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CK2 Dev Diary #53: Time to pay Tribute

Greetings!

Today I’d like to talk to you about a part of the game that we’ve chosen to overhaul and improve - the Tributary system! Introduced in Horse Lords, the ‘Make Tributary’ CB allowed you to go to war with a neighboring realm to make them pay you 40% of their income until the death of your current character. It was quite a simple system that didn’t always fit the intended purpose very well, so we decided to make it more advanced and capable of diverse use!

Tributaries can now come in a lot of flavors, as they are entirely definable in a new ‘tributary_types’ file. You define a name and then you set the parameters for how you would like the Tributary to work. You are able to customize a lot of things, for example; the various tribute percentages, if the Tributary should be set free on death or if the Suzerain must defend the Tributary in wars.

With this new system we have lots of ideas on where we could add new types of Tributaries, i.e. Permanent Tributaries or Nomad Tributaries. If you have any ideas for a type of Tributary (and when it would make sense to have it/when to gain access to the CB) feel free to post a suggestion in this thread!

To demonstrate, here’s the script for an example Tributary type:

Code:
example = {                                # name used for that type of tributary. "default" is the standard type, replacing the old tributaries, and "none" is reserved and should not be used
    tributary_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for tributaries of that type (ie "Tributary" for the default type, "Permanent Tributary" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tributary_plural = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_PLURAL    # localization string used for tributaries of that type, when there is more than one (ie "Tributaries" for the default type, "Permanent Tributaries" for the Permanent type, etc)
    suzerain_name = SUZERAIN_DEFAULT_NAME        # localization string used for suzerains of that tributary type (ie "Suzerain" for the default type, "Permanent Suzerain" for the Permanent type, etc)
    tribute_name = TRIBUTARY_DEFAULT_TRIBUTE    # localization string used for "paying $TRIBUTE$" for that tributary type
    breaks_at_suzerain_death = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the suzerain dies.
    breaks_at_tributary_death = no         # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary dies
    suzerain_must_defend = no             # yes/no value determining if the suzerain is forced to accept calls to arms from tributary in defensive wars (wars were the tributary is the defender)
                                        # if they decline anyway, they will lose the tributary and an amount of prestige defined in defines.lua, called SUZERAIN_DEFENDER_CALL_DECLINE_COST
    tributary_can_be_summoned = yes     # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can calls the tributaries to war (as tribal vassals / allies)   
    tributary_must_defend = yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributaries are forced to accept defensive calls to arms
    tributaries_can_infight = yes        # yes/no value determining if the tributaries can fight against each others, if both tributaries are of the same type
                                        # if tributaries are of different types, they will always be allowed to fight each other, even if they have the same suzerain
    suzerain_can_join_infighting = yes    # yes/no value determining if the suzerain can join a tributary in a war against another
    tributaries_can_unite = no             # yes/no value determining if, when trying to break, the tributaries can band together against the suzerain, à la major revolt
    breaks_on_realm_change=yes            # yes/no value determining if the tributary relationship is dissolved when the tributary's titles change realms
    cbs_against_suzerain = {            # list of CBs tributaries can use against their suzerain
        free_tributary_cb
    }
    income_tribute_percentage = {        # how much of their monthly income the tributary must pay to their suzerain.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    reinforce_tribute_percentage = {    # How much of the tributary's reinforcement rate will go to the suzerain's instead.
                                        # THIS IS ONLY EVALUATED WHEN THE TRIBUTARY RELATIONSHIP IS FORMED
                                        # and is not reevaluated afterwards
                                        # this value is an MTTH and should compute a value between 0 and 1, inclusive
                                        # in case the total is less than 0, it will be counted as 0
                                        # in case the total is more than 1, it will be counted as 1
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain

