Tomorrow Belongs To Me - A 'Democratic' Germany AAR

[TheButterflyComposer]

He was indeed sound and clubbable. At the other end he was good at the 'walk and talk' when in Canada which made a very good impression. He would certainly be a very different sort of monarch than anyone in Germany is used to and from the FO perspective that is a good thing, the more points of difference the better.

I found him in my notes. Old army man of the same generation as Atherleigh (the prince is a year older). Presumably got on well enough though who knows how well.

OTL, popular in Canada and governer general there until 1916. TTL, with the Confederation still in relatively early stages, probably quite important and busy traveling around figuring out how it's going to work, what the Westminister and Royal postion on potential outcomes are...

Wondered about bringing him in as the cabinet and government crisis in January tries to get resolved, but to be honest, he's needed in the colonies.

End result wise OTL/TTL proposals: If Canada does unify and want for a king of their own, he is the obvious choice from their perspective. Canada becoming a kingdom of the union under George V or Edward is also an option. Then theres the dominion and imp fed options, though given the historical situation with the US, I doubt either side is looking for indendence or true self sufficency at this point.

Managed well that is a good dynamic, not quite good cop/bad cop but something similar. You are not going to get rid of Franco-German enmity anytime soon and there is no point trying, so why not use it?

"If you don't take this very reasonable proposal for Prince Arthur as monarch then, with much regret, we would have to support the French proposal for a junior scion of the House of Bonaparte to rule you all as an absolute dictator and force your children to be raised as French."

Of course that dynamic could also go disastrously wrong, but as I doubt anyone will be playing the Wilson role and wrecking everything I suspect it will work out.

Worth a shot. The Germans live in fear of a French confederation of the rhine, which the French no doubt will not help themsevles to deliberately cite as an example (either literally from the government or in the popular press).

The British and other entente members naturally want no such thing, but letting French have their granduer moment and serving as the deeply unreasonable partner means everyone else can serve as a better neighbour.

It does however mean that far right organisations in bavaria and all over the germanies, actually do have something to complain about and point to as perfidious.

It'll also be damn controversial in Paris amongst the communists and socialists.

Yes, this scenario is shaping up nicely to be a bubbling catastrophe/soup full of tension points everywhere to get interested about.

From a very British perspective letting the French ruin the Rhine is probably a good thing. It gives them an outlet for revenge and something to squeeze for reparations, it can also be a good horse trading point as if France gets it way there it will have to conceded elsewhere. Economically wrecking the Rhine valley doesn't damage British interests, indeed it will cripple several major competitors and make things easier for many British industrial firms, and it will leave the wider German market (that Britain did trade with) mostly unmolested and dependent on British imports to replace those goods the Rhine is no longer making.

Indeed. I was working under the impression the UK would be fine with the French doing what they will, so long as it did stay quasi independent. Not that they would not verbally protest at something like the OTL 20s occupation and direct looting of coal etc. But it doesn't matter that much so long as it doesn't hurt relations with Hannover and the wider German realms.

 

[El Pip]

It does however mean that far right organisations in bavaria and all over the germanies, actually do have something to complain about and point to as perfidious.

Not following that. Germany lost, to France. What on earth did anyone expect? Where's the deceit to make it perfidious?

A minority might complain, but just after a disastrous war I think pan-Germanic feeling is not going to be particularly strong. It is going to be many, many years before any little germany risks French retribution by getting involved in the Rhineland issues.

It'll also be damn controversial in Paris amongst the communists and socialists.

No, this is France so the hatred of Germany will far outweigh any mere doctrinal issue, just one look at the devastation in Northern France will shut up almost all controversy. I've no doubt there will be a tiny faction that does sympathise, but this is the far left so there will be dozens of factions with weird views, all of whom hate each other far more than anything else.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Not following that. Germany lost, to France. What on earth did anyone expect? Where's the deceit to make it perfidious?

You underestimate German revanchism at your peril. The far right in OTL had no end of betrayal conspiracies from within and without. Enemies aren't supposed to destroy countries even if they win...unless Germany does it of course, because that's all good and proper.

No, this is France so the hatred of Germany will far outweigh any mere doctrinal issue, just one look at the devastation in Northern France will shut up almost all controversy. I've no doubt there will be a tiny faction that does sympathise, but this is the far left so there will be dozens of factions with weird views, all of whom hate each other far more than anything else.

As above, though I take your point. I expect France will be slightly more conservative and nasty than it already was to whatever German states it gets influence over, and possibly transfer that over to the French population too, especially in the 'French' Alsace Lorraine.

 

[J_Master]

Better than Belgium OTL then...

Simple matter of geography really. The only connection Belgium has with the Ruhr is the Iron Rhine, the Netherlands has the actual Rhine, and this Netherlands has both. What I definitely could see happening in regards to the river is the Netherlands gaining a disproportionate degree of controll over it and its water. I don't know anything about really concrete plans, but every time the idea of harnassing Rhine water for power generation is floated in the Netherlands Germany objects heavily because they fear it would negatively effect them. The Netherlands is now in a prime position to force the Rhenish Republic to accept terms in regards to the river which set up future Dutch exploitation. And France wouldn't really have a problem with this AFAIK

Yeah, it's a only Nixon can go to China situation, but several times over. We need someone who is well respected by the Old Guard, has at least some credit with the West, firm bonds with the Eastern states, reliably anti-communist but not vehemently anti-socialist, but also won't be couped or fall to the Nazis or similar groups either...and preferably has the loyalty of most of the various armies if it came down to it. And at various points it probably will come down to it, before and after reunification (which would be a piecemeal thing I expect, slowly making the north strong and stable, then getting associate members and a wider cooperation and economic area involved, and then integration over time).

The FO and Civil Service did like a federation because it enables you to say contradictory things to different groups while not actually lying and herd together different groups. That therefore is the problem, because they've long used it to weld different chunks together they can see how it can be abused as a vehicle to re-unite Germany, plus of course the whole German Confederation issue proves that even if you go Confederation vs Federation you still run the risk of the negative outcome (i.e. reunited Germany).

Brandenburg being a unitary state is going to be a big wrench in any attempt at German reunification. It being a inheritor of the old Prussian model is actually wanted by the Entente powers. Yes the Prussians are gone and the state explicitly disassociates itself from that legacy, but the Prussian way of governance would be held. And its attitute towards a federal German order would be made obvious by its annexation of Saxony-Thuringia. No other German state would accept reunification on unitary terms except Prussia, and no other state would accept Prussia's terms because it's Old Prussia. Setting up a federation is a part of playing them apart, as the Rhenish Republic would be a highly reorganized federal system which North Germany and South Germany wouldn't accept because they are mainly made up of old states unwilling to let go of their rights. Plus Rhenish politicians would be heavily discredited by working with the French and Dutch. Von Ouster's first battle after gaining power in Berlin would have to be to force the SPD to give up the unitary system which by that point they have faught and bled for.

