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So the largest democracy is born! It will be a hard test for its leaders to hold the federation together, but with large autonomy for muslim-majority areas this could very well worked out to be a splendid place.
Also with no partition the Punjab would be one of the richest provinces in India and more importantly the breadbasket of the federation.
Great update, as always! Oh and I do wonder how decolonization will work out in this timeline.
Also with no partition the Punjab would be one of the richest provinces in India and more importantly the breadbasket of the federation.
Great update, as always! Oh and I do wonder how decolonization will work out in this timeline.
A war against British or Japanese imperialism?
Think more cleaning up Dutch messes.
Herm. It varies. I personally don't think WW2 mattere enormously except insofar as it altered European perceptions of their power. Nationalist groups were on the upsurge, after all.
I tried hard to expand this post, but it was fairly difficult. Think of the ways the British screwed u pin OTL:
1) Refusing to promise Indian independence postwar, or even dominion status.
2) Then deciding to accept Jinnah's offer to work with the regime.
3) The Cripps mission, which raised Indian hopes but was set up by Churchill and Linithglow to fail.
3) Churchill's utter indifference to the Bengal famine.
This does suggest what happens in God of War 4, doesn't it?
Prosperous, democratic India with a land border with Persia, Afghanistan and Tibet. This is bound to be interesting in the future.
That's a very good point. India is surrounded by potentially troublesome countries.
The Constitution of India...good gracious!
It almost seems like the way to keep India's diversive population under control is to bore them to sleep with this ungodly long document.The Constitution of India...good gracious!
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:SOM:EN:HTML
Faeelin, there is an inaccuracy in your last post--the term "human rights" comes out of the Second World War, and the Holocaust, because people realized that Hitler invading Luxembourg was against international law while him killing millions of his own people wasn't.
I'm pretty sure it only became an actual phrase in the aftermath of the Second World War.
I'm pretty sure it only became an actual phrase in the aftermath of the Second World War.
What's the citation for that? I know the Universal Declaration was after WW2, but I just had a class in Human Rights and the origin of the term (as well as its implications) would be pretty huge considering, you know, colonies. Not that I doubt you, it had to come from somewhere, I'm just interested.
You sure know a lot about pre-Islamic Iran, I was very impressed by your description of Kurd-Iranian politics; good job and I'll be reading.
You sure know a lot about pre-Islamic Iran, I was very impressed by your description of Kurd-Iranian politics; good job and I'll be reading.
Thanks. Iran has actually turned out to be one of my favorite parts of the AAR, because it's way more complex than traditional portrayals of the Shah in this period.
Well there were colonies after WW2 as well, no?
I would say the notion of human rights certainly preexisted the 1948 Declaration on Human Rights. The League Charter referenced people's rights to a livelihood and freedom of expression; the idea of "humanitarian" interventions existed in the 19th and early 20th century (though usually serving as a cloak for imperialist aggrandizement), and the idea that all humans have certain inalienable rights can be traced back to the Enlightenment.
Now, if your argument is that the UN Declaration was a novel development because it was the first worldwide treaty, I'd agree. But I suspect something like that would be inevitable. And within Europe itself, there will be a Convention on Human Rights coming out of the Balkans Crisis.
It's the same problem as the one I mentioned a page ago--after WW2 the realist European nations had minuscule power compared to the far more idealistic United States. That, combined with the horror of the Holocaust, pressed the concept of human rights forward. Would a treaty occur eventually? I think so, but I think it would be far less revolutionary than the OTL document. However, in this timeline the colonies have a stronger hold, especially with the federation of India. So we'll need to wait and see.
My argument was simply that the term wasn't in widespread use at the time--it didn't really even achieve widespread use OTL (except as a joke) until the 70's.
edit--and though the enlightenment had the concept of inalienable rights I would disagree that those rights were for all human beings. They were certainly forward thinking, but they were mostly for males who were of whatever race the particular philosopher liked.
My argument was simply that the term wasn't in widespread use at the time--it didn't really even achieve widespread use OTL (except as a joke) until the 70's.
edit--and though the enlightenment had the concept of inalienable rights I would disagree that those rights were for all human beings. They were certainly forward thinking, but they were mostly for males who were of whatever race the particular philosopher liked.
That is certainly true.
The idea that all men are created equal is one that has evolved over time to include more people.
As the convoy of lorries down the road dusty road, Nieh Ho-'Ting smiled. It was one more of the Kuomintang's many gifts from the foreign devils, used by Chiang to ferry supplies to the front. But Stalin had given Mao gifts of his own…
A voice spoke up. "Excuse me, I don’t mean to complain, but weren't we in the middle of discussing the rape of my daughter and the deaths of my people?"
