[Ruminate]

I appreciate your help, but I will point out that "swarm intelligence" is indeed something seen in real life- it specifically refers to the highly efficent emergent problem-solving that comes out of eusocial hives. As a swarm, an ant hive is far more intelligent than any single ant, but that's a property of their individual actions building off of each other in very complex and intricate patterns.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...ds-single-ants-beat-colonies-at-easy-choices/

Ants, just like humans, can achieve something greater by working together, but they can also fail due to mob mentality. So why does no one call a group of humans working together a "swarm intelligence"? Probably a mix of confirmation bias, the human ego, and memes (Bees have a hive and are a part of a swarm.... Humans are not a part of such labels.... Theres a concept called hive mind and swarm intelligence.... BEES HAVE A HIVE MIND AND SWARM INTELLIGENCE OMG).

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...ds-single-ants-beat-colonies-at-easy-choices/

Ants, just like humans, can achieve something greater by working together, but they can also fail due to mob mentality. So why does no one call a group of humans working together a "swarm intelligence"? Probably a mix of confirmation bias, the human ego, and memes (Bees have a hive and are a part of a swarm.... Humans are not a part of such labels.... Theres a concept called hive mind and swarm intelligence.... BEES HAVE A HIVE MIND AND SWARM INTELLIGENCE OMG).

That's a valid observation, and one I've actually brought up- as I said earlier, ants are surprisingly less alien-seeming the closer a look at their "society" and organization you get. I almost made a more elaborate post towards that point, even ("Isn't it fascinating that, despite each primate only having a limited capacity for intelligence, they're able to enact massive coordinated movements through simple short-range verbal communication? Why, they've even organized in so many consecutive layers that they've manufactured complex devices that permit their communication to cross vast distances, using this to mobilize entire industrial and trade networks! Impressive for such tiny, primitive intellects!"). Still doesn't change that the particular pattern of cooperative, interlocking behaviour that creates that behaviour in eusocial organisms is known as "swarm intelligence", though.

The fact that ants have, in some cases, developed complex agriculture despite not being sapient is relatively unique and bears study of the mechanics that allow such. Sure, we filter that research through a somewhat humanocentric lens, but "swarm intelligence" is still a viable way of describing the phenomenon.

 

[DaStormDragon]

As long as there's a civic to build an oversized ship.

 

[tanny]

This is meant to be one of the key differences and primary drawbacks of being a Hive Mind, so it's going to stay, sorry. You can of course mod it away.

Well you can just displace them right?

 

[Atlasien]

You dont even make sense. All i said is that BlackUmbrellas debates semantics, while ignoring the meaning others put into the word. You can't define words because you want to. Words shift their meaning depending on the way they are used by the vast majority, it's basic linguistics.

Actually most scientific and professional spheres have some authorities or expert groups to define terms. Because when the precise meaning of a term matters to their work, relying on "most will read it the right way" is just not feasible.

Besides, what is your aim with conflating hive minds and ants/bees ? To have hive minds in Stellaris that are not capable of abstract thinking and act purely by instinct ?
They would be 1) not playable and 2) pretty boring to play against.



As to developer understanding of the term "hive mind", much can be deduced by how they implemented it:
- a collective personality that emerges from biological beings with a specific kind of psionics (developer description). I believe this was driven by practical needs, to not have to redo writing for various synth and shroud events
- the collective personality is capable of abstract thinking and communication (diplomacy, science). It can also delegate parts of such thinking to individuals (autonomous drones)
- the collective defines preferences/policies for all society (no happiness)*
- collective beings are completely incompatible with non-collective beings within one society (auto purging/dieoff) - though this was admitted to be driven by balance more than concept

* note that this does not preclude drones having their own personalities or likes/dislikes. It means that drones only have choice in those matters that do not rise to the attention of the collective. For militaristic hive minds, and in most sci-fi settings, this is things like battle tactics and personal combat. But for a peaceful hive mind it could just as well be family life or aesthetic details.

