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Tinto Maps #20 - 27th of September 2024 - The Steppes

Hello, and welcome one more week to the weekly encounter for map lovers! This week it’s also directed at horse lovers because we will be looking at the Eurasian Steppes, plus the Urals! So let’s start with the maps without further ado.

Countries:
Countries.jpg

Colored Wastelands.jpg

A glorious, Golden Horde! It is at its power peak, under the reign of Uzbeg Khan, so it's a much more menacing presence for its neighbors. However, it has its some internal issues that need to be managed, as you’ll notice in some of the maps, and in the future when we talk about the content for Hordes. The Golden Horde also heads its own IO, the Tatar Yoke, as shown in a previous Tinto Maps:

Tatar Yoke.jpg

We have already corrected the Ruthenian countries that are under the Horde’s Yoke, although we still have to correct the Russian principalities, which will be done in the corresponding Tinto Maps review. We’re also aware that we need to improve a bit the coloring of the IO, to mark not only the Golden Horde as the overlord of these countries, but also that Muscovy holds the title of the Grand Principality of Vladimir, which makes it the ‘enforcer’ of the Yoke. These fixes are also planned to be done in a few weeks.

Societies of Pops:
Societies of Pops.jpg

Societies of Pops 2.jpg .jpg

A bit up to the north, we have some Societies of Pops! This means that the territory of Western Siberia won’t be empty land, but will be populated by these people, which can be interacted with.

BTW, I’m not showing this week a dynasty map because, well, only the Borgijin dynasty rules over the lands of the Golden Horde, of course!


Locations:
Locations.jpg

Locations Western Siberia.jpg

Locations 3.jpg

Locations 4.jpg

Locations 5.jpg

Tons of locations today… You might notice that the density location is in a progression from west to east, from the most densely settled areas to the less settled ones. You may also notice that we’ve followed a design of ‘settler corridors’ in Western Siberia, setting those parts of the land that were habitable, usually on river valleys.

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Provinces 2.jpg


Areas:
Areas.jpg


Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

The terrain is interesting here, as there are two main ecological areas. The first is the Steppes, Flatlands with Sparse and Grasslands vegetation, with either Cold Arid or Continental climates. And then we have the Siberian Arctics Forests, which are completely different, of course. On a note, the Urals were set as Hills, as they’re a quite settleable area, but we’ll probably make a review with your feedback, and add some mountains there.

Development:
Development.jpg

The whole region is not very developed, you might notice the difference with India, from last week’s Tinto Maps.

Harbors:
Harbors.jpg

There are some harbors in the Steppe region… In the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, of course! As usual, we’re open to feedback on this matter.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Plenty of cultures! One note: Although we planned to work on the religious and cultural minorities of the region during the summer, we ended up not having enough time to add them. So what we’ll be doing today is showing the rough outline of ‘cultural spheres’, and then we’ll add the minorities during the review of the region. In that sense, feedback is very well received.

With that said the only note that needs to be made in terms of the cultural design is that we divided the Tatar cultural group into some differentiated regional cultures, being Crimean, Mishary, Kazani, and Astrakhani. We’re also aware that some of the cultures, as Mari and Chuvash, might be a bit displaced, as noted in the Russian Tinto Maps, so we’ll review and correct that with your feedback.


Religions:
Religions.jpg

Regarding Religions, the matter is a bit worse, as the big Sunni blob is just because the main religion of the Golden Horde is Islam, after the conversion of Uzbeg Khan, but that’s obviously incorrect. Also, as we have been able to forecast development time on how Pagan divisions will be during this autumn, we will make a comprehensive review of the region as well, to get a good distribution of ‘Shamanist’ Paganism, Tengrism, and Sunni Islam.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.jpg

Raw Materials 2.jpg

Raw Materials 3.jpg

Regarding the raw materials, the Steppes have plenty of Livestock and Horses, quite logically, although there are regions with some other goods. And up to the north, the main materials are Lumber and Fur. Apart from that, I want to mention the mineral hub in the Ural Mountains, with plenty of Copper, Iron, Gold, Lead, and Coal. That makes it a very mid and late-game interesting spot, and playing as Muscovy/Russia, I’ll tell you that you definitely want to expand into that region, as it will fulfill some of your material needs by that time.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