                                        # this is applied by subtracting the percentage, as is, from the tributary's reinforcement rate
                                        # and adding a scaled (based on demesne size= version of the percentage to the suzerain
                                        # So, for example, the tributary loses 10% of reinforcement rate, but the suzerain gains 10% * (tributary's demesne size) / (suzerain's demesne size)
        value = 0.10
        additive_modifier = {
            value = 0.05
            FROM = {
                is_merchant_republic = yes
            }
        }
    }
    prestige_to_suzerain = {            # how much of prestige the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's prestige every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    prestige_to_tributary = {            # how much prestige the tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's prestige every month.
                                        # to make them lose prestige, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_suzerain = {                # how much of piety the suzerain gains every month per tributary (of that type) he holds
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the suzerain's piety every month.
                                        # current scope is the suzerain, FROM is the tributary
        value = 0
    }
    piety_to_tributary = {                # how much of piety a tributary gains every month
                                        # this value is an MTTH and the raw value will be added to the tributary's piety every month.
                                        # to make them lose piety, return a negative value
                                        # current scope is the tributary, FROM is the suzerain
        value = 0
    }
}

I’d also like to expand upon something we touched upon in the last DD; the new ‘unjust conquest’ CB (now renamed to Border Dispute). When declaring a Border Dispute over a County you first and foremost have to pay an upfront cost of Piety and Gold scaled to your tier (in the case of Pagans, prestige is used), but you also take an opinion hit from both your religious head (if you have one) as well as any landed characters of the targeted religious group in both your realm and the one you’re attacking. Note that these opinion modifiers stack! This makes the border Dispute CB dangerous to use on characters of your own religion, especially if you have a religious head capable of excommunicating you. You will primarily want to use this CB to expand early on when drawing the ire of your co-religionists is worth the risk, or against characters not of your religion.

Border_dispute_tooltip.png

Example is of an Irish Count wanting to conquer another Irish Count.


Note that Muslims, Nomads and in certain cases Pagans do not have access to this CB, as their current CB’s are already superior. It is also possible to turn the CB off entirely by using Game Rules.
Border_dispute_GR.png


Note that we’ve also decided to leave Fabricate Claim as it is right now.
 
I know it's out of period but this could be used to create something like the Delian League in ancient Greece - local major power forms defensive pact against even stronger external enemy and all it asks in return is money to help defray its costs in organising and running the League. Over time "contributions" become expected, then mandatory, until the defensive pact becomes a tributary arrangement.

The possibilities here are endless !
There are plenty of such examples in game though the kingdom of saxony that charlamagne fought was like that. The kingdom of frisia that his grandfather fought to. Other kingdoms that aren't kingdoms in the game were like that, England (prior to being united in game), Ireland, Sweden (though smaller than the later properly united kingdom of sweden). You also have scotland which pretty much is this throughout the period but which is represented as a kingdom anyway in game.
 
Everyone is talking about China. Is anything like that even mentioned by the developers?
Tibet was added, but none of the devs mentioned China, except for that something would be heard in the future about it. At least in the dev diary of Tibet you could see that China wasn't made at that point, because the map border could be seen, but a lot can change in two weeks.
 
Tibet was added, but none of the devs mentioned China, except for that something would be heard in the future about it. At least in the dev diary of Tibet you could see that China wasn't made at that point, because the map border could be seen, but a lot can change in two weeks.

Some people have noted that the images from the Tibet DD are cropped so you can't see the government tabs or the minimap. That might mean something. Personally that seems like a stretch but who knows.
 
Some people have noted that the images from the Tibet DD are cropped so you can't see the government tabs or the minimap. That might mean something. Personally that seems like a stretch but who knows.
The images have been cropped since at least Reaper's Due's dev diaries, but you can see the border of the map and the way Burma's name is set, at least at that point, nothing was there.
 
The images have been cropped since at least Reaper's Due's dev diaries, but you can see the border of the map and the way Burma's name is set, at least at that point, nothing was there.
Yeah but the devs made a peculiar response when asked how they were going to deal with the fact that tibet was under chinese rule for parts of the timeframe.
 