On that note I think the FO will also not be particularly precious about claims and succession, theses little Germanic nations are going to be 'new states' (from some perspectives) so creative options are available and I think they would push for them, it is a bit later but if you can buck the rules to kick Edward VIII out then surely you can be at least as ruthless on a foreign court. Therefore I think the arugment will be that Hannover does not actually need to be ruled by the House of Hannover/Brunswick/whatever, particulary if it keeps the Hohenzollerns out of the picture, which I agree is a priority. I'm not even sure they'd be allowed to retain Duke of Brunswick frankly, the Hohenzollern link while ruling Prussia is just begging for trouble, if they do it is a courtesty title and nothing more. For Hannover once you look elsewhere there are options. As an example The Duke of Cambridge was Regent in Hannover, a descendant from the FitzGeorge line could be fun. Could do a Sweden and draft in a foreign general, obviously my preference is King Haig of Hannover as it would be delightful. To be mildly more seriously Prince Arthur (3rd son of Queen Victoria) is alive, healthy and plausible.

The Hanoverian crown prince Ernest August was exiled when Hannover was annexed by Prussia during the Brother's War. He became claimant to Hannover and head of that house in 1878 and when the Duke of Brunswick died in 1883 he was also the heir apparent there, but because of his unwillingness to abandon the Hannoverian claim he was not allowed to assume the throne by the Bundesrat because it threatened to destabilize the German state. Eventually, he abandoned the claims in favour of his youngest and only surviving son also named Ernest August, who assumed the throne of Brunswick in 1913 and also abandoned the Hanoverian claim. Their British peerages were revoked because duke Ernest August was waging war against the UK under the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917, effective from 1919. So yeah I can see why many elements of the British state would not want to push their claim.

clubbable

The greatest requirement for Canada

Canada becoming a kingdom of the union under George V or Edward is also an option.

Funnily enough I consider this a potential outcome for Kaiserreich. As there Canada and the UK are already partially merged through the merger of the Canadian Senate and the House of Lords. Canada becomes a Home Country of the United Kingdom and Great Britain in return adopts a provincial system. Probably bodging together regional representation with hereditary peers in the process, oh how British

It does however mean that far right organisations in bavaria and all over the germanies, actually do have something to complain about and point to as perfidious.

I wouldn't be surprised if the German active and working for the Rhenish Republic would be seen as French and Dutch stooges and in turn become the target of many assasination attempts.

Not following that. Germany lost, to France. What on earth did anyone expect? Where's the deceit to make it perfidious?

A minority might complain, but just after a disastrous war I think pan-Germanic feeling is not going to be particularly strong. It is going to be many, many years before any little germany risks French retribution by getting involved in the Rhineland issues.

I actually find that people treat German objections to the post war status quo too hardly. "Waaah Germany was trying to be revisionist" ok so was France in the post-1815 era. 15 years after Waterloo French armies were again in the Southern Netherlands and this time they achieved their goals, destroying a state which was designed as a buffer against it. In 1823 they were already in Spain for the case of a political intervention which was objected to by the other great powers at the time

You underestimate German revanchism at your peril. The far right in OTL had no end of betrayal conspiracies from within and without. Enemies aren't supposed to destroy countries even if they win...unless Germany does it of course, because that's all good and proper.

Brest-Litovsk is a weird beast. Yes, very much so a case of German imperialism and trying to build its own European order. But, it's also just a indication of the changing order in the European continent, since it ostensibly freed many nationalities from the Russian Empire. The era of multinational empires is over, the era of the nationstate had come. Germany's bound to Austria-Hungary also out of a sense of shared Germanness, and this war is also just going to accelerate the collapse of the Empire and calls to be unified with it. Germany's imperialism can't be as blatant as the empire's of old, and because of that it can never break France in the same manner it breaks Russia

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Simple matter of geography really. The only connection Belgium has with the Ruhr is the Iron Rhine, the Netherlands has the actual Rhine, and this Netherlands has both. What I definitely could see happening in regards to the river is the Netherlands gaining a disproportionate degree of controll over it and its water. I don't know anything about really concrete plans, but every time the idea of harnassing Rhine water for power generation is floated in the Netherlands Germany objects heavily because they fear it would negatively effect them. The Netherlands is now in a prime position to force the Rhenish Republic to accept terms in regards to the river which set up future Dutch exploitation. And France wouldn't really have a problem with this AFAIK

Netherlands was into massive public works post war right? TTL, they have a whole country to fix so might go even further in that direction. Lots of reclamation from the sea. Power and development of the rhine. Really develop the country and try to make it the 4th pillar of Europe, instead of Italy.

And they have a good shot of doing that, because even OTL, they had better production and highet energy consumption than italy, cumilating Belgium, netherlands and Luxembourg together.

Ah yes...Luxembourg becomes tantilising as a target again. No Germany to intervene, France riding high on rhineland and alsace Lorraine, british needing at least intial cooperation regarding hannover...

The United Netherlands might be a bit of a beast industry and economic wise, if they can recover and rebuild properly and quickly from occupation. Big ifs, of course.

Brandenburg being a unitary state is going to be a big wrench in any attempt at German reunification. It being a inheritor of the old Prussian model is actually wanted by the Entente powers. Yes the Prussians are gone and the state explicitly disassociates itself from that legacy, but the Prussian way of governance would be held. And its attitute towards a federal German order would be made obvious by its annexation of Saxony-Thuringia. No other German state would accept reunification on unitary terms except Prussia, and no other state would accept Prussia's terms because it's Old Prussia.

Indeed, the tightrope of 'I am a successor to Prussia but not like that' is going to be tricky.

Setting up a federation is a part of playing them apart, as the Rhenish Republic would be a highly reorganized federal system which North Germany and South Germany wouldn't accept because they are mainly made up of old states unwilling to let go of their rights. Plus Rhenish politicians would be heavily discredited by working with the French and Dutch. Von Ouster's first battle after gaining power in Berlin would have to be to force the SPD to give up the unitary system which by that point they have faught and bled for.

If he can get the SPD and centrist-moderate conservatives to work together even slightly, he'll be doing well.

Getting either to bend so far as to accept Prussia was wrong, Germany was wrong, and this time they need to actually nationbuild, not just rely on nationalism and miltiary successes of Prussia to get a unification...it'll take some doing.

I expect the constitutional convention where Saxony-Thuringia comes in as a proper state under a new federal model, with Brandenburg breaking up into a few new states themsegles...will barely pass and be incredibly controversial. But the benefits will quickly become apparent, and so long as the economy continues to improve, the Germans will accept most anything after the intial post war years.

The second convention, probably after a crisis with bavaria and others, will be harder on one hand with more and stronger outside states involved, but easier in that the system itself is established, stable and has been shown to work.