Markets! Big region, with lots of markets, although you may noticed that we changed the coloring of the locations that have 0% market access, which is the case in several areas. In any case, the market centers are Kaffa, Astrakhan, Saray-Jük, Kunya Urgench, Samarkand, Almaty, and Chimgi Tura. BTW, these names are much easier to notice in the game’s UI, as they’re beside the market centers:

Markets 2.jpg


Population:
Population.jpg

This week we’re showing only the country population mapmode, as there are some location numbers here and there which are failing, due to the already known issue with our pop editor (and which are on the way to be fixed). In any case, the whole population of the region is around 6.5-7M, of which around 6.3M are part of the Golden Horde. As I said, it’s a menacing country…

And that’s all for today! This is going to be my last Tinto Maps in a while, as I’ll be on vacation for 3 weeks during October (you might have noticed that I didn’t have any during summer), so one of the Content Designers in the team, @Roger Corominas , will step in and be in charge of the next 4 Tinto Maps. It’s in good hands, as Roger is an Experienced CD, who has been working and focused on Project Caesar for more than 3 years, at this point (this is why you might not know him from EU4, as other CDs in our team). In any case, he will be starting with the regions of Xinjiang, mostly ruled by the Chagatai Khanate, and Tibet.

I’ll keep reading and answering you during next week, and then I’ll be back in a month from now. See you!
 
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The Russian Wikipedia mentions two uluses in this territory. I do not know how to translate them, but their names are something like Burundai Ulus (in the west) and Mauci Ulus (in the east)

Ah yes it was something like that. I remember reading about them some months ago but lost the source I was using.
 


Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde), but I wasn't able to figure out their names. I've marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369


How about adding Taibuga jurt (Sibir, Sybyr or Seber) in Siberia?
 
How about adding Taibuga jurt (Sibir, Sybyr or Seber) in Siberia?
Could do. I'm currently thinking if it is worth it to even add these smaller ulus' as we don't know their leaders, or if they were independent in that sense. For example some of the ulus' are clearly part of bigger ulus' ruled by the descendants of Batu, Shiban & Orda.

Some of them simply seem like administrative regions rather than vassals.
 
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Ah yes it was something like that. I remember reading about them some months ago but lost the source I was using.
It doesn't seem like they should exist anyway in 1337, as they would have been destroyed by Uzbek Khan's reforms.
Screenshot_20250120-143408.png

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Золотая_Орда#Улусы
Screenshot_20250120-160219.png

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тука-Тимур

Also, reading the original Russian source, it seems to give an almost radically different setup in the 14th century, where the traditional Blue-White division didn't really exist anymore:
Screenshot_20250120-144642.png

Screenshot_20250120-145756.png

http://annales.info/volga/egorov/04.htm

I'm not really sure where each division would be, but at least the Orda Ulus was replaced by the Kiyat clan
Screenshot_20250120-152126.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamai
 
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Something always worth mentioning is that the Golden Horde left very little in the way of writing about itself. Pretty much all of our sources are from other powers writing about them from the outside.

That makes it exceptionally difficult to know what, exactly, was going on within their internal structure. We know that there was some structured governance in the eastern half that didn't descend into the civil war that consumed the western half. We know this mostly by way of the various writings about Timur and Tokhtamysh. We also know this by virtue of what doesn't show up in our sources on Timur: namely, that there's no civil war on his northern border.
 
