Tinto Flavour #6 - 14th of February 2025 - Bohemia

[matfer13]

Man, I can't explain why but for some reason today I feel quite hungry...

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

Hey, Henry's come to see us!

 

[Palando]

Here are some of my suggestions for Bohemia which could also be considered:

1) Works of Art:

• Záviš's Cross (13th century, third most precious Bohemian treasure)
• Cycle of the Master of Vyšší Brod (14th century)
• Charles Bridge (1357)
• Infant Jesus of Prague (1556, one of the most famous miraculous images of the infant Jesus)
• Holy Trinity Column (Olomouc)
• Basilica of Saints Cyril and Methodius (Velehrad, most important pilgrimage site)

2) Buildings:

• Hradčany
• Karlstejn Castle
• Krumlov Castle

3) Advances:

• Bergordnung
• The Golden Steig (The Golden Steig ws the most important trade route between the Alpine salt mines and Bohemia. The route started in Passau, where the salt was transported to on the Danube, and led to Prachatice.)
• Schwarzenberg Canal (This alluvial canal connected the Bohemian Forest with the river called Große Mühl, thus creating a connection to Vienna, where the wood could be sold more profitable.)

4) Government Reforms:

• Crown of St Wenceslaus (after the crown itself has been commissioned; this would be an elective monarchy whenever there is no legitimate heir, as e.g. as there were no doubts in the case of the Přemyslid or Luxembourg dynasty. There could also be an event in case there is an 'unworthy' wearer of the Crown (bad stats, traits, ...), as legend has it that he or she would die soon after.)
• Renewed Land Constitution (absolutism after the 30YW)

5) Great Persons:

• Peter Parler
• Jan Rokycana (Utraquist Hussite)
• Benedikt Rejt
• Jiří Melantrich z Aventina
• John Amos Comenius (Utraquist Hussite)
• Kryštof Harant
• Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer
• Josef Dobrovský
• Jakub Jan Ryba
• Franz Josef von Gerstner

6) Events:

• Second Defenestration of Prague (1483, not to be confused with the Third Defenestration which started the 30YW)
• Religious Peace of Kutná Hora (1485, followup of the previous Event, could be an estate privilege)
• Cyril and Methodius (On the 9th of March, the Apostles of the Slavs, Cyril and Methodius, are celebrated, who have spread Christianity into Bohemia and the rest of Greater Moravia. They also introduced the oldest Slavic alphabet, the Glagolitic script. This day is celebrated with processions and holy masses, with the festivities being bigger in Moravia.)
• Goldmakers (of Rudolf II)
• Golem of Prague (famous myth about a Jewish rabbi)
• Decorate the Charles Bridge (the statues which can be seen today were put in place only in the 18th century)
• Uniting the Cities of Prague (18th century, Prague consists not only out of one city but four: the Staré Město (Old Town), the Malá Strana (Lesser Town) located at the left side of the river Vltava, the Hradčany (Castle District) and the Nové Město founded by Emperor Charles IV. All four of them had their own muncipality.)
• King Jiří's Confederation of Christian Monarchs (he tried to unite all Christian monarchs against heathens but this failed - not only because of him being the only heretic in Western and Central Europe)

7) Estate Privileges:

• Religious Peace of Kutná Hora (see above, burghers)
• Dominium Rosenbergicum (nobles, The of Rosenbergs were the most influential noble family within the Kingdom of Bohemia. Because of their vast territorial possessions, the Dominium Rosenbergicum rigthfuly could be described as a kingdom within a kingdom.)
• The Municipal Constitution of King Vladislav (nobles, reduces burghers)
• Free Bohemian High Officials (nobles, also valid for Moravia but with other offices, e.g. supremus Regni Bohemiae burgravius, supremus magister curiae, supremus marchalcus, iudex Bohemiae, camerarius supremus, supremus cancellarius regni Bohemiae, …)

8) Disasters:
Second Hussite War (in addition to the first one; The Second Hussite War (1467-1478), also called Bohemian-Hungarian War as Matthias Corvinus joined the war in 1468, was sparked by the uprising of the Confederacy of Zelená Hora. Jiří z Poděbrad's refusal of the Church demands to suppress the Hussite faith, had made the papal faction in Bohemia grow embittered. After Pope Paul II had declared him as a heretic and deposed him from the Bohemian throne, the papal faction declared him unfit on a meeting in Zelená Hora. Together with like-minded nobles in Silesia and, after being urged, the bishop of Olomouc they began an open revolt to Jiří's rule. They also looked for foreign allies, especially in the east in Hungary, and promised them the Crown of St Wenceslaus.)