So yeah I can see why many elements of the British state would not want to push their claim.

It just invites such a mess that it's probably better to enable someone unconnected to the old inheritance BUT connected to the land and state in some way.

The greatest requirement for Canada

For the UK too, especially pre-Lords reform. Which still hasn't really happened yet.

It'll be involved in the huge post war reforms and changes instead.

Funnily enough I consider this a potential outcome for Kaiserreich. As there Canada and the UK are already partially merged through the merger of the Canadian Senate and the House of Lords. Canada becomes a Home Country of the United Kingdom and Great Britain in return adopts a provincial system. Probably bodging together regional representation with hereditary peers in the process, oh how British

Much easier to see happening in Kaiserreich where the UK is basically Canada but with the British aristocracy added on top due to lack of options. Then when they do reclaim the British Isles, far simpler to keep the new old system of provinces for the new old kingdoms being restored.

Here, Union expansion has worked quite well in Scotland and later in Ireland, and those were almost a century apart from each other. It's been just over a century since the union expanded again, so not utterly unreasonable an idea to think about maybe expanding the Canadian confederation, first into its own United kingdom, then into the union of crowns.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Ireland and Canada.

But there'd be issues with that path, not least of which would be how many kingdoms are being made in canada? Is British Columbia being included?

It also means everyone else would want to be a kingdom - West Indies, South Africa, Australia etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if the German active and working for the Rhenish Republic would be seen as French and Dutch stooges and in turn become the target of many assasination attempts.

They killed people for weaker excuses...

I actually find that people treat German objections to the post war status quo too hardly. "Waaah Germany was trying to be revisionist" ok so was France in the post-1815 era. 15 years after Waterloo French armies were again in the Southern Netherlands and this time they achieved their goals, destroying a state which was designed as a buffer against it. In 1823 they were already in Spain for the case of a political intervention which was objected to by the other great powers at the time

Just so. Either you keep them as a great power, in which case...they're a great power, and will want some restitution at some point. Or you smash them apart, getting international condemnation, a load of new states to manage/being hostile long term etx.

Brest-Litovsk is a weird beast. Yes, very much so a case of German imperialism and trying to build its own European order. But, it's also just a indication of the changing order in the European continent, since it ostensibly freed many nationalities from the Russian Empire. The era of multinational empires is over, the era of the nationstate had come.

If only they hadn't been so wedded to placing German kings atop German style monarchies for every single one of them...had they really gone with liberating minor states in eastern Europe, economic and diplomatic influence would have followed very naturally. You don't need to also try and puppet their governments.

Ouster recognises this already during the war so far as a needlessly disruptive and wanky move destined to end in failure. Whether he manages to do anything about it is another thing entirely.

Germany's bound to Austria-Hungary also out of a sense of shared Germanness, and this war is also just going to accelerate the collapse of the Empire and calls to be unified with it.

Yeah, the 'empire' was hardly United. No customs union, no shared legal code, no real economic cooperation at all. Not even miktiary standardisation. It really was just a feudal system where various increasingly modernising nation states and regions were owned by one guy.

They might have figured out some way of ending it better than they did, but I'm not sure there was any saving AH by the end of the 19th century.

Germany's imperialism can't be as blatant as the empire's of old, and because of that it can never break France in the same manner it breaks Russia

They could give it a try, I guess. Hold alsace Lorraine permenatly given its overwhelmingly German by 1914. Maybe some border corrections elsewhere to get the rest of the German majorities. Knock off brittany as its own new realm. The British would like that. Give flanders to Belgium, and lean heavily on Belgium, of course. The British wouldn't like that, but they lost, so who cares?

Take the colonial empire apart and grab all the worthwhile stuff, then use the rest as bribes.

Slap a massive war indemnity and military limits on.

Step back as the place descends into unrest and civil war in the 20s. Then go back in, and finish smashing it apart using the north south divide as a guide.

It won't work as they hope, but this is the German Reich. That won't necessarily stop them doing it.

 

[J_Master]

Netherlands was into massive public works post war right? TTL, they have a whole country to fix so might go even further in that direction. Lots of reclamation from the sea. Power and development of the rhine. Really develop the country and try to make it the 4th pillar of Europe, instead of Italy.

And they have a good shot of doing that, because even OTL, they had better production and highet energy consumption than italy, cumilating Belgium, netherlands and Luxembourg together.

Ah yes...Luxembourg becomes tantilising as a target again. No Germany to intervene, France riding high on rhineland and alsace Lorraine, british needing at least intial cooperation regarding hannover...

The United Netherlands might be a bit of a beast industry and economic wise, if they can recover and rebuild properly and quickly from occupation. Big ifs, of course.

The massive publics works really are a thing later in the Interbellum, especially when the Great Depression propper got going. But yes, there was a flood in 1916 which showed the need to rethink the sea defences around the Zuiderzee, plus a near famine. Plans got going ASAP but these projects really turned into job creating public works once the depression hit. The timing was just lucky I guess. The Afsluitdijk is named in the same breath with things like the Amsterdam Forest and the Twente Canal for this reason. The farms in the Wieringermeerpolder also were made smaller than ideal for the time because they needed to provide jobs to people. The United Netherlands are naturally going to be in a better develloped position than its individual components were. Plus, both halves have access to the colonies of the other, with a well develloped settler population to boot. But yes, using the devastation of war and reconstruction to change things is very Dutch. Rethinking coastal defence because of the 1916 floods could also lead to earlier plans to rework the coast of Zeeland and South Holland in the way that happened post 1953, since the first plans for this were presented already in 1930. And here Den Haag and Brussel aren't wrangling over a connection between Rotterdam and Antwerp because they're in the same country now, connecting the two would be a boon. Honestly, I think a part of the analysis of the "Second Disaster Year" that is 1914 would be that the unification of the North and the South has made the old thinking of the Hollandic Garden of the Republic obsolete and that since 1815 no new theory of national defence was develloped. So if you start working on the rivers and using reparations money to dig new canals, you are also going to include provisions on national defence, so develloping the IJssel Line that was actually a early Cold War project may come early. It's funny really, already in the 18th centuriy there were treaties between the Republic and Prussia over the Rhine, its channalisation, its water and the construction of fortresses at its entry point into the Netherlands.

I expect the constitutional convention where Saxony-Thuringia comes in as a proper state under a new federal model, with Brandenburg breaking up into a few new states themsegles...will barely pass and be incredibly controversial. But the benefits will quickly become apparent, and so long as the economy continues to improve, the Germans will accept most anything after the intial post war years.

I mainly expect him to stick to the old Prussian provinces for this. This isn't the era yet of the radical reorginisation by the occupying Allied powers and it is a easy bone to throw to the conservatives he would have on side.

For the UK too, especially pre-Lords reform. Which still hasn't really happened yet.