 

[OpSihg_Stabr]

This is definitively the greatest new thing to be coming with the Banks and Utopia update/add-on; Or I could be wrong and I'm still high on more custom options for race creation. So many great things about Banks and Utopia, Hope it gets available before Mass Effect: Andromeda.

Anyone else notice that Planet Capitals/Admin Buildings now produce Energy and Unity points? It's seeable in the last screenshot.

The one 'bad' thing I can think of for this, basically overhaul, is that Mods that have custom races are going to have be rewritten; that's going to practically take them out of commision for a likely a significant amount of time. But on the far brighter side of this, Modded Races will need less "tricksy" custom doohickies for getting a recreated Sci-Fi race's government just right.

One thing I still haven't been able to learn about with the Banks update though is will there be a new "Mineral Silos for Energy" building, the eponymous Bank.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

This is meant to be one of the key differences and primary drawbacks of being a Hive Mind, so it's going to stay, sorry. You can of course mod it away.

What if we're RPing as a pacifistic/xenophilic hive mind? Isn't it different and a drawback enough that we can't make use of non-hive mind pops? Functionally, expulsion is the same as eating them, except worse for the hive mind (because you don't get any food, and potentially strengthen rival empires with refugee pops).

 

[lutharien]

Do the civics introduce factions to the empire? I mean, if you have Miner's guilds as a civic, it is natural to expect a Miner's guild faction.

 

[General Retreat]

What if we're RPing as a pacifistic/xenophilic hive mind? Isn't it different and a drawback enough that we can't make use of non-hive mind pops? Functionally, expulsion is the same as eating them, except worse for the hive mind (because you don't get any food, and potentially strengthen rival empires with refugee pops).

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? You're not a particularly pacifist hive if you're annexing planets. I dare say if you don't want to encounter issues with alien pops, don't conqueror their planets. A better option would be to maintain satellite vassals and feed any conquered planets to them.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Personally I don't understand the enthusiasm everyone seems to have here about discussing "irl hiveminds", as they more or less don't exist or at least are not found yet. Ants are practically preprogrammed appendages to the queen whose capacity of initiative is that of a RoboLab bot. Bees are have a somewhat free will and rudimentary language, but a lot of their potential is still being supressed by the queen's pheromones. But the thing is, that none of those are "Hive Minds" as they are not one entity, but rather many entities with strict, biologically-reinforced hierarchy. Fanatic collectivist+conformist, basically. Hivemind? No. (And yes, I'm aware that it fits the stats of current Hive Mind.)

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Anyway, @Wiz , can we know please what Shadow Council does? Or at least if it's something unique or just another +10% minerals?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Ants are practically preprogrammed appendages to the queen whose capacity of initiative is that of a RoboLab bot. Bees are have a somewhat free will and rudimentary language, but a lot of their potential is still being supressed by the queen's pheromones.

Again- that's blatantly false.

But you are right in saying they're not hive minds.

 

[henzington]

This is definitively the greatest new thing to be coming with the Banks and Utopia update/add-on; Or I could be wrong and I'm still high on more custom options for race creation. So many great things about Banks and Utopia, Hope it gets available before Mass Effect: Andromeda.

Anyone else notice that Planet Capitals/Admin Buildings now produce Energy and Unity points? It's seeable in the last screenshot.

The one 'bad' thing I can think of for this, basically overhaul, is that Mods that have custom races are going to have be rewritten; that's going to practically take them out of commision for a likely a significant amount of time. But on the far brighter side of this, Modded Races will need less "tricksy" custom doohickies for getting a recreated Sci-Fi race's government just right.

One thing I still haven't been able to learn about with the Banks update though is will there be a new "Mineral Silos for Energy" building, the eponymous Bank.

For the last couple streams also farms produce more food. I will have to check the frontier clinic but all numbers are not final as Wiz stressed.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Again- that's blatantly false.

But you are right in saying they're not hive minds.

And why is that "blantantly false"?

 

[VoidEmperor]

ohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygod!

I love psionics and machines. But I also love hive minds. So I am very, very conflicted.