Nieh was so perplexed he didn't even aim his Kalishnokov at the newcomer. "Err. Who are you?"
"I'm one of the Bosniaks that nobody in Europe gives a shit about because we're Muslim."
"The who?"
"Well, if this had been updated more recently than months ago maybe you'd know!"
An explosion rocked the world around them as the Communist troops opened fire, but Nieh ignored it. "Look, Chiang's overextended his supply lines in his drive into Manchuria. This is our chance to strike back and envelope some of his forces, beginning a great march south."
"Wait, aren't you just a corporal or something? So we're supposed to believe Mao went around telling you guys his grand strategy? I bet you know when the next shipment of T-34s is gonna reach Harbin too."
"…. Historical records from the final phases of the Chinese Civil War are spotty at best!"
"Also, aren't we young men? Why do we never talk about finding a cute girl to fuck?"
"That's probably the failing on the part of the author. Probably has never even been with a girl."
"Could be worse. If he based it on his dating experiences one of us would quote Mises and the German need for Elsass-Lothringen after passing out at a gay discoteque."
A young woman in a sari shrugged. "Listen, at least you got more than 'Look, the peaceful space filling empire of India.'"
There was an awkward silence. "Let's just return to the history book format."
Although few were aware at the time, as 1945 began Stalin had no desire to see Mao as the master of all of China. The USSR and the KMT had enjoyed cordial relations throughout the 1920s, and the USSR had provided the Chinese with aid against Japan up to the signing of the Soviet-Japanese nonaggression Pact. Chiang was far from a friend to the Capitalist nations of Europe; during the height of the Pacific War he wrote a long screed advocating China's right to lead East Asia towards modernity, in lieu of the destructive and oppressive Europeans. So it should come as no surprise that his first proposal to the CCP was that it should engage in negotiations with the Chiang for the establishment of a united government for China.
It came as no real surprise that the Chinese Civil War broke out once again. Mao was a Soviet ally, and had not Stalin backed Japan? Efforts by the League of Nations to broker a truce broke down, and as the League demobilized, the balance of power in China swung towards the Soviets.
Meanwhile, the Kuotmintang state was collapsing. It turns out it's not easy to rebuild a state wracked by warfare without money; and British loans began to dwindle up. [1] In response, Chiang made personal demands of the businessmen of Shanghai, Guangzhou, Tianjin, and other centers of trade and commerce along the coast. This was not a recipe for love. These predatory practices, the hallmarks of a broken state, extended to China's working class. In Tianjin, the second most important industrial center in China, the party leaders allied themselves with the secret societies that had influence among workers in the textile mills and transportations. The KMT then forced the unions that represented workers to join a citywide union, which then demanded large contributions from the workers. In response to deficits, the government ran the presses; and strangely, wage freezes did not halt a hyperinflation that rivaled 1923 Germany. Chiang hoped a victorious war against the Communists would solidify his control, and to be honest he was always more at home in the field than running a civilian administration. And so, war.
While all of this went on, the CCP cemented its hold on Manchuria and Northern China. Armed with captured Japanese weaponry and prolific Soviet equipment [2], and with thousands of Soviet military, medical, and industrial experts operating behind Mao's lines, Manchuria painfully but rapidly became a Soviet state. It has even been alleged that Mao's writing changed under influence from Moscow. Gone was a free ranging discourse with reference to Chinese history; instead, Mao's writings adopted the terse, doctrinaire style of the Politburo. And so, war.
The conflict broke out in the hot dry months of July. Chiang's forces initially overwhelmed the Communists, expelling them from their positions on the Grand Canal, overrunning Yan'an, and by the end of the year Chiang's campaign, though bloody, had reached the Korean border by the end of 1945. Chiang offered Stalin recognition of the Soviet Union's "special concerns" about Xinjiang, and agreed to recognize the Democratic Republic of Korea. Stalin, of course, promised neutrality.
The first units of the Red Army entered combat in time for a Lunar New Year's offensive which pushed the Kuomintang back to Beijing; and by March, a painful reality was clear. The KMT, without western backing, would be incapable of defeating Mao and Stalin. Even worse, Stalin seemed to have realized this as well.
[1] In some ways, this is worse than OTL; Britain doesn't have the capacity to reconstruct China on its own, and Willkie is happy to make some noise.
