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In terms of opponent this was not an unreasonable conclusion, from long before the Great War the Italians had seen France as one of it's main rivals and, with the dissolution of Austria-Hungary removing the other local contender, it had been natural for Rome to focus primarily on France.

Commas are brilliant but this is ever so slightly taking it too far.

The naval treaties has reinforced this belief,

Last one. Promise.

favouring a strong battleline while relying on the unsinkable carrier of Italy for aviation support; better to do one thing properly than many things badly was part of the reasoning.

Mm, but if they were fighting France and the Balkans, the enemy also has unsinkable carriers and they surround the country already...

not least a distrust, bordering on hatred, of radar and other electronic devices.

Because?

and crucially assuming similarly trained and experienced officers and crews, they were more than a match for a Royal Navy County-class.

Big assumption.

The approach of seeking out a large battle also met with political approval, during the Great War the Italian navy had done very little and participated in no major sea battles with the Austro-Hungarian fleet, limiting herself to sabotage and human torpedo attacks.

Yeah but that was fairly useful, since neither country had much of a fleet but pride in what they had anyway. Sinking their stuff by any means was better than losing ships in battle.

"Mediterranean Jutland"

Seriously? Idiots...

The problem with such a plan was that while the tactical outcome of Jutland could be debated, strategically it has been a clear victory for the Royal Navy

Plus it didn't really do much for either side, arguably. Why a navy would plan a Jutland situation as the basis of their entire strategy when it was such a nonresult even with massive fleets involved...sheesh.

A straight up conflict between the Royal Navy and the Regia Marina had been planned for, but most of the staff officers assigned had seen it more as make-work than preparation for a realistic proposition.

It does sound rather unlikely, doesn't it? Then again, many British naval wars seem to come out of nowhere at the time.

Essentially the Admiralty didn't anticipate it would be fighting complete fools, so the expectation was that any opponent would avoid a Mahanian decisive battle unless the odds were in the enemies favour.

Well, Gilbert and Sullivan would disagree.

British Tanker Company, the shipping arm of the vast Anglo-Iranian Oil Company

Megabucks R Us.

the Admiralty had also deployed the Battlecruiser Squadron to Gibraltar; Hood, Renown and Repulse.

Unofficially the 'look pretty and do as little as possible' squadron.
 
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Well, France doesn't really have a choice anyway. They have to focus on Germany. And of the other powers that could take on Russia and might want to, Germany is also focused on France and her allaince, and the British can't realy do anything on their own without one or both of those countries as well.

You are absolutely right. After two Franco-German wars in three generations, and with the lingering certitude a third conflict is coming, Germany is and will continue to be the focus for the Quai d'Orsay (seat of the French Foreign Ministry) and the Rue Saint Dominique (address of France's then War Ministry). Any change there would take a true geopolitical revolution, like the Reich's earnestly seeking an alliance against the Soviets (and the Soviets out-appalling even Nazi Germany), or France turning a hundred percent Nazi and seeking a Pact of Steel, part deux.
 
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I'm not sure why he would want to go to war. Maybe in the east, because those Japs need to be removed eventually and China looks tasty but Europe? Hitler doesn't have the resources and no one else wants to fight Russia so it's difficult to see a war happening for a couple decades unless of course, ww2 happens and drags them into it.

The simple fact that is Russian Geopolitics more than anything. The historical need to get a borders as far away from Moscow as possible. This geographic blip known as Poland needing to be adjusted. And Communist ideologies, even more peaceful ones such as Stalinism, still tend to wish to expand the revolution with puppet states, and is something even Stalin, or his successors will desire as well.
 
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The simple fact that is Russian Geopolitics more than anything. The historical need to get a borders as far away from Moscow as possible. This geographic blip known as Poland needing to be adjusted. And Communist ideologies, even more peaceful ones such as Stalinism, still tend to wish to expand the revolution with puppet states, and is something even Stalin, or his successors will desire as well.

This is what I assume they'd want in an ideal world: a centralised and industrial russia surrounded by puppet meat shields. And so to do that, they should probably stay peaceful and industrialised first and get their pseudo empire later...but of course, if the oppurtunity arises for easy gains in asia or europe, they'll probably take them as in OTL. I just think they'd be best served being careful. In time they'll become a super power with what they have now. Germany doesn't have that luxury. They need to take an awful lot very quickly and cheaply to get to that level.
 
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If I had finished reading this before piecing together my original AAR, that might have been handled significantly differently. As it is, my play since catching up on all of these other AARs--especially @El Pip 's comments on my own AAR--has significantly changed.