9) Hussitism:
Let me share some comments on Hussitism which actually had three branches: Utraquism, Taborites (radicals) and Orebites (Jan Žižka allied with the Sirotci). After the Battle of Lipany, only the former remained and were able to build a church structure. This is why I only want to share some comments on them, as it is hard to tell how a Taborite or Orebite state would work in the long run.

So the Catholic interpretation of the Compactates of Basel was that the Utraquists were granted a "license" to practise the communion under both kinds, and that the communion under both kinds wasn't superior to the communion under one kind. However, the Utraquist perspective was the other way round, i.e. that solely the communion under both kinds is leading to salvation and that the communion under one kind shall only be accepted there where the former wasn't practised before. This was viewed by the Utraquists as a settlement until an ultimate solution was found (nothing less than allowing the communion under both kinds in the whole Christian world).
The Imperial Compactates of Sigismund caused massive protest by the Curia, as Sigismund's compactates basically reinforced the Utraquist church as the Bohemian state church. I want to give an exampled here: the obbligation to the chalice was weigthed far stronger than the tolerance towards Catholics. The Imperial Compactates were the foundation for a state church in contrast to for example Waldensians.

Let's now talk about the Utraquist ecclesiology which is a bit complex causing confusion and the misconception that they were just Catholics. First of all, it should be mentioned that in the Compactates of Basel the Utraquists promised obedience to the Catholic church based on the "sola scriptura" principle (only when they can be proven to be wrong by the bible). In their view only a pure, evangelical and poor church could call for obedience, which according to them the Catholic church back then didn't satisfy this condition, thus invalidating this article in the real world. Additionally, there was a separation between Utraquists and Catholics in the Kingdom of Bohemia, which can be found in these very compactates. The Imperial Compactes went one step further and granted the Utraquists a self-administration, the sole right to appoint priests and bishops as well as absolute jurisdiction for themselves (practically, exercised by the Utraquist administrator and a consistory). An example would be that the Utraquists discarded Vladislav II's proposal to approve the Religious Peace of Kutná Hora by the Pope by denying the Pope a universal jurisdiction.

Another convoluted thing was that the Utraquists adhered to the ordination of priests by a bishop. As there were no Utraquist bishops (although, passages about this can be found in the Compactates), the only possibility were Catholic bishops. The reason wasn't that the Utraquists submitted to Rome, but the Utraquist concept of a timely and spatially universal church, thus the importance of the apostolic succession. Here, the hope that the Catholic (or maybe even the Orthodox, as they sent a delegation to Constantinopolis to Exchange Ordination for military aid) church might return to the right way, to the time of the Early Christianity. As the years turned by, this became a problem as there were no longer enough priests. The first approach was to convince a few bishops to ordain Utraquist priests (in opposition to the Pope). However, during the years of 1510s the view that ordination isn't a sacrament and only Holy Communion and baptism are sacraments got more and more traction. In 1520, the latter views became predominant in the Utraquist consistory and were codified 4 years later in 1524 (so called Candlemas Articles).

Another interesting aspect of Utraquism is how it changed and was incorporated into the Bohemian society. Compared to Lutheranism, the most remarkable difference is that the estates (burghers, knights and to a lesser extent the higher nobility) were the "defender of the Utraquist faith" against the ruler of a territory, whereas, in the case of Protestantism the ruler of a territory was the "defender". Hereby, the clergy was not only poor with respect to wealth but also with respect to its political power. The political power was held by the higher nobility, the knights and the burghers (in form of the royal cities) only, whilst these three estates were electing the administrator of the Utraquist church and the Utraquist consistory (8 priests + 4 universitarians); the nobles also elected the three "defenders". This lead to consensus-building becoming the maxim of the Utraquist estates, thus offices would've been counterproductive and therefore weren't realised/fostered.