It'll be involved in the huge post war reforms and changes instead.

That was supposed to be a joke on Canada and seal clubbing, I just found "clubbable" to be a funny choice of words in regards to Canada

They might have figured out some way of ending it better than they did, but I'm not sure there was any saving AH by the end of the 19th century.

Best case, the empire makes a landing as a confederation in the age of a Paneuropean movement and kinda naturally dissolves into that. That course was set in stone the moment the Empire was bested by Prussia and forced to deal with the Hungarians as unreasonable equals.

They could give it a try, I guess. Hold alsace Lorraine permenatly given its overwhelmingly German by 1914. Maybe some border corrections elsewhere to get the rest of the German majorities. Knock off brittany as its own new realm. The British would like that. Give flanders to Belgium, and lean heavily on Belgium, of course. The British wouldn't like that, but they lost, so who cares?

Take the colonial empire apart and grab all the worthwhile stuff, then use the rest as bribes.

Slap a massive war indemnity and military limits on.

Step back as the place descends into unrest and civil war in the 20s. Then go back in, and finish smashing it apart using the north south divide as a guide.

It won't work as they hope, but this is the German Reich. That won't necessarily stop them doing it.

Germany doesn't even need to be that hard, nor do I think there is any realistic scenario where it can be that hard. France coming out of a long WW1 defeated effectively kills it as a great power, being one by curtesy only. Italy would be stronger effectively but France has centuries of prestige behind it still. France won't be willing to integrate into Germany's European order and will lag behind because of that and will be dependent on a anti-German power like the UK. And yes Germany did by decree annex a part of the French Ardennes into Belgium so I do see them trying to pull that kind of stuff

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

The massive publics works really are a thing later in the Interbellum, especially when the Great Depression propper got going.

Well...the economy is going to be in shambles, every city and town will need some level of rebuilding, and public infrastructure will have taken a battering not just on the coast but everywhere, given Operation Austerlitz is coming alongside the floods, and neither side is going to focus primarily on fixing what doesn't absolutely have to be fixed.

Post war, the government fully returns to the country and has to enmact some major changes if the country is to survive and not fall into a similar cycle of chaos and revolution as just over the border in Germany.

I mainly expect him to stick to the old Prussian provinces for this. This isn't the era yet of the radical reorginisation by the occupying Allied powers and it is a easy bone to throw to the conservatives he would have on side.

He's actually going to be in exile for the really unstable years, come to think. So Brandenburg might eat the saxons by thesmevles, and then in a few years, the unitary problems become unavoidable, and it's one of the first things he has to handle alongside the other massive issues...

That was supposed to be a joke on Canada and seal clubbing, I just found "clubbable" to be a funny choice of words in regards to Canada

I know the Canadian government waged a pretty brutal war on sled dogs and other animals required for native living. Is there a big sealing culture in Canada?

Germany doesn't even need to be that hard, nor do I think there is any realistic scenario where it can be that hard. France coming out of a long WW1 defeated effectively kills it as a great power, being one by curtesy only. Italy would be stronger effectively but France has centuries of prestige behind it still. France won't be willing to integrate into Germany's European order and will lag behind because of that and will be dependent on a anti-German power like the UK. And yes Germany did by decree annex a part of the French Ardennes into Belgium so I do see them trying to pull that kind of stuff

To be honest, France coming out as a victor OTL was the end of it being a serious great power. Here, the damage is a lot worse, the death toll similar, and their alliance, the Entente, is already turning into a British led one and the war is not even finished growing yet.

Population wise, they are also lagging behind Germany and the UK even more than OTL, with a smaller and older population. TTL, Germany had roughly 65 to 70 million, the UK 55 to 60 million, and France was at 40.

Come to think, with Germany splitting up, and Austria Hungary dissolved, the largest country in Europe by population post war may well be the UK?...huh...

Didn't intend that to happen, but interesting nonetheless...

 

[Historywhiz]

The Hanoverian crown prince Ernest August was exiled when Hannover was annexed by Prussia during the Brother's War. He became claimant to Hannover and head of that house in 1878 and when the Duke of Brunswick died in 1883 he was also the heir apparent there, but because of his unwillingness to abandon the Hannoverian claim he was not allowed to assume the throne by the Bundesrat because it threatened to destabilize the German state. Eventually, he abandoned the claims in favour of his youngest and only surviving son also named Ernest August, who assumed the throne of Brunswick in 1913 and also abandoned the Hanoverian claim. Their British peerages were revoked because duke Ernest August was waging war against the UK under the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917, effective from 1919. So yeah I can see why many elements of the British state would not want to push their claim.

Eh, I’m going to have to stick an oar in for the House of Hanover here. Unlike, say the Saxe-Coburgs, they at least seem to have maintained cordial relations with the British royal family after WWI and even WWII. I suspect their inclusion in the Titles Deprivation Act was more just it would have been too difficult and politically costly to argue for their exclusion than any particular malice. I think that them getting the throne of an independent Hanover/Lower Saxony post-war is entirely plausible here, particularly as they were fighting for it for decades all by themselves until literally the year before this war broke out.

It also solves neatly the issue of the exile of the lesser members of the House of Hohenzollern, who probably cannot be allowed to remain in Brandenburg/Prussia, and whom most of the rest of the traditional “comfortable exile destinations” in Europe (I.e, The Netherlands, the French Riviera and Iberia) would happily mount their heads on pikes. Here though, they can be the honored family of the popular crown princess and future queen of Hanover, and can be entertained in a manner befitting their station while the British armed forces and intelligence services keep very close tabs on them.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

It also solves neatly the issue of the exile of the lesser members of the House of Hohenzollern, who probably cannot be allowed to remain in Brandenburg/Prussia, and whom most of the rest of the traditional “comfortable exile destinations” in Europe (I.e., The Netherlands, the French Riviera and Iberia) would happily mount their heads on pikes. Here though, they can be the honoured family of the popular crown princess and future queen of Hanover, and can be entertained in a manner befitting their station while the British armed forces and intelligence services keep very close tabs on them.

That's the issue - everyone is gunning for them, all of them. Hannover is too close to France, the Netherlands, and worst of all, inside Germany, to host the Hohenzollern. I doubt the people of Hannover would be particularly happy to host them either, especially if the new monarch is constantly around them and having them as honoured guests.

If the Kaiser and main family are captured, tried and punished with a mixture of penalties including exile, the other lesser family members might get away with Hannover if they renounce all claims personally and in perpetuity, but even so...their wealth would not be released by the Entente or the new German states (maybe Brandenburg, just to get him to go away and shut up)

The Kaiser himself, assuming he isn't shot due to a mixture of Royal intervention and lingering distaste for doing the same thing the Soviets may have already done to the Romanovs, has the choice of Switzerland or maybe Scandinavia (he liked tree felling and log cutting in his OTL exile - I'm sure he can be stuck in a Norwegian estate somewhere and left to go mad).