I also realize how crazy overpowered Italy is in the base game, and how easy it is to wind up gaming the system.
 
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I also realize how crazy overpowered Italy is in the base game, and how easy it is to wind up gaming the system.

'Mussolini takes Berlin' is probably going to be a default part of mt italian strategy every time I play them now.
 
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Low Quality is a bit harsh, I've been to some incredible greasy spoons. And some bloody awful ones I'll admit. But after a night of tunnel inspections I will take a greasy spoon over almost any type of other restaurant .

In my defense "Low quality" is the meaning that the no-good city slicker intended to get across. I certainly disagree with his opinion (and it would seem you do as well). But I felt that it was important to get the intended meaning across for clarity's sake.
 
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I've been putting some thought into how the next France-German war is going to fall out. We know that it almost certainly will occur. But aside from that the Butterflies wings have covered everything in the fog of war. I've been unable to come to any satisfactory conclusion on what exactly is going to happen so I thought I'd get everyone else's opinions on the subject. Specifically:

1: What are the likely triggers for the war, and when will they occur? There certainly isn't going to be any Munich Conference type situation. But will Hitler push for war over the Sudetenland or bide his time 'till... when? '39? '40? Later? What's the smart move in this situation? And what's the likely move in this situation? Given that this is Hitler's Reich and the tail end of the 3rd Republic "optimal" and "probable" are likely not the same.

2. What are the likely moves by either side once a war occurs. (Eastern Europe has jumped up in importance for France but are they really going to abandon Maginot and push forward to support their allies? I think not. And I have heard almost nothing about what the Germans are thinking about defeating France) Again I'm looking for opinions on what would be the "best" moves with our forbidden future knowledge. And what moves the belligerents on the ground with their incomplete data and psychological quirks are likely to make.

3. What are the likely results of the above? If Germany can't manage to defeat France immediately, how long can they hold? Can the Germans replicate their OTL success by pushing through the Ardennes? If not, what hope have they of emerging victorious? Will the Eastern Entente have a chance to hold the line? Or, perhaps more likely, will they be able to resist to the point that the Germans don't have the resources in the west to finish the job?

4. What are the repercussions on the world stage? Britain isn't going to jump in automatically, but will they stand idly by the entire time? Particularly if things start going poorly for the Entente? Will the Soviets quietly build up and hope the war doesn't cross their borders? Or will they take the opportunity to seize some Polish territory? Or a third option? (And as above, I'm interested in hearing what you think is the optimal, and probable scenarios for the various participants).

Your thoughts everyone?
 
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1: What are the likely triggers for the war, and when will they occur? There certainly isn't going to be any Munich Conference type situation. But will Hitler push for war over the Sudetenland or bide his time 'till... when? '39? '40? Later? What's the smart move in this situation? And what's the likely move in this situation? Given that this is Hitler's Reich and the tail end of the 3rd Republic "optimal" and "probable" are likely not the same.

'Smart' as you say, is relative. The smartest thing Germany could have done with the full benefit of hindsight is difficult to decide so at the time, with less information to go on, I doubt we could get something optimal. However...okay, so Germany at this time is resource starved. Surrounded by enemies. And explicitly under threat of Soviet attack at some point in the future, probably in a decade or so at the soonest, but possibly much later.

What do they need? Well, they need to eventually defeat the Soviet Union before it is ready to attack them, which basically means the rampant militarisation that is straining Germany's recovering economy and limited resources needs to increase, not diminish. So to fight Russia, they need more resources, industry, people, everything really. Some of this they get through Axis members and some, the majority in fact, is going to have to come through conquest. Since the goal is infrastructure and resources, these wars need to be quick and relatively damage free. That means either weak targets or striking quickly and unexpectedly on strong targets all at once.

As I see it, the Germans have only one real option, which is to try to strengthen the axis as much as possible in the Balkans and then take out czechslovakia and Yugoslavia at the same time, then swing round and take out France and whatever other western countries it feels like taking (none of them can stand up to Germany without the French army).

I say they have only one option because any other idea will lead to this campaign as well, just with the enemy prepared/at least given time to prepare.and Germany's own troops potentially out of place. The only other real option is to go after Poland first, but this requires a) the French and British to do nothing and b) a fairly solid agreement with the soviets unless you want to go to war with them immediately after annexing poland. However if they could get Poland in an otl move then do the French campaign, that might be better. I'm unsure.