GIF NAO! @_@

There are SO MANY things in these screenshots I want to hover over to see the tooltips! This is unbearable AAAAAH!

Princess Stabbity, I LOVE your asari mod, I hope that little vid above this quote gives you a new Idea.

#Edit: When will we finally be worthy of a release date for this wonderful, wonderful Utopia?

 

[Morbid Gerbil]

Helpfully proving my point that "insects are hive minds" is an infective and inaccurate pop-culture meme that shapes how people think about IRL topics...

Actually you sound more like Trump than either myself or others do.

Science is science, you just want to ignore it because it doesn't support 'your' point of view.
A worker ant has NO choice in whether it is a worker or not, it is a decision forced upon it by a single entity with the community within which it lives.
Sure it has plenty of choice in which direction to forage in, but that really is the sum total of it's individuality.
But it does not have the individual freedom to say "I don't want to be a worker anymore, I'm going to be a soldier to change it up a bit"

How does a shared consciousness work ?
Science can only speculate and hypothesise
Because we have NO real world examples of a shared consciousness outside of science & fantasy fiction.

A hive mind is NOT a shared consciousness
it is a collection of individuals working co-operatively towards a common goal
In all real world examples of these social organisms that co-operation is controlled and directed by a single individual
typically through pheromones

but you believe whatever it is you want to believe, why let science stand in the way

 

[Wenla]

Q: Do we get more new music with Utopia?

 

[Princess Stabbity]

ohmygodohmygodohmygodohmygod!

I love psionics and machines. But I also love hive minds. So I am very, very conflicted.

Princess Stabbity, I LOVE your asari mod, I hope that little vid above this quote gives you a new Idea.

#Edit: When will we finally be worthy of a release date for this wonderful, wonderful Utopia?

Awww! Thank you! <3 And oh yes, we have enough ideas to keep us busy forever. Foreeeever! ,_,

But I'm sure VJ will be back from her break soon to update the Mass Effect Theme Pack in the meantime. Utopia will defo bump the Rachni up the priority list n_n

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

And why is that "blantantly false"?

Because it falls into the, well, blatantly false mentality that a queen has control over her hive. Especially with ants, that's just not true. A queen is just one more specialized role within the hive- in many ant species, queens can be imprisoned or killed by her daughters if she misbehaves, and in a pinch the daughters can actually produce eggs on their own.

The idea that workers are "preprogrammed extensions of their queen" just isn't reflected in nature, and the idea that workers in a nest are "being held back from their potential by the queens pheromones" is laughable.

Really, you should do some reading on this stuff- it doesn't have as much public visibility because the sort of research into eusocial insect structure is more recent and drowned out by the pop-culture idea of how an insect hive works, but its fascinating stuff.

Actually you sound more like Trump than either myself or others do.

Science is science, you just want to ignore it because it doesn't support 'your' point of view.

Says the person arguing words can just mean whatever because lots of people think they do, sure.

 

[TwiceAHuman]

Because it falls into the, well, blatantly false mentality that a queen has control over her hive. Especially with ants, that's just not true. A queen is just one more specialized role within the hive- in many ant species, queens can be imprisoned or killed by her daughters if she misbehaves, and in a pinch the daughters can actually produce eggs on their own.

The idea that workers are "preprogrammed extensions of their queen" just isn't reflected in nature, and the idea that workers in a nest are "being held back from their potential by the queens pheromones" is laughable.

Really, you should do some reading on this stuff- it doesn't have as much public visibility because the sort of research into eusocial insect structure is more recent and drowned out by the pop-culture idea of how an insect hive works, but its fascinating stuff.

I see. Well, they are still biologically speciliased to a specific role and don't willingly cooperate, but rather futhfill their preprogrammed role. We can remember the exploding ants, for instance. Whilist I agree that it's been a while since I read anything about ants, it is true that they have the same genome and thus same potential before they get specialised. Reminds me of body cells, really. Besides, it is common for heirs to kill the current hive "leader", we can take bumble bees for instance. But I see what you mean, thank you.