Lastly, I want to talk a bit about the attempts for a church union in more detail. When the Compactates of Basel were formulated, there can be found a theme for a close relationship between Utraquists and Catholics in the text, however the seperation between Utraquists and Catholics within Bohemia contradicted every convergence between those two groups. During the years leading up to 1462, the Utraquist administrator Jan Rokycana and King Jiří were trying to improve their foreign reputation by also persecuting heretics. Yet, this was doomed to fail, because the Papacy would then as well as later demand the maximum (restitution of former church property, no communio sub utraque specie, …).King Jiří being excommunicated and the the Second Hussite War taking place make this failure apparent. Thereafter, Utraquism again focused on itself, i.e. heretics in form of the Bohemian Brethern were persecuted and the clergy polemicised against any form of heresy. This changed around 1490, when Rome became the favourite enemy. Though, around 1500 there were two tries for a church union by "moderate" Utraquists, but these failed again because of the aforementioned reasons. This failure led to a growth of the opposition against the Papacy, cluminating into a new reformatory wave during the 1510s (this movement is sometimes called Neo-Utraquism).

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

Is this DD the real life, though? Or is it just fantasy?

 

[bokorthedust]

Perfect birthday gift for Sigismund.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Henry has come to see us!

 

[Goldchruzi]

Jan Hus knew the truth!

Also that is one young looking 115-year old pope. Benny Dozen barely looks a day over 50!

 

[GenericUsername1444]

we will have the HRE Tinto Maps Feedback on Monday, and next Friday’s Tinto Flavour country will be Bavaria. Cheers!

Finally! The moment we've all been waiting for!

 

[Roger Corominas]

Here are some of my suggestions for Bohemia which could also be considered:

1) Works of Art:
- Záviš's Cross (13th century, third most precious Bohemian treasure)
- Cycle of the Master of Vyšší Brod (14th century)
- Charles Bridge (1357)
- Infant Jesus of Prague (1556, one of the most famous miraculous images of the infant Jesus)
- Holy Trinity Column (Olomouc)
- Basilica of Saints Cyril and Methodius (Velehrad, most important pilgrimage site)

2) Buildings:
- Hradčany
- Karlstejn Castle
- Krumlov Castle

3) Advances:
- Bergordnung
- The Golden Steig (The Golden Steig ws the most important trade route between the Alpine salt mines and Bohemia. The route started in Passau, where the salt was transported to on the Danube, and led to Prachatice.)
- Schwarzenberg Canal (This alluvial canal connected the Bohemian Forest with the river called Große Mühl, thus creating a connection to Vienna, where the wood could be sold more profitable.)

4) Government Reforms:
- Crown of St Wenceslaus (after the crown itself has been commissioned; this would be an elective monarchy whenever there is no legitimate heir, as e.g. as there were no doubts in the case of the Přemyslid or Luxembourg dynasty. There could also be an event in case there is an 'unworthy' wearer of the Crown (bad stats, traits, ...), as legend has it that he or she would die soon after.)
- Renewed Land Constitution (absolutism after the 30YW)

5) Great Persons:
- Peter Parler
- Jan Rokycana (Utraquist Hussite)
- Benedikt Rejt
- Jiří Melantrich z Aventina
- John Amos Comenius (Utraquist Hussite)
- Kryštof Harant
- Kilian Ignaz Dientzenhofer
- Josef Dobrovský
- Jakub Jan Ryba
- Franz Josef von Gerstner

6) Events:
- Second Defenestration of Prague (1483, not to be confused with the Third Defenestration which started the 30YW)
- Religious Peace of Kutná Hora (1485, followup of the previous Event, could be an estate privilege)
- Cyril and Methodius (On the 9th of March, the Apostles of the Slavs, Cyril and Methodius, are celebrated, who have spread Christianity into Bohemia and the rest of Greater Moravia. They also introduced the oldest Slavic alphabet, the Glagolitic script. This day is celebrated with processions and holy masses, with the festivities being bigger in Moravia.)
- Goldmakers (of Rudolf II)
- Golem of Prague (famous myth about a Jewish rabbi)
- Decorate the Charles Bridge (the statues which can be seen today were put in place only in the 18th century)
- Uniting the Cities of Prague (18th century, Prague consists not only out of one city but four: the Staré Město (Old Town), the Malá Strana (Lesser Town) located at the left side of the river Vltava, the Hradčany (Castle District) and the Nové Město founded by Emperor Charles IV. All four of them had their own muncipality.)
- King Jiří's Confederation of Christian Monarchs (he tried to unite all Christian monarchs against heathens but this failed - not only because of him being the only heretic in Western and Central Europe)