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It doesn't seem like they should exist anyway in 1337, as they would have been destroyed by Uzbek Khan's reforms.
View attachment 1245412
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Золотая_Орда#УлусыView attachment 1245416
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тука-Тимур

Also, reading the original Russian source, it seems to give an almost radically different setup in the 14th century, where the traditional Blue-White division didn't really exist anymore:
View attachment 1245413
View attachment 1245414
http://annales.info/volga/egorov/04.htm

I'm not really sure where each division would be, but at least the Orda Ulus was replaced by the Kiyat clan
View attachment 1245421
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamai

This is the guy said to have ruled Orda Ulus at this time, English wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilbasan

And Mubarak Khwaja, Ilbasan's brother (son in Russian wiki) is said to have taken over Orda with help of Uzbek, then later rebelled

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mubarak_Khwaja
 
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This is the guy said to have ruled Orda Ulus at this time, English wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilbasan

And Mubarak Khwaja, Ilbasan's brother (son in Russian wiki) is said to have taken over Orda with help of Uzbek, then later rebelled

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mubarak_Khwaja
Do not trust Wikipedia on this. Even that very article was only recently edited; frankly I wonder whether frequent Wikipedia editors have been reading my complaints because I singled out that article in particular months ago as being laughably incorrect.
It's... complicated. We know so little about what was going on in the Orda Ulus at the time (I'm not gonna bother with the color designation because no one seems to know which is which; if you want a laugh, read the Wikipedia page that can't make up its mind on the matter), that we can't even really say one way or the other who ostensibly held it or whether or not it even really existed in a coherent form (the Wikipedia page for Urus Khan, for instance, mentions that Ozbeg Khan "suppressed" it).

It's also worth noting that Wikipedia is laughably wrong many times over on who was even khan of the Orda Ulus. There's this paper that indicates that the first the the Orda Ulus was properly independent (and minting coinage) was in 1368-1369 under a Mubarak Khoja, who was shortly thereafter supplanted by Urus Khan.

Note that if you were to follow Wikipedia, you'd have this article on the fellow. As a consequence of the paper above, every single piece of information on that article is incorrect.

I did manage to find this article which seems to have a good bit of general information. Rather curiously, it includes this detail:
View attachment 1207822
Shiban, to note, is the progenitor of the Shaybanids of the 16th century.

Also note that your map forgets the Sufids.
 
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Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde). I had a source that had some names, but I lost it so I've simply marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369



This part is really wrong, it should belong to Kyiv, as the devs have in their maps:

Put.png


I posted earlier a post about the princes of Putyvl that ruled in Kyiv in the beginning of the XIV century and overall Kyiv-Putyvl connection.

In general, the Golden Horde had more or less direct control over the steppe territories, while Ruhenian and Russian tributary duchies in more forested areas were controlled via baskaks who collected tributary.

The Vorskla river had always made a natural border between the nomads and settled Rus population since the Kyivan Rus times because it separated the steppe from the forested steppe natural zones.
And it was valid for the Golden Horde border too, I read a source that wrote about that last week actually (I'll post in the next post after this).

This is also supported by the fact that when Lithuania expanded and took Kyiv in the 1360s, its border with the Horde was around the Vorskla river too.

So the devs drew the most probable border there really well.
 
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To my previous comment, one of the best sources on the topic I managed to find was Yegorov, Historical geography of the Golden Horde in the XIII – XIV centuries.
The book is actually about the borders of the Golden Horde. Pages 47 - 68 are about the borders in the XIV century.

To sum up:
  • The Mongols preferred to stay and rule in the steppe, while more forested areas were controlled by the Ruthenian and Russian duchies.
  • Almost always there was a 'buffer zone' between them.
  • Mongolian presence in the forested areas was occasional, 'solving problems' with armies.
And this is a map for the beginning of the XIV century and it shows that the devs made quite a good map:
Yegorov.png
 
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Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde). I had a source that had some names, but I lost it so I've simply marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369


What about Shehr al-Djedid
 
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Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde). I had a source that had some names, but I lost it so I've simply marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369


This part is really wrong, it should belong to Kyiv, as the devs have in their maps:

View attachment 1245542

I posted earlier a post about the princes of Putyvl that ruled in Kyiv in the beginning of the XIV century and overall Kyiv-Putyvl connection.

In general, the Golden Horde had more or less direct control over the steppe territories, while Ruhenian and Russian tributary duchies in more forested areas were controlled via baskaks who collected tributary.

The Vorskla river had always made a natural border between the nomads and settled Rus population since the Kyivan Rus times because it separated the steppe from the forested steppe natural zones.
And it was valid for the Golden Horde border too, I read a source that wrote about that last week actually (I'll post in the next post after this).

