considering your location and avatar)
Italy had a very powerful Navy but, as mentioned earlier, its power was not adequately used. So if 5 is the middle (less then sufficient which is 6) Ricciardi should be 4.
Regarding Borghese, as shown by my research, he did a great job (which should be 8 or more). Considering that we should keep the game balance 5 or 6 should be the right skill.
Every country had it's stuff. Argentina had a nuclear programme in the '50s (I'm an Argie myself 
), and the TT "Comision Nacional de Energia Atomica" (National Commitee for Atomic Energy) has no nuclear speciality. Which sucks balls, imo. But having some random South American country with nukes isn't cool, either. It's about choosing the lesser of two evils. So please, put your flags down, and let's focus in what's needed, and not what's wanted. I think the Poles can live without radars and rockets, as much as the Italians can live with TTs of an average level of 4. However, the Poles could really use a Chemistry TT, and a perma Math/Electronics and land doctrine, and I'd have Teseo Tesei as a Submarine/Small Task Force TT for Italy till '41, for instance. There are many things to be added that wouldn't be ahistorical, gamebreaking nor nationalist. It can be done without any excessive team adding. I know we all would like to see our countries be fully represented, but that can't be done. So let's make the effort and keep it short and simple.
Btw, I'll take a shot at Spain, can't promise anything, though
), and the TT "Comision Nacional de Energia Atomica" (National Commitee for Atomic Energy) has no nuclear speciality. Which sucks balls, imo. But having some random South American country with nukes isn't cool, either. It's about choosing the lesser of two evils. So please, put your flags down, and let's focus in what's needed, and not what's wanted. I think the Poles can live without radars and rockets, as much as the Italians can live with TTs of an average level of 4. However, the Poles could really use a Chemistry TT, and a perma Math/Electronics and land doctrine, and I'd have Teseo Tesei as a Submarine/Small Task Force TT for Italy till '41, for instance. There are many things to be added that wouldn't be ahistorical, gamebreaking nor nationalist. It can be done without any excessive team adding. I know we all would like to see our countries be fully represented, but that can't be done. So let's make the effort and keep it short and simple.Btw, I'll take a shot at Spain, can't promise anything, though
Italy has only TWO tech teams with skill 6 - Fermi and Macchi. Fermi has only 2 areas of research, Macchi 3. For me, another team with skill 6 + 4 areas of research is absolutely unacceptable because there is no guarantee that the gameplay wouldn't be affected.
The only Italian naval doctrine team has skill 4 and he is focused on fleet-in-being doctrine. Are you trying to say that Italy had in real life a submarine tech team with level 6? And even if so, it changes nothing because the introduction of this team would lead to serious unbalance in Italian naval performance.
Your suggestion should take the vanilla teams into account. The balance of the game is SACRED because nobody is going to carry out the PROPER testing.
In my view, the ultimate purpose of new teams is
1. add some flavour (based on historical background)
2. some new but not significant possibilities in research for players
I repeat, if you want to make a more dramatic overhaul of tech teams, you can do it and I will gladly participate. I am just trying to get some people to post suggestions and transform them to the balanced small pack of new teams which would be acceptable for AoD team to include it in the new game, not in any mod.
I could myself elaborate tens Czech tech teams and justify their utmost importance in history but I am not going to do it because I just simply don't want to make Czech enhancement mod. I would like some new team to REALLY appear in Arsenal of Democracy and the endless quarrels like this is not going to help in this effort!
Athe:
Thank you very much for your support and your understanding what I am trying to say. I will add your nick to both Spains in the list on page 2 of this thread, ok?
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Teseo Tesei was killed in action so, like Balbo, it should be decided to withdraw a team because such kind of events. The alternative, as I said, is Borghese. Regarding the outcomes it's the 4th time I guess that I'm suggesting to have a look what historically happened instead of judging without any ground.
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As I said the tests are needed in order to understand if the game balance would be altered.
As I said 4 is right because of the historical results
I'm saying that the judgement should be based on the history. Please find again the historical outcomes
"everybody knows that the Italian Navy cost a lot of resources to Italy but it was almost ineffective. I would like to point you attention to the Italian's frogmen that by the end of the war sunk, or severely damaged, 86,000 tons of Allied warships and 131,527 tons of merchant shipping. Please find below a short list and a link to a webpage
NAME TONNAGE LOCATION DATE
Durham 10,900 Tons Gibraltar Sep, 1941
Baron Douglas 3,900 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Raven's Point 1,900 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Kaituna 10,000 Tons Mersin July, 1943
Meta 1,600 Tons Gibraltar July, 1942
Camerata 4,900 Tons Gibraltar May, 1943
Stanridge 6,000 Tons Gibraltar Aug, 1943
Queen Elizabeth 32,000 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Valiant 31,000 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Harmattan 4,600 Tons Algiers Dec, 1942
Jervis 1,700 Tons Alexandria Dec, 1941
Mahsud 7,500 Tons Gibraltar May, 1943
Fernplant 7,000 Tons Iskenderun Aug, 1943
Empire Centaur 7,000 Tons Algiers Dec, 1942 "
Who and when will do this testing???
The game is going to be released probably in December and Balesir wrote:
"If a set of files are done in time for us to check and incorporate at launch, who knows?"
So we should hand over the finished files in advance which means that we have at maximum 2 months. This thread is here nearly a month and very little was accomplished so far.
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