Eh, I’m going to have to stick an oar in for the House of Hanover here. Unlike, say the Saxe-Coburgs, they at least seem to have maintained cordial relations with the British royal family after WWI and even WWII. I suspect their inclusion in the Titles Deprivation Act was more just it would have been too difficult and politically costly to argue for their exclusion than any particular malice. I think that them getting the throne of an independent Hanover/Lower Saxony post-war is entirely plausible here, particularly as they were fighting for it for decades all by themselves until literally the year before this war broke out.

This on the other hand is more questionable. And basically entirely dependant on whether the British want to stick their own oar out for them or find someone else. And there are various other, far less contentious and potentially thorny, choices.

 

[J_Master]

That's the issue - everyone is gunning for them, all of them. Hannover is too close to France, the Netherlands, and worst of all, inside Germany, to host the Hohenzollern. I doubt the people of Hannover would be particularly happy to host them either, especially if the new monarch is constantly around them and having them as honoured guests.

If the Kaiser and main family are captured, tried and punished with a mixture of penalties including exile, the other lesser family members might get away with Hannover if they renounce all claims personally and in perpetuity, but even so...their wealth would not be released by the Entente or the new German states (maybe Brandenburg, just to get him to go away and shut up)

The Kaiser himself, assuming he isn't shot due to a mixture of Royal intervention and lingering distaste for doing the same thing the Soviets may have already done to the Romanovs, has the choice of Switzerland or maybe Scandinavia (he liked tree felling and log cutting in his OTL exile - I'm sure he can be stuck in a Norwegian estate somewhere and left to go mad).

I often muse on the fact that the best long term decision made by Germany at the start of the war was not invading the Netherlands since it made Wilhelm II's flight from the OHL in Spa that fatefull November much easier. Imagine if he had to flee to Switzerland. The flight was already a dangerous affair, since the train went to the border empty and a convoy of cars had to avoid Liege because of mutineering soldiers who had set up soldier councils and had a real risk of running into roadblocks set up. Eventually, before the border the Emperor was able to board the train and cross into the Netherlands, where stunned border guards had to take in his request for asylum and telegraph it to Den Haag. For Wilhelm II Switzerland or Scandinavia do seem the most likely options, but considering that IRL it was a fleet mutiny that brough about the end of the German monarchy, I don't know to what degree Willy will be able to safely flee to Scandinavia. Especially considering Jacky Fisher is in charge of British naval planning. Or it turns into a daring escape via airplane. Brandenburg's relationship with the former royals is the most interesting IMO. Brandenburg is going to be the most left wing state coming out of Germany's collapse and forced dismantlement. South Germany, North Germany and the Rhineland were they not under foreign pressure would have no problem hosting former royals IMO. But, Brandenburg is als going to be the most politically independent state of all, which allows them to be more accomodating to the former royals, something the other German states can't. Well, all except Prussia, and Poland may just allow Prussia to take in all these exiled representatives of the old German order just to have a ace up its sleeve. And thinking about Prussia, it probably becomes a major place for Von Ouster to organize his forces and rendezvous with reinforcements and supplies whilst he's on his decade long mythmaking campaign against the commies.

Well...the economy is going to be in shambles, every city and town will need some level of rebuilding, and public infrastructure will have taken a battering not just on the coast but everywhere, given Operation Austerlitz is coming alongside the floods, and neither side is going to focus primarily on fixing what doesn't absolutely have to be fixed.

Post war, the government fully returns to the country and has to enmact some major changes if the country is to survive and not fall into a similar cycle of chaos and revolution as just over the border in Germany.

I expect the Germans have plans to flood large parts of the Netherlands to stop any kind of Entente advance and they won't be as carefull in this as the Dutch are. If you combine this with the natural flood coming there is the serious danger of actual land loss, which would be absolutely traumatizing because that hasn't happened in centuries. Sure, Schokland was lost due to erosion but that's a mere island. Zeeland in general also has seen towns lost due to natural erosion of the islands and expansion of the sea arms but this was also always compensated by gains elsewhere. The last loss of land due to a flood I can think of is in the 16th century. This is the kind of event that can create lasting features of the Netherlands. The Bieschbos, the Dollard, even the whole Zuiderzee was formed by floods like this! This whole scenario is shaping up to be a "through the eye of the needle" scenario

He's actually going to be in exile for the really unstable years, come to think. So Brandenburg might eat the saxons by thesmevles, and then in a few years, the unitary problems become unavoidable, and it's one of the first things he has to handle alongside the other massive issues...

Pretty much what I was imagining. Brandenburg just straight up annexing Saxony, one of the most important federal states of the German Empire and a kingdom not long ago to boot indicates what its political leadership thinks Germany should be organized like and alienates itself from the other states untill there is a change in leadership and course

To be honest, France coming out as a victor OTL was the end of it being a serious great power. Here, the damage is a lot worse, the death toll similar, and their alliance, the Entente, is already turning into a British led one and the war is not even finished growing yet.

Population wise, they are also lagging behind Germany and the UK even more than OTL, with a smaller and older population. TTL, Germany had roughly 65 to 70 million, the UK 55 to 60 million, and France was at 40.

Come to think, with Germany splitting up, and Austria Hungary dissolved, the largest country in Europe by population post war may well be the UK?...huh...

Didn't intend that to happen, but interesting nonetheless...

Yes, but when France wins the war when Russia is knocked out, it establishes itself as Continental Europe's greatest military power, which here would be even further backed up by the fact it breaks Germany by pure force of arms, which doesn't apply to Austria-Hungary for example. And you are leaving out the Russians from the equation

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I often muse on the fact that the best long term decision made by Germany at the start of the war was not invading the Netherlands since it made Wilhelm II's flight from the OHL in Spa that fatefull November much easier.

TTL, as much as it will be critqued as an obvious error post-war and used by German generals to blame the Kaiser, I'm not sure what else the Germans could have done if they wanted to fight France and knock them out quickly.

The other option would be just invading Luxemburg, which risks war with the Netherlands anyway, and gives them time to prepare and for the British to show up to reinforce them. I think Germany made the best of several bad choices, after making the initial bad choice of escalating the crisis and going to war int he first place of course.

For Wilhelm II Switzerland or Scandinavia do seem the most likely options, but considering that IRL it was a fleet mutiny that brough about the end of the German monarchy, I don't know to what degree Willy will be able to safely flee to Scandinavia.

He'd have to either do a very risky run to Switzerland via very dangerous country roads, followed by a literal climb over the Alps...or he gets to Denmark by various means, and is then caught between a sovereignty struggle, as the Entente very much want the Danes to hand him over, Scandinavia backs up Danish independence but offers to take him in themselves to take the pressure off, which Denmark is both relieved by and also worried over as it brings back up the union question with Scandinavia...and for everyone, it makes what to do about northern Germany a bit more complicated too as everyone has this other issue to negotiate at the same time.

