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EU4 - Development Diary - 28th of February 2017

Good day everyone, Tuesday spells for us a new EU4 Development Diary and while certain members are away enjoying the high life at GDC, it falls to me to bring you today's juicy serving of new mechanics.

As teased last week, we shall look closer at the Empire of China, a new concept in the upcoming expansion. In 1444, Ming is busy being the top dog in Asia and indeed the world, but they were not the first to claim Mandate over China and certainly not the last. We are not even one hundred years from the total collapse of the Yuan domination of china and only two hundred years shy of the successor nation Qing.

An important goal for us is to bring new play experiences across the world. Previously as a nation in East Asia, one would generally wait for Ming to crumble to rebellions, usually from loss of the Mandate of Heaven modifier (or a lot of horses and a good shock phase), and then pick up the pieces from this "Mingsplosion" or playing as Ming, simply do everything in your power to avoid falling into aforementioned deadly Spiral. This isn't quite how we would like East Asia to play out. We wish to bring the whole experience to life In the upcoming expansion, as the Empire of China is now a title that is fought for!

eu4_123.png


Where to begin? Our glorious Ming Starts in 1444 with the Celestial throne with a moderate Mandate value. Mandate will grow over time supposing stability is high, States are prosperous and you have an extensive collection of Tributaries. Protect it well, since it will have a large effect on how well your nation will function: Provincial devastation and bordering nations who are not your Tributary or otherwise bending their knee to you will cause Mandate to suffer. At Maximum mandate, The emperor of China will enjoy unrest reduction and cheaper stability cost. Conversely, as Mandate goes down below 50, you will find your troops performing worse and your provinces producing fewer goods, as the people you supposedly rule over with Divine grace back you less and less.

Mandate can be used to pass Celestial Reforms. Not unlike the Holy roman Empire, The Emperor of China must foster the growth of their mandate and spend it to gain some fantastic bonuses. Each Reform can be taken at 80+ Mandate, each will reduce Mandate by 50 and Stability by 1.
  • Introduce Gaituguiliu
    • +0.5 Meritocracy
  • Reform Seaban
    • +1 Diplomats
    • +5% trade Efficiency
  • Delegate Zongdu
    • -0.05 Monthly autonomy
  • Establish Lifan Yuan
    • -10% Core creation Cost
  • Reshape Beurocratic Ranks
    • +1 Monarch Admin Power
Additionally, hawk-eyed readers will have spotted a new Hat in the top bar. Celestial Emperors do not use the Legitimacy values since they are all obviously legit. The Emperor instead has unique access to Meritocracy. This will naturally degrade every year but increases by having skilled advisors in your court. It is then spent on the 6 Decrees, also uniquely available to the Emperor of China.

  • Expand Palace Bureaucracy
    • -10% Development cost
    • -10% core Creation Cost
  • Conduct Population Census
    • +25% National Tax
  • Promote Naval Officers
    • +20% ship durability
  • Increase Tariff Control
    • +25% Provincial trade Power
  • Improve Defense Effort
    • +25% Fort Defense
  • Boost the Officer Corps
    • +10% Infantry Combat Ability
Each Decree lasts for 10 years, costs 20 Meritocracy and, of course, all values are subject to balance up until release, but that's par for the course.

So life is good for the Ming the Celestial Emperor. China is theirs, their tribute flows in regularly and they pass reforms and decrees as they see fit. Well, no single Empire lasts forever.

eu4_126.png


The Celestial throne is there for any Pagan or Eastern Religion nation to secure for themselves. In practice, The Northern Hordes, the Japanese, the Koreans and the Buddhists are all in with a fair shot at securing the title for themselves and have access to a new Casus Belli: Take Mandate of Heaven. Land is cheaper to take in this war. Far cheaper, and it will allow the attacker to secure the Throne for themselves. When this happens, all previous reforms are wiped and the new ruler will start with moderate Mandate themselves. After all, there is only one China and all history from before did not exist. The new Emperor of China will have to quickly establish themselves with their own tributaries and bring Prosperity to the people of China to avoid the fate of their disposed Predecessor. The failed old Emperor of China shall be subjected to the Lost Mandate of Heaven modifier in addition to losing their Empire of China modifiers. Better take care of them, before they collect themselves and put their mind to reclaiming their old throne.