2. What are the likely moves by either side once a war occurs. (Eastern Europe has jumped up in importance for France but are they really going to abandon Maginot and push forward to support their allies? I think not. And I have heard almost nothing about what the Germans are thinking about defeating France) Again I'm looking for opinions on what would be the "best" moves with our forbidden future knowledge. And what moves the belligerents on the ground with their incomplete data and psychological quirks are likely to make.

With our forbidden knowledge we know that any war plan Germany needs to defeat France with is going to be unbelievable in its risk, daring and gambling on French and their allies making many wrong decisions one after the other. The way they took France in OTL...probably won't happen in this AAR. Unless they are incredibly lucky or they seriously take over most of French intelligence and create some false orders or something. Likewise, France should, with our future knowledge, probably just it behind it's amazing defences, otoect Belgium and its own borders and just watch the Axis starve themselves to death. Damn the Czechs and perhaps support the Yugoslavia s a little, if Greece can be convinced to enter or Italy really bungles the invasion.

3. What are the likely results of the above? If Germany can't manage to defeat France immediately, how long can they hold? Can the Germans replicate their OTL success by pushing through the Ardennes? If not, what hope have they of emerging victorious? Will the Eastern Entente have a chance to hold the line? Or, perhaps more likely, will they be able to resist to the point that the Germans don't have the resources in the west to finish the job?

If Germany can't defeat France quickly, they're doomed. There is nothing stopping Russia from declaring war and swamping them with troops, Germany doesn't have the fuel or food to sustain a long ground war in Europe against the Empires and though they might see success elsewhere, the Balkans and Eastern Europe for a time, they won't win the war. In fact, if this situation arises, I would imagine a coup attempt at least from the army to try and get Hitler ousted.

4. What are the repercussions on the world stage? Britain isn't going to jump in automatically, but will they stand idly by the entire time? Particularly if things start going poorly for the Entente? Will the Soviets quietly build up and hope the war doesn't cross their borders? Or will they take the opportunity to seize some Polish territory? Or a third option? (And as above, I'm interested in hearing what you think is the optimal, and probable scenarios for the various participants).

It's hard to say, because it depends on how well the French do..,and what the Russians do. If Germany takes Poland and seemingly with Russian aid, before declaring war on most of Europe and steamrolls I think flat, I imagine GB will do something. If Germany bungles the invasion of France and a stalemate occurs, there is littlest reason to get involved, aside from maybe dissuading Russia from getting involved.


Idk, from how I see and understand things, eventually Germany and France will go toe to toe in a game of luck and skill that will either see Germany win very quickly or slowly lose over the course of a few years.
 
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I've been putting some thought into how the next France-German war is going to fall out. We know that it almost certainly will occur. But aside from that the Butterflies wings have covered everything in the fog of war. I've been unable to come to any satisfactory conclusion on what exactly is going to happen so I thought I'd get everyone else's opinions on the subject. Specifically:

1: What are the likely triggers for the war, and when will they occur? There certainly isn't going to be any Munich Conference type situation. But will Hitler push for war over the Sudetenland or bide his time 'till... when? '39? '40? Later? What's the smart move in this situation? And what's the likely move in this situation? Given that this is Hitler's Reich and the tail end of the 3rd Republic "optimal" and "probable" are likely not the same.

Here are my two cents.

Historically, Hitler thought time favoured the French and British, which could use it to rearm at a more leisurely pace when he had already pushed Germany on the brink of bankrupcy and would not be able to maintain his current military advantage. So I'm not certain biding his time truly is an option. Paradoxically, the only option he could have to bide his time would be to submit another country to pillage (and in Eastern Europe I think that only means Czecholovakia and/or Poland).

2. What are the likely moves by either side once a war occurs. (Eastern Europe has jumped up in importance for France but are they really going to abandon Maginot and push forward to support their allies? I think not. And I have heard almost nothing about what the Germans are thinking about defeating France) Again I'm looking for opinions on what would be the "best" moves with our forbidden future knowledge. And what moves the belligerents on the ground with their incomplete data and psychological quirks are likely to make.

It's almost impossible for the French army to support its Eastern European allies, as European geography all but forbids it. France IMHO has only two choices : a border offensive into Germany, or a defensive border strategy aimed at defeating German forces. Geopolitically speaking, its Little Entente scheme was more of a deterrence strategy than anything else. On this respect Germany has more offensive options : either attacking on the East while remaining on the defensive on the West, or doing the reverse to knock France out of the war before a great western alliance can be formed. I think England has no other option than to side with France, as a French defeat would be the end of the European balance of forces (while a French victory would not - there's no way France can replace Germany as the dominant power/threat in the long run). I'd be more interested by the USSR's moves. Should Germany be on the brink of collapse, maybe Stalin could quote Lenin and decide the road of the World Bolshevist revolution goes through Germany's cadaver? Or he could wait until both sides are exhausted and declare 194X is the year of the Global Struggle of the Proletariat.