I'd love it if the Claim Fabrication process was a bit more involved. Maybe a semi-random event chain that fires when you start the job that has your chancellor going back through your court and the title's history to justify the claim, with the final cost of the claim based on how recently the claim can be fabricated from.


The fastest method would be to have a current claimant in your court 'grant' you their claim. They would only do it if they had high enough relations with you, and it would cost you a decent amount of gold (and possibly a relationship malus with the original claimant), but they would lose their claim and grant you a weak claim on the province/title. A potential counter-event could be fired at that point if the current holder of the title disputes the claim transfer, with you having to back your acquisition of the claim by paying gold and prestige/piety to support your claim or lose it.


The next fastest method would be to have had a member of your family have held the title at some point in the past. From this they would justify your claim as being 'inherited' from that one, and it would cost you an amount of gold based on the level of the claim and how far back the claim is stretching. It could also come with an event on your ruler death for your heir to try and maintain the claim rather than it expiring, costing gold and prestige to retain the claim through ruler death. This could potentially lead to some interesting situations for dynastic revival, if your distant ancestor was a great ruler and you get a claim on the right title.


Then the third method would be effectively manufacturing the claim from nothing, and would be your chancellor creating a story of how a random previous holder of the claim met with you/your ancestor and bequeathed the claim to you, only for it to be unjustly taken from your rightful hands blah de blah. This would cost an amount of gold for the initial work, then would have a series of events that you can use to increase the strength of the claim before you 'present' it to the world. Things like spreading the story amongst the peasants and merchants, arranging for corroborating records to 'turn up', and even persuading friendly rulers (or opponents of the current title holder) to support your claim. Each of these would cost gold, prestige, or piety depending on the event.

After each of these events, you would have the option to either 'present the claim', or 'seek more support'. Seeking more support would trigger another one of the support events after a random delay. Presenting the claim would have you coming forward to the world with your claim, and an event firing to see how it is taken. If you have enough support, you will be granted an inheritable strong claim. If you have less support, you will be granted either a non-inheritable strong claim (like it is now), a non-inheritable weak claim, or be laughed out of court depending on the amount of support you have put together.

To prevent this from being too abuseable by stronger realms, the higher-tier your title is, the stronger these claims should need to be in order to have them be successful. After all, if some no-name count from Ireland says his great-grandfather was bequeathed this castle by it's old owner, people are going to give that a lot less scrutiny than the last Byzantine Emperor apparently being best friends with this random baron from Milan thirty years ago and said baron choosing the emperor over his son to inherit the castle.

This would also serve as a reason to actually decline a claim when offered it other than not having a pile of gold on hand. The 'base strength' of the claim, before you seek more support, would be based on how recent the bequeathment of the claim was (with the possible caveat that too recent claims could be disputed by the current holder, resulting in your claim being weakened by event). So if your chancellor approached you offering to claim that your nine-generations-removed grandfather was given the claim two centuries ago, you would probably be best refusing the claim in favour of an attempt that wouldn't cost thousands of gold to make into a usable claim.


So rather than the claim fabrication being 'send off chancellor to go get drunk, random length of time later he gets you to pay his tab and in return forges a totally legit claim for you', it would actually require either a legitimate link to the claim, or actual work to fabricate it and back up that fabrication. I'm not sure if something like this has been suggested before, and given that this is a forum it probably has been at least a dozen times, but this is my personal take on the idea. Hey, maybe it will actually inspire someone.
 
Yeah but the devs made a peculiar response when asked how they were going to deal with the fact that tibet was under chinese rule for parts of the timeframe.
They said "wait and see" with a smiley, which tells me that they definitely plan to address China but probably not in the way many people would assume (i.e., a map extension). Since the most important role for China in the CK2 timeline is going to be as a subject of the Mongol Yuan I would look there for ideas.
 