The successful claimant will also enjoy permanent claim on all of China to help consolidate their new power, as our Dai Viet player @Ihki was putting to great effect.

eu4_124.png


Best of luck with your fight to secure the Mandate for yourself. We'll be back next week to talk about another new feature which has our team lamenting any moment that they have to play without it. See you then!
 
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Exactly the opposite, restoring old states and reusing prestigious names was the norm of East Asia. When Liu Bei called proclaimed himself the Emperor, he called his state Han because he was of imperial Han lineage. When Han Lin'er in 1354 proclaimed himself Emperor of Song he did so because he claimed to be a descendant of Song Emperors. Dayan Khan in 1450s, when he was restoring Mongol unity he did exactly the same and called the legacy of Yuan.

Nurhaci called his state Jin because he claimed (falsely) that he was a scion of Wanyan clan. Remember that at first Manchus didn't plan to conquer Ming, they wanted to take some land and coexist like Liao and Jin dynasties did. However, once they realized that conquest is a very viable option, they swiftly changed the name to Qing, which contained the water element (in opposition to Ming fire connotations). The name change meant that Ming is soon to be extinguished by Qing.

Liu Bei used it as a means to gather support, he had not unified China yet.
Same thing with Nurhaci, using an old name to gather support, but once you actually become the Emperor of China, you create your own dynasty.

My take is if a Mongolia Khan becomes Emperor of China, he'd create a new dynasty name, but we can agree to disagree.
 
Absolutely great idea, but i have one question. If i will conquer China as a Qing or Dai Viet or any other nation, while having Mandate of Heaven, will i get that shitty celestial empire government form?
 
Absolutely great idea, but i have one question. If i will conquer China as a Qing or Dai Viet, while having Mandate of Heaven, will i get that shitty celestial empire government form?

Yes, but most of it's current effects have been removed in favour of the new ones.
 
Absolutely great idea, but i have one question. If i will conquer China as a Qing or Dai Viet, while having Mandate of Heaven, will i get that shitty celestial empire government form?
You automatically get Celestial Empire when you claim Mandate, yes.
Also, it no longer has a minimum autonomy floor, so it's not quite as shitty.
Factions won't exist with the new DLC active, but we're still waiting on an answer on estates. I wouldn't get your hopes up for them, though.
 
2. They will remain the existing Emperor. Only annexation or having the position taken from you will boot you off your throne.

So you could potentially make an achievement to be Emperor of China and the HRE at the same time. It'd be an interesting challenge as China to convert and get over to Europe for the HRE.

More challenging versions would be:

1) Require you to be -elected- HRE as China.

2) Require you to start as someone other than Ming.

Just saying... :)
 
So you could potentially make an achievement to be Emperor of China and the HRE at the same time. It'd be an interesting challenge as China to convert and get over to Europe for the HRE.

More challenging versions would be:

1) Require you to be -elected- HRE as China.

2) Require you to start as someone other than Ming.

Just saying... :)

devs stated you can't be both at the same time :(
 
Liu Bei used it as a means to gather support, he had not unified China yet.
Same thing with Nurhaci, using an old name to gather support, but once you actually become the Emperor of China, you create your own dynasty.

My take is if a Mongolia Khan becomes Emperor of China, he'd create a new dynasty name, but we can agree to disagree.
When Hong Taiji was proclaimed Emperor of Qing Manchus were still far from uniting China, so this point is moot. When Han was restored after Xin interlude the name wasn't changed, so why do you think Liu Bei would declare a new dynasty? Afterall he was the member of that dynasty himself.

Also Mongols were all ruled by descendants of Ginghis or his brothers. The same lineage wouldn't want to drop the claim to the old state. Aisin Gioro could because they were unrelated to Wanyan clan.
 
Should it? I would rather think he as huangdi would still be a subject to the tenno.