Especially considering Jacky Fisher is in charge of British naval planning.

Maybe not by war's end. He's increasingly ill. Operation Austerlitz might be his last hurrah, if the government can find an acceptable replacement (that he will endorse).

Or it turns into a daring escape via airplane.

Or airship? Dying in the attempt would just ice this cake of catastrophe.

Brandenburg's relationship with the former royals is the most interesting IMO.

Well, they have most of their stuff. Land, palace, furniture, money etc. It's up to them whether they hand it out (and give the OTL additional massive cash presents to the Kaiser in exile).

Well, all except Prussia, and Poland may just allow Prussia to take in all these exiled representatives of the old German order just to have a ace up its sleeve.

And thinking about Prussia, it probably becomes a major place for Von Ouster to organize his forces and rendezvous with reinforcements and supplies whilst he's on his decade long mythmaking campaign against the commies.

I have no idea even now, months after seeing the map allowing for an independent rump Prussia, what will happen, if anything, to that region. Because after everything that's happened, I can't see the Entente letting Prussia exist in any form, and the most likely rump state that could exist, is I believe, majority Polish.

So it'll be an unbelievably tense and dysfunctional place, even if allowed to exist, constantly under fear of annexation by Poland, further recrimination by the Entente, dependant on both for survival, and yet ran by the people who caused a lot of the mess in the first place.

Yeah...idk whether Prussia will be 'a thing', at least officially on the map.

I expect the Germans have plans to flood large parts of the Netherlands to stop any kind of Entente advance and they won't be as carefull in this as the Dutch are. If you combine this with the natural flood coming there is the serious danger of actual land loss, which would be absolutely traumatizing because that hasn't happened in centuries. Sure, Schokland was lost due to erosion but that's a mere island. Zeeland in general also has seen towns lost due to natural erosion of the islands and expansion of the sea arms but this was also always compensated by gains elsewhere. The last loss of land due to a flood I can think of is in the 16th century. This is the kind of event that can create lasting features of the Netherlands. The Bieschbos, the Dollard, even the whole Zuiderzee was formed by floods like this! This whole scenario is shaping up to be a "through the eye of the needle" scenario

Just so. It's a sign the alt history is really getting going when there's a lot of excited 'oh, that means this could happen, and therefore this, and therefore this...etc'.

The Entente might do some unintentional damage too, in the landings and fighting through the country.

Pretty much what I was imagining. Brandenburg just straight up annexing Saxony, one of the most important federal states of the German Empire and a kingdom not long ago to boot indicates what its political leadership thinks Germany should be organized like and alienates itself from the other states untill there is a change in leadership and course

Yes, Ouster returning is going to be a watershed moment - not least because it may or may not have been Entente approved. So him even showing up is a sign of great change, either due to flouting the post-war agreement or perhaps more significantly, the West approving of him going back. Every German state other than Brandenburg would sit up and take note, both greatly concerned and cautiously optimistic, and Brandenburg itself much the same.

Yes, but when France wins the war when Russia is knocked out, it establishes itself as Continental Europe's greatest military power, which here would be even further backed up by the fact it breaks Germany by pure force of arms, which doesn't apply to Austria-Hungary for example. And you are leaving out the Russians from the equation

That's intentional, given how Europe views Russia (i.e. 'Other' - even before the communist stuff).

France will get a lot of prestige and credibility back, but their rather dire economic and military state at the end of the war, and how they treat the Rhineland afterwards, is going to put a mark against them. Sort of like how Spain, Austria Hungary and even the British Empire eventually found themselves in a position where they were Great Powers...so long as they didn't get into a war.

 

[J_Master]

TTL, as much as it will be critqued as an obvious error post-war and used by German generals to blame the Kaiser, I'm not sure what else the Germans could have done if they wanted to fight France and knock them out quickly.

The other option would be just invading Luxemburg, which risks war with the Netherlands anyway, and gives them time to prepare and for the British to show up to reinforce them. I think Germany made the best of several bad choices, after making the initial bad choice of escalating the crisis and going to war int he first place of course.

It's almost like the way in which the German generals tend to push their own failures upon Hitler. I seem to recall Wilhelm II even aksing about changing mobilisation to be only against Russia but by that point it was ongoing and the generals falsely argued that there was no other option anymore.

He'd have to either do a very risky run to Switzerland via very dangerous country roads, followed by a literal climb over the Alps...or he gets to Denmark by various means, and is then caught between a sovereignty struggle, as the Entente very much want the Danes to hand him over, Scandinavia backs up Danish independence but offers to take him in themselves to take the pressure off, which Denmark is both relieved by and also worried over as it brings back up the union question with Scandinavia...and for everyone, it makes what to do about northern Germany a bit more complicated too as everyone has this other issue to negotiate at the same time.

This all assumes Denmark doesn't somehow end up entangled in the war by the British pulling shenannigans and Fisher getting his way.

Maybe not by war's end. He's increasingly ill. Operation Austerlitz might be his last hurrah, if the government can find an acceptable replacement (that he will endorse).

His fingerprints will be all over the conduct of the war from this point onwards. And I see him pushing heavily for the UK to force the Danish Straits and establish naval dominance in the Baltic as another means to put pressure on Germany and to be able to provide more aid to Russia, and boy do they need it! And British presence in the Baltic would make any kind of escape to Scandinavia a whole lote more difficult as well

Well, they have most of their stuff. Land, palace, furniture, money etc. It's up to them whether they hand it out (and give the OTL additional massive cash presents to the Kaiser in exile).

Yeah, but that's also only really for the Hohenzollerns, the other states don't have to worry about that except maybe the Rhenish who will definitely not give it since the French and Dutch will seize it. The other states have their own royals to deal with

I have no idea even now, months after seeing the map allowing for an independent rump Prussia, what will happen, if anything, to that region. Because after everything that's happened, I can't see the Entente letting Prussia exist in any form, and the most likely rump state that could exist, is I believe, majority Polish.

So it'll be an unbelievably tense and dysfunctional place, even if allowed to exist, constantly under fear of annexation by Poland, further recrimination by the Entente, dependant on both for survival, and yet ran by the people who caused a lot of the mess in the first place.

Yeah...idk whether Prussia will be 'a thing', at least officially on the map.