[2] Again, this is a marked change from OTL. Stalin didn't really open his armories to Mao until 1947, when the war's outcome was
A voice spoke up. "Excuse me, I don’t mean to complain, but weren't we in the middle of discussing the rape of my daughter and the deaths of my people?"
Nieh was so perplexed he didn't even aim his Kalishnokov at the newcomer. "Err. Who are you?"
"I'm one of the Bosniaks that nobody in Europe gives a shit about because we're Muslim."
"The who?"
"Well, if this had been updated more recently than months ago maybe you'd know!"
An explosion rocked the world around them as the Communist troops opened fire, but Nieh ignored it. "Look, Chiang's overextended his supply lines in his drive into Manchuria. This is our chance to strike back and envelope some of his forces, beginning a great march south."
"Wait, aren't you just a corporal or something? So we're supposed to believe Mao went around telling you guys his grand strategy? I bet you know when the next shipment of T-34s is gonna reach Harbin too."
"…. Historical records from the final phases of the Chinese Civil War are spotty at best!"
"Also, aren't we young men? Why do we never talk about finding a cute girl to fuck?"
"That's probably the failing on the part of the author. Probably has never even been with a girl."
"Could be worse. If he based it on his dating experiences one of us would quote Mises and the German need for Elsass-Lothringen after passing out at a gay discoteque."
A young woman in a sari shrugged. "Listen, at least you got more than 'Look, the peaceful space filling empire of India.'"
There was an awkward silence. "Let's just return to the history book format."
_________________________________________
Although few were aware at the time, as 1945 began Stalin had no desire to see Mao as the master of all of China. The USSR and the KMT had enjoyed cordial relations throughout the 1920s, and the USSR had provided the Chinese with aid against Japan up to the signing of the Soviet-Japanese nonaggression Pact. Chiang was far from a friend to the Capitalist nations of Europe; during the height of the Pacific War he wrote a long screed advocating China's right to lead East Asia towards modernity, in lieu of the destructive and oppressive Europeans. So it should come as no surprise that his first proposal to the CCP was that it should engage in negotiations with the Chiang for the establishment of a united government for China.
We have doubts about one point in your message where it is said that "In the period of the final victory of the Chinese revolution, following the case of the USSR, all political parties, except the CCP, will have to withdraw from the political scene, as this [withdrawal] will consolidate the Chinese revolution substantially." We do not agree with this. We think that various opposition parties in China, representing the middle strata of the Chinese population and standing against the Guomindang clique, will be viable for a long time ahead, and the Chinese Communist party will [have to] attract them for cooperation [aimed] against the Chinese reaction and imperialist powers, while retaining its hegemony, that is the leading position. Probably, some representatives of these parties will have to be incorporated in the Chinese people's democratic government, and the government as such [will have] to be proclaimed as coalition, so as to expand the basis of the government among the population as well as to isolate the imperialists and their Guomindang agents.
It should be kept in mind that after the victory of the people's liberation armies of China— at least, in a postvictory period for which the duration is difficult to define now— the Chinese government, in terms of its policy, will be a national revolutionary-democratic government, rather than a Communist one. This means that nationalization of all lands and cancellation of the private ownership of land, confiscation of properties from the whole, major and petty, industrial and trade bourgeoisie, confiscation of properties from not only large, but middle and small land-owners, who live together with their hired labor, can not be effected yet. It will be necessary to wait for a certain period with these reforms.
It should be kept in mind that after the victory of the people's liberation armies of China— at least, in a postvictory period for which the duration is difficult to define now— the Chinese government, in terms of its policy, will be a national revolutionary-democratic government, rather than a Communist one. This means that nationalization of all lands and cancellation of the private ownership of land, confiscation of properties from the whole, major and petty, industrial and trade bourgeoisie, confiscation of properties from not only large, but middle and small land-owners, who live together with their hired labor, can not be effected yet. It will be necessary to wait for a certain period with these reforms.
-Joseph Stalin, Instructions to Chairman Mao
It came as no real surprise that the Chinese Civil War broke out once again. Mao was a Soviet ally, and had not Stalin backed Japan? Efforts by the League of Nations to broker a truce broke down, and as the League demobilized, the balance of power in China swung towards the Soviets.
