I am worried the turkic tribes will get shafted in the Steppe dlc in favor of the Mongols

[Koppel235]

What the title says.Going from what I saw in the dev diary about the Steppes dlc was mostly focused in the Mongols,especially the 1179 start.I am worried the Turkic tribes of the steppes wont receive a lot of unique content and reworks,just like the other start dates apart from the 867 start date were shafted in the Legacy of Persia one.For example the Seljuks didnt receive any work.Same thing I fear will happen in the Steppes dlc,which will be focused only on the Mongols and not on other steppe tribes like the Karakhanids/Karluks,Khazars,Oghuz Yabgu,Yenisei Kirghiz etc.And they do need a lot of rework.

 

[n0madd]

I posted about it recently, but it was ignored. My main point was that if they focus on Mongols, then they should incorporate Pax Mongolica, and then it would be decent DLC. Later, the Turkic flavour can be added separately, or if Pax Mongolica is not there, then at least they could do something with Turks.

Problem:
Though there is (will be ) more to come to Nomad DLC, one line that made me sceptical is the way DD opened the first line in Mongolian, which might give a little cue about the focus of DLC (god forbid, there is nothing wrong with Mongolian folk). The foundation for nomads is excellent. However, just like in Legends of the Dead, we might get pure mechanics or one-sided history for Mongols that not many people do play in reality 1178 unless there would be more mechanics for heredity like Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, Chagatai, and Yuan, which I doubt given no China or new bookmark for Golden Horde.

History:

If we focus more on Mongols, then we remove two dates (867 and 1066) because Mongols were not in the world arena until 1200. We don't have evidence of Avars's origin, but we do about Xiognu/Huns, and they were Turkic. Therefore, 867 is the year of emptiness in the aftermath of the second Turkic Khanate. 867 and 1066 should focus more on Uralic and Turkic people, the Seljuk's invasion of Persia and the Byzantine Empire (which was one of the significant reasons for the first crusade), Khazar-Abbasid tensions, Kirghiz Khanate, Uighur Khanate, and Cumans with Rus and Hungary afterwards, Pechenegs on Balkans, Magyars, Chorni Klobuky serving Rus, Kimek-Cuman struggle which all reflected the course of history—also their relationship with Iranian folks. We cannot cover such a vast scope, but combining Mongols and Turks in one DLC downplays it.

Conclusion:

Ultimately, we get popular history about Timujin and core mechanics for nomads resembling Legends of the Dead.
Suppose we don't get Pax Mongolica with Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, Yuan, Chagatai Ulus's OR Turkic history. Then we lose DLC; the first seems unplausable to make without the Golden Horde date, which makes me think we will not get mechanics for Uluses, nor do we get China and Japan. The second is not plausible because screenshots have Mongolic names within Yurts, and the introduction of DD was in Mongolic (call me paranoid, but it's an assumption). Turkic people are not mentioned at all, so I don't believe we will get anything significant in reflecting history apart from Timujin, but as the way these people lived, yes.

 

[aegeann13]

We'll have to wait for more dev diaries to make more accurate assumptions, especially a nomadic flavor dd. This was at a very early stage and didn't give much to theorise on. For now, however, I also fear that the Turks will look and feel like an extension to the Mongolic world. I look forward to seeing the dev diary for nomadic flavor. After seeing the new gameplay mechanics, clothing assets and dna overhauls I can finally relax or get even more worried.

If a Steppe DLC has to focus on one component more than others it should be Turks, not Mongols. Turkic peoples were the true masters of the steppes for more than a thousand years. As someone commented under the original DD, it'd be a missed opportunity to not make a Turkic overhaul in this DLC. They missed this chance with "The Legacy of Persia", Seljuks and Rûm Turks still feel very bland and ahistorical.

 

[Koppel235]

I posted about it recently, but it was ignored. My main point was that if they focus on Mongols, then they should incorporate Pax Mongolica, and then it would be decent DLC. Later, the Turkic flavour can be added separately, or if Pax Mongolica is not there, then at least they could do something with Turks.

Same,I did post a comment with some suggestions but was also ignored.Case in point my thread about Turks still wearing Mongol clothing.Just to add though the Avars likely were remnants of the Rouran Khaganate which were displaced by the Ashina Gokturks and fled west.