East Prussia as a whole is majority German. The big cities like Königsberg are German. There were three bits up for grabs after the Polish Corridor was established: Danzig, Memel and Masuria. Danzig was majority German but a strategically important port city for Poland's access to the see, thus the LoN Free City status under Polish supervision. Memel was just occupied and annexed by Lithuania for the port with the same name, so much the same reason. And here is where the complication starts. Despite a significant section of the population of that area being Lithuanian, they weren't particularly fond of joining the Lithuanian state for economic and religious reasons. East Prussia was solidly Lutheran with exception of the area's that were initially a part of Poland (Royal Prussia), but they're German. So the Lutheran Lithuanians were doubtfull about the Catholic Lithuanian state and were afraid of their economic prospects by being attached to formerly Russian lands. The same is true for Masuria, the southern border area of East Prussia. This area is filled with Masurians on who there is some debate if they're their own group or just a Polish subgroup. But this debate was much the same. But unlike Memel the Masurians got a free vote, and with a overwhelming 95+% majority they voted for Germany. Will a East Prussian state exist? Most certainly because the area is just too German for any other type of solution. Will it exist with the borders shown? Not nescesarily as I was just working off of the real Versaille borders. What will it look like? Very much open for discussion. A Polish puppet where they tolerate the Old Prussians and their shenannigans to a degree as a vessel for anti-communist aid sounds logical

The Entente might do some unintentional damage too, in the landings and fighting through the country.

The OHL pulling a Hitler and deciding that Walcheren will be made a fortress as a means to block the port of Antwerp to the Entente? It had to be flooded then taken by storm in WW2 so it doesn't sound too unreasonable

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

It's almost like the way in which the German generals tend to push their own failures upon Hitler. I seem to recall Wilhelm II even aksing about changing mobilisation to be only against Russia but by that point it was ongoing and the generals falsely argued that there was no other option anymore.

Not really how mobilisation works, in any case.

This all assumes Denmark doesn't somehow end up entangled in the war by the British pulling shenannigans and Fisher getting his way.

His fingerprints will be all over the conduct of the war from this point onwards. And I see him pushing heavily for the UK to force the Danish Straits and establish naval dominance in the Baltic as another means to put pressure on Germany and to be able to provide more aid to Russia, and boy do they need it! And British presence in the Baltic would make any kind of escape to Scandinavia a whole lote more difficult as well

I forgot about this! I suppose it would be the natural next operation he'd push, depending on how well Austerlitz goes and how much of the Netherlands they manage to recapture quickly. Another big push further east near the Canal would really start to apply pressure to Germany's windpipe...

The two issues would be Austerlitz already having happened, so the Entente are committed in the Netherlands and the Germans know they are capable of pulling something like this off,
And also it would force Denmark and Scandinavia to make a choice between the Entente and Central Powers. If Denmark gets invaded by the Germans first (as OTL plan goes), then Scandivnia will either have to decalre war to defend Dnemark or forget about getting a union with them later. This means two new (albiet very small) armies, a massive merchant navy, and Germany being totally cut off from sea trade and vital resources from Scandinavia.

Or...Germany sees through the bluff, or Denmark protests and tells the British to leave, backed by Scandinavia, who is already annoyed due to the tighter blockade than OTL.

Fisher would no doubt argue its worth the risk, given everything above, but it would really be up to the army and cabinet as to whether they think they'll have enough men to cover both the new fronts in the Netherlands, keep pressure up in Flanders, and launch new fronts to defend Denmark.

The other states have their own royals to deal with

Bavaria will be the really interesting one, because I believe its the oldest and the most popular (discounting the one mad lad they had).

The OHL pulling a Hitler and deciding that Walcheren will be made a fortress as a means to block the port of Antwerp to the Entente? It had to be flooded then taken by storm in WW2 so it doesn't sound too unreasonable

It's going to be hard to take, esepcially as the Entente have scouted the coast on paper and with ships, and so know it's really important but also solidly defended, therefore meaning it might be better to focus on the north instead, and just surround the southern islands and siege them out.

East Prussia as a whole is majority German. The big cities like Königsberg are German. There were three bits up for grabs after the Polish Corridor was established: Danzig, Memel and Masuria. Danzig was majority German but a strategically important port city for Poland's access to the see, thus the LoN Free City status under Polish supervision. Memel was just occupied and annexed by Lithuania for the port with the same name, so much the same reason. And here is where the complication starts. Despite a significant section of the population of that area being Lithuanian, they weren't particularly fond of joining the Lithuanian state for economic and religious reasons. East Prussia was solidly Lutheran with exception of the area's that were initially a part of Poland (Royal Prussia), but they're German. So the Lutheran Lithuanians were doubtfull about the Catholic Lithuanian state and were afraid of their economic prospects by being attached to formerly Russian lands. The same is true for Masuria, the southern border area of East Prussia. This area is filled with Masurians on who there is some debate if they're their own group or just a Polish subgroup. But this debate was much the same. But unlike Memel the Masurians got a free vote, and with a overwhelming 95+% majority they voted for Germany. Will a East Prussian state exist? Most certainly because the area is just too German for any other type of solution. Will it exist with the borders shown? Not nescesarily as I was just working off of the real Versaille borders. What will it look like? Very much open for discussion. A Polish puppet where they tolerate the Old Prussians and their shenannigans to a degree as a vessel for anti-communist aid sounds logical

Yeah, Versailles TTL is going to be as big, difficult and consequential as OTL.

 

[jak7139]

Have just finished page 18 in my attempts to catch up. Loving the various ATL discussions and brainstorming going on.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Have just finished page 18 in my attempts to catch up. Loving the various ATL discussions and brainstorming going on.

Ah...Ninth Circle gets going, and Vlast is introduced. Can't believe it's that long ago tbh.

 

[jak7139]

Some more feedback:

There is no common tongue, no common understanding, no…story...to tell ourselves as to why we are one people…because we are not one.

I'd disagree. The Kievan Rus is similar to the HRE: a feudal, generally culturally/religiously unified state. The KR just split due to infighting and the Mongols. The Muscovy comes along and pushes east to prevent any more Eurasian hordes.

That's, at least, something. You could argue, and I'm sure Vlast would, that that Russia was only in it for the nobility, not for the people, that Tsarist Russia was a continuation of the feudal KR (whereas the HRE was dissolved and an actual German state was created afterwards).

It will be fun to see how the Russian-Ouster narrative develops.

Neither gentleman wished to see an addiction take hold, and thus Radcliffe’s fellows and companions were also quietly informed, both to offer sympathy and to ensure that vice did not arise, nor another took its place.

On his ship, that would not have been such a problem. The rum ration was sacrosanct, naturally, and there was precious little else for an officer to be tempted with unless he brought it with him. On land however, lay the realm of the Mess, the Canteen, and the Club, which he was by protocol and society obliged to visit most evenings.

No one wishes "to see an addiction take hold," but he still has to be an aristocratic socialite, still has to drink to be "polite." Can Radcliffe overcome societal pressures though, that's the question. If he has PTSD after the war, maybe not.

“Build my own zeppelin,” David mused

I really hope David doesn't have an accident in one, i.e OTL Hindneburg.