Well, there are theories that Ashikaga Yoshimitsu actually made plans to replace the tennô (with himself) - and that he got assassinated for that very reason. So the Japanese emperor being an unmovable constant is very much arguable.
 
You need to look at this in context. Number of states in China has increased and your state limit has decreased, meaning a lot of provinces will be at 75% autonomy, especially if you expand a lot.



Reforming an old dynasty is not really a thing in East Asia, IE, the Manchus were known as Later Jin, but upon becoming emperor of China they declared the Qing dynasty.

I'm not authority on Asian History, but didn't the mongols carry the Yuan name well into 16th Century? It's not too far fetched that if they somehow managed to recover China they would have carried on?
 
Well, there are theories that Ashikaga Yoshimitsu actually made plans to replace the tennô (with himself) - and that he got assassinated for that very reason. So the Japanese emperor being an unmovable constant is very much arguable.
Oh I could easily see a shogun who conquers china to become tenno, but I think he would chose to be tenno at the end of the day no huangdi. But I also don't see it as impossible that even the most prestigious title may become the subject of a much less powerful title.

Of course it's possible that the shogun may become haungdi and make the tenno his vassal that way he wont have to break the rule that the tenno is always from the imperial dynasty but himself gets out of being the subject of the tenno.
 
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Considering that by the time of the Taiping Rebellion, Europeans still had a hard time of wrapping their heads around the idea of the Mandate of Heaven, I have my doubts as to whether they would proclaim themselves as Emperor of China and adopt the Confucian bureaucratic model.
Would they need to? They have the Mandate of Heaven, they could do whatever they wanted then.

I mean, I am not refuting the ridiculousness of the situation, and am not expecting Christians to be able to claim the mandate since the devs made their choice. I just thought it would be fun. I just wonder, what European, during the time when Europeans actually viewed themselves as inferior to the Chinese empire, would let up the opportunity to claim the same prestige and honor associated with "Emperor of China" if a European was confident in its military strength to claim it. "Emperor of China" carries some weight in its name, regardless of how foreign and un-Christian it is (it also provides the PERFECT opportunity for Catholics to proselytize into China).

Besides, Christians being unable to claim the mandate means Christian Asians cannot claim it either. If Shinto Japan can claim the Mandate, then so should Catholic Japan. If Ming become Catholic, and break up into warlord states who are ALSO Catholic, then the warlords cannot claim a title that they absolutely should claim. Though at this point I would agree on the notion of making "Claim Mandate" restricted to any NATIVE East Asian or Central Asian culture (since it makes less sense for the Sioux to claim the mandate than it does for Britain to claim it).

Allowing Europeans to claim the mandate would also encourage colonizing Europeans to be directly involved in East Asian politics, since global empires SHOULD be concerned with GLOBAL politics, not just European politics.
 
If Shinto Japan can claim the Mandate, then so should Catholic Japan.
I totallly agree, speakign of christian japan I wonder if they have fixed the flip to catholic event so it no longer happens to already christian provinces (I tried to go reformed as japan, and had my provinces constantly flipping back to catholic).
 
When Hong Taiji was proclaimed Emperor of Qing Manchus were still far from uniting China, so this point is moot. When Han was restored after Xin interlude the name wasn't changed, so why do you think Liu Bei would declare a new dynasty? Afterall he was the member of that dynasty himself.

Also Mongols were all ruled by descendants of Ginghis or his brothers. The same lineage wouldn't want to drop the claim to the old state. Aisin Gioro could because they were unrelated to Wanyan clan.

In my opinion using an old name is only to gather support when it's practical, being the founder of a new dynasty is viewed as prestigious.

Han dynasty still had great support after the Xin interlude, not so much during the three kingdoms era. I agree if you look at the early three kingdom era there is a good chance Liubei would keep Han.

Jin did not hold any influence over the rest of China, so carrying the name later Jin does not help Huang Taiji.

By 1444 Yuan's old claim means very little, if anything at all, they'd be better off trying to claim China through meritocracy, like purging corruption of Ming.