7) Estate Privileges:
- Religious Peace of Kutná Hora (see above, burghers)
- Dominium Rosenbergicum (nobles, The of Rosenbergs were the most influential noble family within the Kingdom of Bohemia. Because of their vast territorial possessions, the Dominium Rosenbergicum rigthfuly could be described as a kingdom within a kingdom.)
- The Municipal Constitution of King Vladislav (nobles, reduces burghers)
- Free Bohemian High Officials (nobles, also valid for Moravia but with other offices, e.g. supremus Regni Bohemiae burgravius, supremus magister curiae, supremus marchalcus, iudex Bohemiae, camerarius supremus, supremus cancellarius regni Bohemiae, …)

8) Disasters:
- Second Hussite War (in addition to the first one; The Second Hussite War (1467-1478), also called Bohemian-Hungarian War as Matthias Corvinus joined the war in 1468, was sparked by the uprising of the Confederacy of Zelená Hora. Jiří z Poděbrad's refusal of the Church demands to suppress the Hussite faith, had made the papal faction in Bohemia grow embittered. After Pope Paul II had declared him as a heretic and deposed him from the Bohemian throne, the papal faction declared him unfit on a meeting in Zelená Hora. Together with like-minded nobles in Silesia and, after being urged, the bishop of Olomouc they began an open revolt to Jiří's rule. They also looked for foreign allies, especially in the east in Hungary, and promised them the Crown of St Wenceslaus.)

9) Hussitism:
Let me share some comments on Hussitism which actually had three branches: Utraquism, Taborites (radicals) and Orebites (Jan Žižka allied with the Sirotci). After the Battle of Lipany, only the former remained and were able to build a church structure. This is why I only want to share some comments on them, as it is hard to tell how a Taborite or Orebite state would work in the long run.

So the Catholic interpretation of the Compactates of Basel was that the Utraquists were granted a "license" to practise the communion under both kinds, and that the communion under both kinds wasn't superior to the communion under one kind. However, the Utraquist perspective was the other way round, i.e. that solely the communion under both kinds is leading to salvation and that the communion under one kind shall only be accepted there where the former wasn't practised before. This was viewed by the Utraquists as a settlement until an ultimate solution was found (nothing less than allowing the communion under both kinds in the whole Christian world).
The Imperial Compactates of Sigismund caused massive protest by the Curia, as Sigismund's compactates basically reinforced the Utraquist church as the Bohemian state church. I want to give an exampled here: the obbligation to the chalice was weigthed far stronger than the tolerance towards Catholics. The Imperial Compactates were the foundation for a state church in contrast to for example Waldensians.

Let's now talk about the Utraquist ecclesiology which is a bit complex causing confusion and the misconception that they were just Catholics. First of all, it should be mentioned that in the Compactates of Basel the Utraquists promised obedience to the Catholic church based on the "sola scriptura" principle (only when they can be proven to be wrong by the bible). In their view only a pure, evangelical and poor church could call for obedience, which according to them the Catholic church back then didn't satisfy this condition, thus invalidating this article in the real world. Additionally, there was a separation between Utraquists and Catholics in the Kingdom of Bohemia, which can be found in these very compactates. The Imperial Compactes went one step further and granted the Utraquists a self-administration, the sole right to appoint priests and bishops as well as absolute jurisdiction for themselves (practically, exercised by the Utraquist administrator and a consistory). An example would be that the Utraquists discarded Vladislav II's proposal to approve the Religious Peace of Kutná Hora by the Pope by denying the Pope a universal jurisdiction.