You could also take it to imagine that the Lake Chad region (the only other major wasteland on the current map that shouldn't be a wasteland) could be filled in.
More africa? Where do I sign?

Also extending the map a bit further south would be nice, so we could get all of west africa, as long as they cut of the westernmost part of what's today mauretania they don't have to worry about people sailing past there and they should be fine.

A place that however should be a wasteland that isn't is the big desert between syria and iraq. preferably broken up in two, one smaller north of palmyra and one much bigger south of palmyra, with a navigable corridor where the silkroad crosses the desert at palmyra. maybe a smaller one separating tigris and eufrat closer to their sources too.
 
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A place that however should be a wasteland that isn't is the big desert between syria and iraq. preferably broken up in two, one smaller north of palmyra and one much bigger south of palmyra, with a navigable corridor where the silkroad crosses the desert at palmyra. maybe a smaller one separating tigris and eufrat closer to their sources too.
I would say it is great as it is right now. There is huge attrition over there and long travel time. You can technically march through the region but it is better to avoid it any time you can.
 
I would say it is great as it is right now. There is huge attrition over there and long travel time. You can technically march through the region but it is better to avoid it any time you can.
Not nearly enough. Also the AI is stupid about attrition.
 
well you also have it Espionage. Move it to the Menu as a plot. If it successful . It auto starts a war and is a Justified war . if failed The Pope is very mad at you. May even excommunicate you.

That takes away from its versatility in that you can wait until you are ready to declare war with the fabricated claim. Or even attempt to fabricate multiple claims to wait that extra time, to take that chance to stack them.

Adding a feature is compelling I see no reason why the feature should instead replace claim fabrication entirely.
 
The thing about Suzerains joining infighting is interesting -- it reads as tributary-on-trubutary fighting. But what about suzerains joining civil wars or rebellions? Helping with internal fights? That might be something we set in defines.

Also a type of tributary state we might consider is when you press somebody's claim and put them on a throne. They're essentially a client realm at that point. That's one of the tributary relationships where interfering in internal wars make sense -- you're essentially propping them on their throne.

Edit: apologies if any of these suggestions were already made, I didn't have a chance to read the thread.
 
Two weeks ago we got a DD on the improvement of regions currently part of China...
Today we get a DD on tributary states, something China is famous for...

Ahem.

Theocracies confirmed. :p
 
Also a type of tributary state we might consider is when you press somebody's claim and put them on a throne. They're essentially a client realm at that point. That's one of the tributary relationships where interfering in internal wars make sense -- you're essentially propping them on their throne
That's a good idea: a puppet. He won't pay tribute or deliver men though the puppeteer will get a prestige bonus and the puppet a prestige malus depending on the rank and while the puppeteer is obliged to nothing the puppet must always join their overvlords war - it's just annoying that forced offensive joining is impossible. I'm inclined to say that the relationship won't end on any inheritance, but will end if the puppet is dethroned in any way.

Puppets would be formed in any of the following ways:
1. A character is installed by his future overlord;
2. A Rebel leader who fights for the throne asks a lord for help - lord joins the war and helps said leader to the throne (if the claimant isn't the rebel leader he must approve of this)

Puppet relationships are ended in the following ways:
1. Puppet is dethroned (through elective succ/factions/rebellion)
2. Puppet is ambitious (AI only) and (brave or overlord in civil war or overlord has smaller levy) and overlord has no hostages; decides he'll henceforth fare his own course = hefty relation penalty with former overlord (no war or cb, overlord can restore puppet by installing another claimant)
 
So, there is this discussion about turning tributaries into proper vassals and it was mentioned earlier that there might be a "destroy empire" CB. So, my idea is that it may be tied with answering calls to arms. And so if a tributary refuses a call to arms few times, its overlord would get a "destroy top title" CB. And if the overlord answers the tributary's call to arms enough times, he could get a diplomatic option to ask to vassalize the tributary.