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Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
Countries.png

Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png
This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:
  1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
  2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
  3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
  4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
Religion.png

This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
Markets.png

The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
Population 1.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Population 4.png
Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!
 
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To be fair, the problem isn't the walls of text, it's that it's an ever growing copy-pasta of stuff he posted numerous times before.
I have only done that once where I mentioned in the first sentence that this is a compilation of everything I wrote before.

Imagine being shocked that a post saying is a copy-paste of previous posts turns out to be…… a copy-paste of previous posts.

I don’t think Mingmung’s hate is about the walls of text. As he clearly has no problem with other walls of text.
 
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I have only done that once where I mentioned in the first sentence that this is a compilation of everything I wrote before. So yeah, big shock that a post saying is a copy-paste of previous posts turns out to be a copy-paste of previous posts. I don’t think Mingmung’s hate is about the walls of text. As he clearly has no problem with other walls of text.
It is about the walls of text, as these copy-pastes are unnecessary and it's hard to discern feedback from them, too. You don't even use the 'spoiler'-option to hide it, which is annoying.

Hate is a bit of a strong word.
 
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It is about the walls of text, as these copy-pastes are unnecessary and it's hard to discern feedback from them, too. You don't even use the 'spoiler'-option to hide it, which is annoying.

Hate is a bit of a strong word.
I was far from the only one with walls of text without ‘spoiler’ option here, so why single me out?

It’s very easy to discern them, when you see in the first sentence “this is a compilation of everything previously posted” if you read everything previously posted you can skip it.
 
I was far from the only one with walls of text without ‘spoiler’ option here, so why single me out?

It’s very easy to discern them, when you see in the first sentence “this is a compilation of everything previously posted” if you read everything previously posted you can skip it.
Why would you repeat such things. The devs will have read the first point.

It's unnecessary clutter.
 
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Why would you repeat such things. The devs will have read the first point.

It's unnecessary clutter.
I have a hard time believing that you were so bothered about a compilation post I made 50 pages ago that you can easily skip to cause you to write holy crab, please don’t post again Zeprion.

This does look like it’s rather personal for some reason.
 
I have a hard time believing that you were so bothered about a compilation post I made 50 pages ago that you can easily skip to cause you to write holy crab, please don’t post again Zeprion.

This does look like it’s rather personal for some reason.
It's not. I would just like that our next bit of feedback actually reaches the ears and eyes of the devs (again) this coming Monday, without too much clutter for them to wade through.

Both of us probably want the best, so that's what unifies us. I'm just not a fan of repeated walls of texts for unnecessary reasons. Small comments here and there? Maybe a meme or two? No problems whatsoever. Not all of our discourse here has to be serious or constructive. But those big walls of text are too cumbersome and not even easy to read, missing the point, etc.

Anyway, this is my opinion, and I'm not the only one. Let's just do our best ;) And, again, nothing personal against you!
 
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@Zeprion To be fair, you were publicly called out/warned by the devs for your constant reposts.
Well, close but not really, it was that case with Wallachian =\= Transylvanian and many people pointed out that using for both Romanians is more accurate, I was one of those many but happened to have the largest post explaining the difference between all eastern romance, the devs replied with “okay, we get it”.
 
It's not. I would just like that our next bit of feedback actually reaches the ears and eyes of the devs (again) this coming Monday, without too much clutter for them to wade through.

Both of us probably want the best, so that's what unifies us. I'm just not a fan of repeated walls of texts for unnecessary reasons. Small comments here and there? Maybe a meme or two? No problems whatsoever. Not all of our discourse here has to be serious or constructive. But those big walls of text are too cumbersome and not even easy to read, missing the point, etc.

Anyway, this is my opinion, and I'm not the only one. Let's just do our best ;) And, again, nothing personal against you!
That’s something I can get behind. True, we all want the best for EU5, let’s just do our best. I’ll go less into memes and… everything this topic was, and just focus on the technical discussion.

And when I write new posts I’ll make them more to the point with less tangents and more technical discussions.
 
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That’s something I can get behind. True, we all want the best for EU5, let’s just do our best. I’ll go less into memes and… everything this topic was, and just focus on the technical discussion.

And when I write new posts I’ll make them more to the point with less tangents and more technical discussions.
This thread itself had died down before the bit on Moldavian culture started. It basically culminated. So, it's fine to post some non-constructive things here and now. Don't get me wrong. I was talking about big posts, and not the size of the posts themselves, but the unnecessary need to copy/paste them again which can be annoying when scrolling through the feedback here; That's all. ;)

Anyway, I don't want to come off as too serious. Or that I'm gatekeeping you or something.

I'm going to prepare a small post with links to other people's insights regarding the presumably un-adjusted borders between Serbia, Bulgaria and the Eastern Roman Empire (Bukelon, Ahtopol, the Vidin-region...). Though I'm happy that Strumica and Kocani have been given to Serbia! As this shouldn't necessarily be a hard thing to fix/look into by the devs.
 
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This thread itself had died down before the bit on Moldavian culture started. It basically culminated. So, it's fine to post some non-constructive things here and now. Don't get me wrong. I was talking about big posts, and not the size of the posts themselves, but the unnecessary need to copy/paste them again which can be annoying when scrolling through the feedback here; That's all. ;)

Anyway, I don't want to come off as too serious. Or that I'm gatekeeping you or something.

I'm going to prepare a small post with links to other people's insights regarding the presumably un-adjusted borders between Serbia, Bulgaria and the Eastern Roman Empire (Bukelon, Ahtopol, the Vidin-region...). Though I'm happy that Strumica and Kocani have been given to Serbia! As this shouldn't necessarily be a hard thing to fix/look into by the devs.
The Moldavian culture restarted the topic with fire. And by the time I was it, there were already 5 pages where they concluded that Moldavians almost didn’t exist in Moldova prior to 1337. When I tried to point out that they in fact did, suddenly I was the bad guy and you guys came at me with bullying and memes. At when I fought back with memes too suddenly I was the bad guy picking on everyone else.