“Vlast…is something else.” The comrade considered. “He is…what you would call…a visionary. A great man. In need of butchers and cleaners to do his great work. But it is the people of Russia who will reclaim our country and make it our own. The way of pain guides us, has made us strong, and good at taking and receiving. The world will know the pain a strong Russia can deliver and survive.

I sense a betrayal from the Comrade against Vlast coming.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I'd disagree. The Kievan Rus is similar to the HRE: a feudal, generally culturally/religiously unified state. The KR just split due to infighting and the Mongols. The Muscovy comes along and pushes east to prevent any more Eurasian hordes.

That's, at least, something. You could argue, and I'm sure Vlast would, that that Russia was only in it for the nobility, not for the people, that Tsarist Russia was a continuation of the feudal KR (whereas the HRE was dissolved and an actual German state was created afterwards).

It will be fun to see how the Russian-Ouster narrative develops.

At this point, Vlast has only just begun his education...quite literally. He may be a very smart boi, but he's a young teenager who hadn't read anything before the war, and for various understandable reasons, really doesn't actually like Russia all that much.

Ideology will come later on, and I suspect he'll have moved on to 'russia might have a culture but the peasant culture and the tiny proportion of city dwellers plus the one percent nobility culture is so distinct the only unifier is religion...and even then...

No one wishes "to see an addiction take hold," but he still has to be an aristocratic socialite, still has to drink to be "polite."

Even today, it is remarkable how the upper crust and various institutions strongly suggest developing an alcohol addiction. Including the House of Commons.

Can Radcliffe overcome societal pressures though, that's the question. If he has PTSD after the war, maybe not.

Meanwhile ww1 and post war, people were starting to get into the really hard stuff. If the opiod epidemic was a problem in the 1890s, the various concoctions developed for battlefield medicine blew everyone's minds. A large portion of the nazi higher ups were former or current addicts, and the entire German army by the 30s was on a variety of drugs.

Ww1 demobalisation is going to see a ton of amputees, other crippled soldiers, drug addicts, and sexually transmitted diseases (except for French forces, who were supplied with condoms by their government) return home.

Both Ouster and Rodger sustain some impressively nasty wounds in the war, and the mental scarring will linger on.

I really hope David doesn't have an accident in one, i.e OTL Hindneburg.

He really liked planes OTL. And the navy needs someone to head the aviation board, get funding and attention. TTL David is an excellent choice given his station and prior experiences.

 

[DensleyBlair]

I am shamed to say what I thought was simply me being 'a little bit behind' was in fact not having read an update since January 2023. Which rather neatly tallies with the beginning of a period in my life when I spent a year doing the most stressful job I've ever done, so that tracks.

Anyway, back now and pushing on.

Enjoyed Atherleigh's return and the sense of the Radcliffe duo's preternatural ability to pull strings. The financial planning in particular was all very adroit. Intrigued to see from here how exactly the British are able to turn things around. I have no idea it will involve our fair share of unimaginable horrors.

Some of the former Prime Minister’s plans worked brilliantly, some went nowhere, and some, unfortunately, contributed to some of the bloodiest fighting in world history.

A wonderful piece of upper-class English matter-of-factness. I really do think it takes a very particular kind of education to be able to form a sentence like this.

 

[DensleyBlair]

the only base of relevance is the Falkland Islands, which are otherwise unremarkable and uninteresting.

-is perhaps the Galapagos islands, first found in 1535, unclaimed for almost 300 years, before a British flotilla decided to port there after encountering pirates. Five years later, they were the subject of intense investigation by Charles Darwin, who-

“Is this…relevant?”

“I despair of the youth today.”

Malaya had various disputes with Siam, until the kingdom also came under the umbrella of friendship with the British government.

This whole update was a delight

“What an absolute mess it would be to fight a large war in Europe and in the Pacific as well.”

“One could argue the Napoleonic Wars saw limited amounts of fighting across the planet, though the populations involved were much smaller. I agree that in these times, a modern war across an entire planet would be…certainly a great climax of civilizations.”

And a great climax to this tale too, I'm sure

What an odd-looking Pakistan

Comprising Oman, Yemen, Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Kuwait. These small coastal regions dotted around Ottoman Arabia remain of use to us as we now face the unenviable task of fighting in the desert. Whilst the Ottomans have a great deal of experience fighting in such conditions, they also have many enemies amongst the Arab tribes, who may yet be fired in their direction by some suitable bribe or deal.

“Is that likely?”

“I have a man in Yemen working on it. It may come to nothing, but there is no harm in trying.

With sandy blond hair, boyish blue eyes and a taste for the masochistic, no doubt

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Enjoyed Atherleigh's return and the sense of the Radcliffe duo's preternatural ability to pull strings.

It's the first hint that the Radcliffe's have a lot of pull and sway in government, City and private life, and the first suggestion of the question - do they have too much?

The financial planning in particular was all very adroit. Intrigued to see from here how exactly the British are able to turn things around. I have no idea it will involve our fair share of unimaginable horrors.

The British could run Napolean level deficits and bugger on through by telling everyone this is necessary, and the other side will go bankrupt first...but naturally, they would rather avoid this for as long as their allies have lines of credit (and they do have a lot of credit left, given how lucrative some of their colonial adventures are) and the City can back them.

Then there are loans and patriotic/cynical donations from within the union and empire, and the wider British sphere, all of which are preferable than going to Scandinavia (flush with cash at the moment due to war profiteering) or the US (whose private finance would love to make bank on all this but whose government is wise enough to understand that doing so means effectively backing the British).

Worst comes to worst, the UK economy is quite a bit larger than OTL, with a higher population, most people are of young working age, and a lot of stuff To sell off.

It also adds further pressure to Versaille because the British not only need lasting peace and stability in Europe but their allies wealthy enough to pay them back in full.

A wonderful piece of upper-class English matter-of-factness. I really do think it takes a very particular kind of education to be able to form a sentence like this.

There's varying degrees of deference given even with 'intense' criticism.

This whole update was a delight

A very old early victorian gives a briefing to an edwardian about the world. Yes...accuracy is...subjective.

And a great climax to this tale too, I'm sure

A knowing nod to how all wars in HOI4 are total wars that escalate to everyone eventually.

What an odd-looking Pakistan

This was retconned later on in various map discussions. Northernmost India is a seperate British possession split into the punjab under their old ruler (who was very pro British OTL until they didn't give him back his realm after years of asking) and the Northernmost, a seperate Sikh and various other bits.

Ran out of subsections in HOI4 map however, so it's all just under British rule directly.

With sandy blond hair, boyish blue eyes and a taste for the masochistic, no doubt

The OTL/TTL mix for the intial stages of the Arab revolt are quite interesting, if I do say so myself. Atherleigh, even when funding a private war as a sideshow for WW1, can't help but empire build however.