 

[Portoop]

I posted about it recently, but it was ignored. My main point was that if they focus on Mongols, then they should incorporate Pax Mongolica, and then it would be decent DLC. Later, the Turkic flavour can be added separately, or if Pax Mongolica is not there, then at least they could do something with Turks.

You are right, Before 1200, the Mongols did not even have a decent state, except for the Rourans, and mostly the Turks dominated the region. The Mongols were also small in population, as we can see with the Turkification of the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate. But as a nomadic culture, the Mongols are portrayed as dominant, which is very funny.

 

[Koppel235]

You are right, Before 1200, the Mongols did not even have a decent state, except for the Rourans, and mostly the Turks dominated the region. The Mongols were also small in population, as we can see with the Turkification of the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate. But as a nomadic culture, the Mongols are portrayed as dominant, which is very funny.

Also to add some mongolic tribes that were turkic actually like the Naiman,the Keraites and the Tatars still have mongolic culture and language now in the game.

 

[n0madd]

Same,I did post a comment with some suggestions but was also ignored.Case in point my thread about Turks still wearing Mongol clothing.Just to add though the Avars likely were remnants of the Rouran Khaganate which were displaced by the Ashina Gokturks and fled west.

It's not clear since the titles they had were Turkic in origin. Still, Avars do not have a unified version among historians, unlike Xiognu/Huns, who have significantly more support for Turkic ancestry. If Avars were Turkic, then it gives even more reason to focus on Turks rather than Mongols pre-1200.

 

[Desseabar]

To be fair, they said there will be starting tags in 1066 as well, which means the content won't be exclusively focused on Mongols.

If I look at it from a dev perspective, though, focusing on Mongols makes sense: what sells more, Mongol DLC or Magyar/Seljuk DLC? I think it's fine to allocate the focus towards Mongols.

 

[n0madd]

To be fair, they said there will be starting tags in 1066 as well, which means the content won't be exclusively focused on Mongols.

If I look at it from a dev perspective, though, focusing on Mongols makes sense: what sells more, Mongol DLC or Magyar/Seljuk DLC? I think it's fine to allocate the focus towards Mongols.

No one opposes Mongols; the point is if you want to make Mongols do it properly, not like Legend of the Dead with just foundational mechanics. There is no new date for Uluses, so if anyone would like to play at Black Plague with Golden Horde, Chagatai, or Yuan (China is not coming), they will not get it. Pax Mongolica is tied highly with trading routes and administration, where they would have also announced a semi-nomadic style. Still, it is not coming because they already mentioned that trading will come in 2026.

In DD, they mentioned Paiza, which grants a free pass within the Mongol Empire; this aspect is purely a continuation of adventurers (apart from traders), I bet Marco Polo is coming, etc (this is not a novelty, which already was in RtP). The practice showed that when you add foundational mechanics + flavour into it, like in Roads to Power, then you get great DLC. Our foundation is purely nomadic, which is more sound pre-1200 AD, that is why they would have gotten more success if they focused on Turks, it's simple logic.

Basically, they give us mechanics for one folk (Turks as majority in 2 dates) but flavour for another (Mongols 1 date), which is an issue. However, we will see what they will present to us in future DDs.

 

[SpiritRiven]

I dont see why they should miss the opportunity to do Turks and Mongols in the same DLC.

Doesnt make much sense to me

 

[ZéMalta]

The dev diary revealing the upcoming content is deep in proggress still, and while it seems definite that Mongols are getting the cultural focus, Turkics won't be ignored in my understanding. Only if you wanted them to focus in two culture roots at the same time in one package, which I don't think has been the model.

But I'm hoping that at least somethings culturally will be added to them, even if I'm also pretty okay with waiting for more Turkic stuff in a wider pack for trade routes. They certainly deserve focused content of their own.

 

[Koppel235]

The dev diary revealing the upcoming content is deep in proggress still, and while it seems definite that Mongols are getting the cultural focus, Turkics won't be ignored in my understanding. Only if you wanted them to focus in two culture roots at the same time in one package, which I don't think has been the model.

But I'm hoping that at least somethings culturally will be added to them, even if I'm also pretty okay with waiting for more Turkic stuff in a wider pack for trade routes. They certainly deserve focused content of their own.