3. What are the likely results of the above? If Germany can't manage to defeat France immediately, how long can they hold? Can the Germans replicate their OTL success by pushing through the Ardennes? If not, what hope have they of emerging victorious? Will the Eastern Entente have a chance to hold the line? Or, perhaps more likely, will they be able to resist to the point that the Germans don't have the resources in the west to finish the job?

I think either Germany wins in a matter of months, or it is defeated in a matter of years (1 or 2 depending on its initial success). It can rack up victory after victory in the East (given it practically controls any access to the theater of operations), but it either soundly defeats France or it's WW1 once again.

4. What are the repercussions on the world stage? Britain isn't going to jump in automatically, but will they stand idly by the entire time? Particularly if things start going poorly for the Entente? Will the Soviets quietly build up and hope the war doesn't cross their borders? Or will they take the opportunity to seize some Polish territory? Or a third option? (And as above, I'm interested in hearing what you think is the optimal, and probable scenarios for the various participants).

You thoughts everyone?

Enormous repercussions if France is/risks being defeated for the reasons listed above. That would mean an unchecked Germany which would once again would be a world rival for either the UK, US or USSR. Our 1945 world would not have existed if, in 1940, the Western allies had managed to hold the line like they did in 1914.

I'd probably see the USSR negotiating support to both sides (usually the weaker one) until it could go Operation Icebreaker on the whole lot of them. But what would the US do? If France is still fighting, probably no more than supplying support at very favourable terms - unless Germany blunders into threatening something dear to the American public. The more the US intervenes, the more the USSR would probably weigh its options more cautiously, methinks. And what about Japan? Does it go full Antikomintern Pact, or does it negotiate lightened US sanctions for a "friendly neutrality" in the Pacific? In our TL the Axis went full hawkish (or full retard), but maybe a different Japanese government (and military command) would decide to be more ambiguous. Who knows what France, Britain and the US would accept in China in exchange for a peaceful Pacific?
 
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Excellent responses, AF!
 
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Gimme two pints of ice-cold strong ale and I'm a one-man National Security Council. ;)

Since we seem to be thinking along the same lines, I don't see a problem with that. Until of course the NSC gets nukes at which point no more drugs in the command centre.
 
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Since we seem to be thinking along the same lines, I don't see a problem with that. Until of course the NSC gets nukes at which point no more drugs in the command centre.

If said drug is the aforementioned two pints of beer, I daresay world peace should be safe, as I see the right amount of booze as helping you see things in perspective, beyond incendiary rhetoric and so-called "hard facts".
 
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To borrow from a Fleetwood Mac song:

El Pip, you make airplane engines fun. :cool:

I have gone back over to see what happened to a few old readers who's comments I've noticed the lack of.

I am a "pops up every now and then" reader. At some point I will pop up and comment on the insanity of the T&T world or marvel at your admirable commitment to detail...and then disappear for a while until my next return visit to the Paradox forums (as time allows).
 
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I'm back! Sort of. I've moved house and everyone survived, however many things are still in boxes or disassembled so there still isn't time for replying to all your comments, discussions and speculation. However in the fullness of time and at the appropriate juncture all these things will occur.

I just felt I should express my delight and pleasure that this humble work is still prompting such erudite discussion.
IndeedSir.gif
 
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I'm back! Sort of. I've moved house and everyone survived, however many things are still in boxes or disassembled so there still isn't time for replying to all your comments, discussions and speculation. However in the fullness of time and at the appropriate juncture all these things will occur.

I just felt I should express my delight and pleasure that this humble work is still prompting such erudite discussion.
IndeedSir.gif

Having performed much of the same evolution as you have--though not quite finished with the flat yet--I can sympathize!
 
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I'm back! Sort of. I've moved house and everyone survived, however many things are still in boxes or disassembled so there still isn't time for replying to all your comments, discussions and speculation. However in the fullness of time and at the appropriate juncture all these things will occur.

I just felt I should express my delight and pleasure that this humble work is still prompting such erudite discussion.
IndeedSir.gif

This is fourth or fifth moving since start of AAR? 'Tis been a long, long journey :)
 
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