Another convoluted thing was that the Utraquists adhered to the ordination of priests by a bishop. As there were no Utraquist bishops (although, passages about this can be found in the Compactates), the only possibility were Catholic bishops. The reason wasn't that the Utraquists submitted to Rome, but the Utraquist concept of a timely and spatially universal church, thus the importance of the apostolic succession. Here, the hope that the Catholic (or maybe even the Orthodox, as they sent a delegation to Constantinopolis to Exchange Ordination for military aid) church might return to the right way, to the time of the Early Christianity. As the years turned by, this became a problem as there were no longer enough priests. The first approach was to convince a few bishops to ordain Utraquist priests (in opposition to the Pope). However, during the years of 1510s the view that ordination isn't a sacrament and only Holy Communion and baptism are sacraments got more and more traction. In 1520, the latter views became predominant in the Utraquist consistory and were codified 4 years later in 1524 (so called Candlemas Articles).

Another interesting aspect of Utraquism is how it changed and was incorporated into the Bohemian society. Compared to Lutheranism, the most remarkable difference is that the estates (burghers, knights and to a lesser extent the higher nobility) were the "defender of the Utraquist faith" against the ruler of a territory, whereas, in the case of Protestantism the ruler of a territory was the "defender". Hereby, the clergy was not only poor with respect to wealth but also with respect to its political power. The political power was held by the higher nobility, the knights and the burghers (in form of the royal cities) only, whilst these three estates were electing the administrator of the Utraquist church and the Utraquist consistory (8 priests + 4 universitarians); the nobles also elected the three "defenders". This lead to consensus-building becoming the maxim of the Utraquist estates, thus offices would've been counterproductive and therefore weren't realised/fostered.


Lastly, I want to talk a bit about the attempts for a church union in more detail. When the Compactates of Basel were formulated, there can be found a theme for a close relationship between Utraquists and Catholics in the text, however the seperation between Utraquists and Catholics within Bohemia contradicted every convergence between those two groups. During the years leading up to 1462, the Utraquist administrator Jan Rokycana and King Jiří were trying to improve their foreign reputation by also persecuting heretics. Yet, this was doomed to fail, because the Papacy would then as well as later demand the maximum (restitution of former church property, no communio sub utraque specie, …).King Jiří being excommunicated and the the Second Hussite War taking place make this failure apparent. Thereafter, Utraquism again focused on itself, i.e. heretics in form of the Bohemian Brethern were persecuted and the clergy polemicised against any form of heresy. This changed around 1490, when Rome became the favourite enemy. Though, around 1500 there were two tries for a church union by "moderate" Utraquists, but these failed again because of the aforementioned reasons. This failure led to a growth of the opposition against the Papacy, cluminating into a new reformatory wave during the 1510s (this movement is sometimes called Neo-Utraquism).

Some of the things here are already in game too (keep in mind we are not showing absolutely everything in these threads). We can keep notes on the rest to see what we can do with them. Thank you.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

CHARLES TEH FOURTH KING OF BOHEMIA AND HREMPEROR HAD A LONG AND SUCCESSFULL REIGN

 

[Roger Corominas]

Is this DD the real life, though? Or is it just fantasy?

It's truly a rhapsody of emotions.

 

[THERMONUCLEARBOMB]

Battle of Grunwald in eu5?????

 

[Thrudgelmir2333]

It's truly a rhapsody of emotions.

This game will trully help me escape from reality, then.

I will miss looking up to the sky and see it, though.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

and all the countries involved in the ongoing Teuton-Polish War

honestly im pretty hoping that this Teutonic Polish War wont be in the final game as it's ahistorical

 

[Birchinjaro]

Will Bohemia have some Formables inspired by alt-history which are still possible and not fantasy?Like the Elbian Confederation if it decides to expand into Germany

 

[Roger Corominas]

Jan Hus knew the truth!

Also that is one young looking 115-year old pope. Benny Dozen barely looks a day over 50!

Things happen when you play with the console to get the screenshots

 

[KitChaos]

funny hat
good tinto flavor

 

[GenericUsername1444]

What a beautiful diplomatic map mode. Just look at the Germany post-rework. I can't wait to play this game already.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Will Bohemia have some Formables inspired by alt-history which are still possible and not fantasy?Like the Elbian Confederation if it decides to expand into Germany

Not currently.