This is also supported by the fact that when Lithuania expanded and took Kyiv in the 1360s, its border with the Horde was around the Vorskla river too.

So the devs drew the most probable border there really well.
Perhaps the question mark near Kyiv is this
 
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Some updates to my previous map:
  • Decided to go with the traditional intepretation of the Turkic/Mongolic colours for the cardinal directions, applied to the hordes
  • Expanded on the vassals in the Bulgar ulus + added the Kingdom of Mukhsha
  • Included the new vassals in Moldavia + the vassal of the Despotate of Saqčï in northern Dobruja
  • I was able to gleam from a couple sources on the existence of four other ulus' in the West under the Batu Ulus (White Horde). I had a source that had some names, but I lost it so I've simply marked them with four red question marks

View attachment 1245368

Locations:

View attachment 1245369


If you can't find a name for one of them, then you can call it Oros-ulus. In the Russian information field, this name is sometimes used to refer to Slavs in the Golden Horde.
 
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I would like to suggest a better Areas setup in the region that will be more accurate and can mitigate some issues.
If provinces mostly look like a more 'technical' thing, representing a group of locations, then areas represent real historical and cultural regions that players are familiar with (like Normandy, Moravia, Lombardy, Asturia etc.).
Ukraine/East-West Dnipro/Left-Right Bank areas discussions and inconsistency (already renamed back and forth in different maps)
  • This way the reduced Ukraine area can be united with the historical Pereyaslav lands on the other side of the Dnipro and make a perfect Ukraine area.
  • Actually this was exactly around the times when this word started to designate the lands around Kyiv and Pereyaslav.

Following my suggestion on areas in Ruthenia, here I just post the updated suggestion for areas (unifying Kyivan and Pereyaslav lands on both sides of the Dnipro into one area), relevant to this TM post:

Suggested areas
Original areas
AR full new 1.png
AR world.png

For reference, it corresponds to what was considered as 'Kyivan Land' and the Duchy of Kyiv in the XIV -XV centuries in Lithuania (1362 – 1394 and 1440 – 1471, and till 1492 as Kyivan Voievodship).
The red line is a suggested Ukraine area for the game:
KyivanLand.png
 
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Following my suggestion on areas in Ruthenia, here I just post the updated suggestion for areas (unifying Kyivan and Pereyaslav lands on both sides of the Dnipro into one area), relevant to this TM post:

Suggested areas
Original areas
View attachment 1251275View attachment 1251276

For reference, it corresponds to what was considered as 'Kyivan Land' and the Duchy of Kyiv in the XIV -XV centuries in Lithuania (1362 – 1394 and 1440 – 1471, and till 1492 as Kyivan Voievodship).
The red line is a suggested Ukraine area for the game:
View attachment 1251277
With all due respect, I feel Yedisan should only include the region that was historically called that
1738841895769.png
1738841794602.png
1738841951744.jpeg


Perhaps Chaplynka and Melitopol provinces should be joined with Crimea to form Taurida? And Posad can join Zaporizhzhia?
1738842614272.jpeg
1738842759721.png


But I do see that all of that will technically mirror Russian empire divisions, And my proposal for following them was downvoted to hell((
Here Yedisan (Odessa governate) also has Yelanets province
1738842964908.png


it also aligns with this area of Lithuania
1738845207664.png
 
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With all due respect, I feel Yedisan should only include the region that was historically called that
I would not oppose it, also a valid suggestion. Your division is more ‘political’, my one is more ‘geographical’. And a minor issue – your Yedisan looks quite small to me, that was the main reason I extended it a bit over the Dnipro.
But now they have Yedisan almost to Mariupol that looks definitely wrong.

So Black Sea / Azov shore division (with a really minor adjustment) just made more sense to me because in Ukraine it’s Причорноморʼя/Приазовʼя.
And I just prefer Crimea being a separate area.

Another neutral option (maybe even my preference) could be actually The Pontic Steppe area instead of Yedisan. And for the whole region – The Steppes (according to the TM name).
Wild fields is also a possible option.
 
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