If the Turks dont get content in the Steppes,dont expect them to have content in other expansion packs.

 

[ray243]

I feel like PDX is building mechanics based on the most pop-history understanding of various cultures and polities, in this case equating nomads = Mongols. Yes, there is a need for abstraction, but when the abstraction is based on the most meme/pop-history understanding of history...

 

[Lazarenko]

Turkic nomads must be included in this DLC. How could they not? Heck, even the ancient Chinese remember the 'red haired, green eyed men' that were the Turks along their borders. You may disagree that the Mongols had the largest impact on sedentary civilizations historically, but we can all agree with the fact that Turkic nomads dwelt along the Eurasian steppes far longer than the Mongols. I'd be very disappointed if Paradox excluded the Turkic cultures and put nomads under a 'Mongol stamp.' There was a lot of diversity on the steppes and players need to see just how layered it was.

 

[Lazarenko]

I'll keep it short. Which Turkic nomads matter enough to have specific content in this game? The Nomad DLC is literally opening an entire other world in CK3, so it makes sense that the nomadic world needs to be filled with the Turkic nomads who had an impact on the Eurasian steppes from the 9th to the 15th century. I'm pretty sure Mongols are going to be there, because really good reasons, so you can exclude them. Besides, they weren't Turkic. Please don't list every Turkic nomad you can think of, only the ones who really made a mark on the steppes or on the world. Рақмет сізге.

Addition: Oi, I thought I'd made a massive mess by posting here as well as a new thread. Glad to see the moderator merged it. Whew!

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Threads merged.

 

[Koppel235]

I'll keep it short. Which Turkic nomads matter enough to have specific content in this game? The Nomad DLC is literally opening an entire other world in CK3, so it makes sense that the nomadic world needs to be filled with the Turkic nomads who had an impact on the Eurasian steppes from the 9th to the 15th century. I'm pretty sure Mongols are going to be there, because really good reasons, so you can exclude them. Besides, they weren't Turkic. Please don't list every Turkic nomad you can think of, only the ones who really made a mark on the steppes or on the world. Рақмет сізге.

To sum it up:

1. Karluk Yabgus/Karakhanids.Their kings claimed Ashina heritage,were the only ones having the Khagan title and had the most influential state in the Transoxiana,the Karakhanids
2. The Oghuz Yabgu il.The Oghuz tribes were really influential in the steppe and many served progenitors of turkic dynasties like the Seljuks,served as mercenaries in many militaries
3. The Khazars.
4. The Kimek
5. The Pechenegs
6. The Cuman/Kipchaks

Also some tribes in Mongolia were turkic,like:

• The Naiman
• The Keraites
• The Tatar confederation

Also in the 1178 start date the Qara Khitai were a very big player in the Transoxiana area,but they were Khitan.

I wont mention the Uyghurs because they were sinicized and became sedentary in the later start dates.

 

[peteoj]

Man i just hope they don't leave the Anatolian seljuks weak and pathetic like they are now, it's weird how they made a byzantine dlc and didn't even vaguely think of buffing them in anyway. Let's hope they fixed that in the nomad focused dlc but paradox seems to love basing things on pop history and the most stereotypical types of peoples I.e their viking dlc so I'm not really holding up much hope for turks to receive any improvements.

 

[Delterius]

I'll keep it short. Which Turkic nomads matter enough to have specific content in this game?

Well, if all you consider are the Seljuks / Oghuz then you have the trigger for the titular Crusades. Besides, CK2 and 3 already have their big turkic invaders with the Ghaznavids, Seljuks and the (mostly turks and turkified mongol) Timurids. That is as good a start as any, even as it undersells things. The turkic component in the west asian world can't be overstated, as most of that region from islamic northern india to egypt was dominated by dynasties born from central asian slave soldiers. The mamlukes in egypt were mostly kipchaks, and you have a similar situation with the ghulams in the dehli sultanate - the two powers notable for resisting the mongol empire.

 

[tribnia]

Dual kingship could be a thing for non-Mongol nomads. From Karakhanid style Arslan Khan and Bughra Khan, to Khazar style Sacred Khagan and military shad.