Meanwhile, the Kuotmintang state was collapsing. It turns out it's not easy to rebuild a state wracked by warfare without money; and British loans began to dwindle up. [1] In response, Chiang made personal demands of the businessmen of Shanghai, Guangzhou, Tianjin, and other centers of trade and commerce along the coast. This was not a recipe for love. These predatory practices, the hallmarks of a broken state, extended to China's working class. In Tianjin, the second most important industrial center in China, the party leaders allied themselves with the secret societies that had influence among workers in the textile mills and transportations. The KMT then forced the unions that represented workers to join a citywide union, which then demanded large contributions from the workers. In response to deficits, the government ran the presses; and strangely, wage freezes did not halt a hyperinflation that rivaled 1923 Germany. Chiang hoped a victorious war against the Communists would solidify his control, and to be honest he was always more at home in the field than running a civilian administration. And so, war.
While all of this went on, the CCP cemented its hold on Manchuria and Northern China. Armed with captured Japanese weaponry and prolific Soviet equipment [2], and with thousands of Soviet military, medical, and industrial experts operating behind Mao's lines, Manchuria painfully but rapidly became a Soviet state. It has even been alleged that Mao's writing changed under influence from Moscow. Gone was a free ranging discourse with reference to Chinese history; instead, Mao's writings adopted the terse, doctrinaire style of the Politburo. And so, war.
The conflict broke out in the hot dry months of July. Chiang's forces initially overwhelmed the Communists, expelling them from their positions on the Grand Canal, overrunning Yan'an, and by the end of the year Chiang's campaign, though bloody, had reached the Korean border by the end of 1945. Chiang offered Stalin recognition of the Soviet Union's "special concerns" about Xinjiang, and agreed to recognize the Democratic Republic of Korea. Stalin, of course, promised neutrality.
The first units of the Red Army entered combat in time for a Lunar New Year's offensive which pushed the Kuomintang back to Beijing; and by March, a painful reality was clear. The KMT, without western backing, would be incapable of defeating Mao and Stalin. Even worse, Stalin seemed to have realized this as well.
At peak strength a year ago we had some 113,000 soldiers, sailors and marines in China. Today this number is being reduced to less than 11,000....-Prime Minister Attlee, "The Winter of Our Discontent"
[1] In some ways, this is worse than OTL; Britain doesn't have the capacity to reconstruct China on its own, and Willkie is happy to make some noise.
[2] Again, this is a marked change from OTL. Stalin didn't really open his armories to Mao until 1947, when the war's outcome was
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Well it seems China will be the OTL Korean War, if the western powers decides to intervene.
There got to be a time when Soviet meddling in external affairs are at an end and with two great anti-communists in London and Berlin, we should see more supplies going to China and the Balkans, though the latter is way to "complicated" to get things going, but China is, must be the bulwark against Soviet aggression.
I would also think, that having fought Japan off, much of China, only to lose the biggest country in the world to the Soviets, will be a hard candy to sell to the public.
Edit: Come to think of it, will China herald the new World War or will denegrade to something like the Spanish Civil War, with the Chinese equivalent of the Condor Legion and the CTV? This could be very intresting to big armament buisness and the military establishment.
There got to be a time when Soviet meddling in external affairs are at an end and with two great anti-communists in London and Berlin, we should see more supplies going to China and the Balkans, though the latter is way to "complicated" to get things going, but China is, must be the bulwark against Soviet aggression.
I would also think, that having fought Japan off, much of China, only to lose the biggest country in the world to the Soviets, will be a hard candy to sell to the public.
Edit: Come to think of it, will China herald the new World War or will denegrade to something like the Spanish Civil War, with the Chinese equivalent of the Condor Legion and the CTV? This could be very intresting to big armament buisness and the military establishment.
"Bonds were never stronger than ours are
Triumphant May is in our midst
This is the marching USSR
This is the mighty USSR
And the New China keeping abreast!"
If the KMT state structure is indeed falling apart, no amount of military aid will alter the outcome of this war.
Triumphant May is in our midst
This is the marching USSR
This is the mighty USSR
And the New China keeping abreast!"
If the KMT state structure is indeed falling apart, no amount of military aid will alter the outcome of this war.
I suppose the problem is "China's broke," and "China is far away," and "we don't have a super bomb."
(Or do we? I need to crunch some numbers). What's the solution?
Overthrow the foreign Powers,
Eliminate the warlords;
The citizens strive hard for the Revolution,
Join the fight!
Laborers, farmers, students, and soldiers,
Make a great union!
Overthrow the imperialism,
Join the fight!
Eliminate the warlords;
The citizens strive hard for the Revolution,
Join the fight!
Laborers, farmers, students, and soldiers,
Make a great union!
Overthrow the imperialism,
Join the fight!
Dont' forget the CCP is having trouble as well, and there are quite a few people who don't like either outcome much. what will happen... Well. We shall see.
Capitalism? Then why do I see state nationalization of transportation and heavy industry?