So I did not appreciate those memes as much as you may have.

I’ll wait for the feedback topic to see whether there are any issues left. But I won’t engage in those kind of talks again even if I’m personally attacked again. I’ll just stick to the sources, lack of sources and arguments.

I hope you can see how your original message in this discussion we have right now came across as yet another attempt of bullying into submission from a long list of such things.
 
@Pavía @Aldaron

This post has been compiled together after seeing the latest image of the worldmap of Project Caesar, which may not reflect all of the important border-changes that have been discussed in this thread. We've already seen some changes to Strumica and Kocani, as well as a totally new setup of the Albanian region, which we really like! But not everything's there yet. Maybe it's an older build, we don't know, but here's a summary with links to the corresponding comments/pages talking about location transfers between Serbia, Bulgaria, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Anjou-dependencies. Some of these may have been included already, but may not be visible on the latest worldmap, as zooming in makes it too blurry to see properly.

In short:
- Ahtopol to Bulgaria and a change in location-borders. Maybe a split.
- Visesav, Svrljig, Kozelj and maybe Pirot to Bulgaria.
- Bukelon to the Eastern Roman Empire, maybe a change in location-borders to do the same with Plovdiv, too.
- Flórina to Serbia.
- Bouthrotón and Kérkyra to the Anjou's (not sure if Naples, Albania, or a new tag altogether).
- Leukás and Vónitsa to the Count of Brienne (Argos).
- Ándros to Naxos instead of Venice.

Regarding Ahtopol:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29961178
If the location-setup is indeed being adjusted, then please don’t forget the possible addition of a Bizye/Vize location in the vicinity (something I and some others mentioned in earlier comments months ago). Even with this important town (hopefully) getting added to the game, Ahtopol could still be split in a Bulgarian and a Byzantine part to better portray this border-region, and the post above has just the solution for that.

Some supporting maps:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Bulgaria_Theodore_Svetoslav.png and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Military_campaign_of_Theodore_Svetoslav_(1303-1304).png
Obviously not the same time as the game’s start, but it shows how the border could look when taking the river Veleka into account.


Regarding the Serbian/Bulgarian border (Visesav, Svrljig, Kozelj and maybe Pirot):
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29959495
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29951850
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29952465


Regarding Plovdiv and Bukelon:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29848530
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29847326
This Wikipedia article (when using the Bulgarian version, and then translating it to English) also mentions the multiple times Bukelon changed hands just before 1337, and after that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matochina_Fortress
Bukelon.PNG



Regarding Flórina:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina
Florina.PNG



Regarding Butrint and Corfu:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint
Butrint.PNG



Regarding Leukás and Vónitsa:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29874267
Count of Brienne.PNG

And how Cephalonia should be a Dominion under Achaia:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29874233
 
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@Pavía @Aldaron

This post has been compiled together after seeing the latest image of the worldmap of Project Caesar, which may not reflect all of the important border-changes that have been discussed in this thread. We've already seen some changes to Strumica and Kocani, as well as a totally new setup of the Albanian region, which we really like! But not everything's there yet. Maybe it's an older build, we don't know, but here's a summary with links to the corresponding comments/pages talking about location transfers between Serbia, Bulgaria, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Anjou-dependencies. Some of these may have been included already, but may not be visible on the latest worldmap, as zooming in makes it too blurry to see properly.

In short:
- Ahtopol to Bulgaria and a change in location-borders. Maybe a split.
- Visesav, Svrljig, Kozelj and maybe Pirot to Bulgaria.
- Bukelon to the Eastern Roman Empire, maybe a change in location-borders to do the same with Plovdiv, too.
- Flórina to Serbia.
- Bouthrotón and Kérkyra to the Anjou's (not sure if Naples, Albania, or a new tag altogether).
- Leukás and Vónitsa to the Count of Brienne (Argos).
- Ándros to Naxos instead of Venice.

Regarding Ahtopol:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29961178
If the location-setup is indeed being adjusted, then please don’t forget the possible addition of a Bizye/Vize location in the vicinity (something I and some others mentioned in earlier comments months ago). Even with this important town (hopefully) getting added to the game, Ahtopol could still be split in a Bulgarian and a Byzantine part to better portray this border-region, and the post above has just the solution for that.

Some supporting maps:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Bulgaria_Theodore_Svetoslav.png and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Military_campaign_of_Theodore_Svetoslav_(1303-1304).png
Obviously not the same time as the game’s start, but it shows how the border could look when taking the river Veleka into account.


Regarding the Serbian/Bulgarian border (Visesav, Svrljig, Kozelj and maybe Pirot):
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29959495
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29951850
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29952465


Regarding Plovdiv and Bukelon:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29848530
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29847326
This Wikipedia article (when using the Bulgarian version, and then translating it to English) also mentions the multiple times Bukelon changed hands just before 1337, and after that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matochina_Fortress
View attachment 1220571


Regarding Flórina:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina
View attachment 1220572


Regarding Butrint and Corfu:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butrint
View attachment 1220573


Regarding Leukás and Vónitsa:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29874267
View attachment 1220575
And how Cephalonia should be a Dominion under Achaia:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rpathia-and-the-balkans.1693751/post-29874233
NOOO now theyll postpone the feedback 5 months away!
 
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We should remember that the feedback is not the end of the development. We should see the feedback and take it from there. Hopefully, without personal attacks this time.
 
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