Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[Witcher587]

wrong thread plus caucasian paganism survived slavic didnt

Slavic did survive. E.g. Temple Arcona fell decades later after temple of Uppsala in Sweden fell. But somehow no one seems to be bothered by Norse religion pops in Sweden. Also, unlike temple in Uppsala - Arcona's location and existence was discovered. Slavic paganism survived at least to the 15th century.

Uppsala fell in 1080s (we don't even now precise date)
Arcona, temple of Slavic Rani tribe, fell in 1168, 15 June

 

[samgamer123]

Neither Morea nor Epirus were despotates. They had rulers that were despots, but "despot" was a title granted by Byzantine Emperors. It had nothing to do with the land that they owned.

It's just a title we use retroactively because the Byzantines didn't have any notion of a sovereign state aside from Emperor.

Which, again, is why the title rank system as currently implemented is stupid.

No. the depotate is what they were called, they were duchies in effect. Dukes. the empire of trebizond at the beginning of the game is no longer an empire. its a duchy state. in the game its shown as a county. I believe it should be a duchy, and if it grows enough there should be a formable empire for it or a name change.

 

[Ispil]

No. the depotate is what they were called, they were duchies in effect. Dukes. the empire of trebizond at the beginning of the game is no longer an empire. its a duchy state. in the game its shown as a county. I believe it should be a duchy, and if it grows enough there should be a formable empire for it or a name change.

...did you consider actually clicking the link that you google'd?

Here, I'll do it for you.

Trebizond was not a "despotate" because its emperors were never granted the title of "despot". That would make no sense, after all, given that they saw themselves as emperors.

 

[LordThanatos]

Keep in mind that 'Saffron' is a lump good representing not just saffron, but all luxury spices produced in Europe, the middle-east, and most of Arica.

I'm curious what other spices you believe it should represent aside from the namesake, specifically.

The west African peppers should be peppers and the other oft-cited good in the region is Kola nuts, which the devs have never addressed to my knowledge and which should not (In my opinion) be represented due to only having high importance in their native region - other than for a brief surge in interest well after the timespan of the game, after which point it was replaced by other bittering agents like Caffeine. Other than that, what spices in the region can come close enough in demand or expense to be grouped with Saffron?

All the other locations that we've seen producing the good have been Saffron growing regions after all, and we have no indication what other spices it might already be representing. Most other globally important spices are not in these regions and are represented by the other three goods, Saffron is really a standout in the area and in my opinion seems as though it should/is only representing saffron.

 

[Witcher587]

You really want a Rodnovery religion...

Nope, I want this game to be more real. Paradox added Norse pops around Uppsala where their temple was. The temple of Uppsala fell in 1080s
Meanwhile temple of Arcona fell in 1168, we discovered its location, have written sources about it but for Uppsala we don't have discovered location and its only in legends.
But hey, because Norse are 'cooler' and other are to be laughed at because slavic.

+I don't want Rednovery. It is today's movement, just like 'Romuva' and baltic paganism was named as such in most paradox games.
edit: + ur counter arguments below are laughable, don't spam answearing to me if you're so concerning about the thread. (Not like u understood what I meant in the first place)

 

[samgamer123]

...did you consider actually clicking the link that you google'd?

Here, I'll do it for you.
View attachment 1274559
View attachment 1274560
View attachment 1274562

Trebizond was not a "despotate" because its emperors were never granted the title of "despot". That would make no sense, after all, given that they saw themselves as emperors.

I understand that, they are dukes. despotatoi can be used as independent. but for all intents and purposes they are referred to as depotates even if at the time they didn't use those word till the 14th-15th century. often during period of chaos much isn't written right away, instead it written after the fact meaning the men who wrote about both duchies were long removed from the event of the time. it shouldn't be a county, they are dukes. not empires.

 

[matfer13]

Generally for EU4 too, the area of the world between central asia, india and the middle east is historically called IRAN since more than 1500 years ago. Calling it Persia really is disrespectful, as it is the name of the main but not at all fully dominant ethnicity in this area (azeri being a very prominent one along with kurdish or pasthun). Persia can be used for the pars area, if anything, or not at all. Besides, where are the dialects?

I agree with calling the region Iran but the name Persia is not disrespectful, it's just an exonym, no one in Germany gets offended if you don't call their country Deutchland

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Nope, I want this game to be more real. Paradox added Norse pops around Uppsala where their temple was. The temple of Uppsala fell in 1080s
Meanwhile temple of Arcona fell in 1168, we discovered its location, have written sources about it but for Uppsala we don't have discovered location and its only in legends.
But hey, because Norse are 'cooler' and other are to be laughed at because slavic.

+I don't want Rednovery. It is today's movement, just like 'Romuva' and baltic paganism was named as such in most paradox games.

first of all, wrong thread, second. i dont want norse pops either, both religions are dead at this point(except for some syncretic customs in christianity), third. discovering the site of pagan temple is good and all but its not evidence for slavic paganism, neither the time Arkona fell, also I'm pretty sure 168 years is enough to christianise the isle of Rugen

 

[Gurtannon]

It’s really sad that Basra did not get access to the sea(
Also, Central Asia is not included in this feedback, right?

Yea, It needs the same treatment like Sevilla

 

[pheonicia]

Republic of Sarbadars, yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarba...s had a form,is not universally held, however.

So from that description I assume they start with low Republican tradition and stability.

 

[matfer13]

Agree with the first part, definitely not with the second. What would you even call them? Khorasan and Iraq are not ethnic exclusive names, they are just geographic.

I was referring to mainly to how they are written, like how I think that Hōrasan should be spelled Khorasan since that's the most common way of spelling in english(even though they are both ok), also I think that if there's an english name for areas it should prioritized(Tuscany instead of Toscana, Pomerania instead of Pommern) since the game is in english and there will probably be translation mods in less than month from release

 

[Oglesby]

This is something we track and balance regularly. For instance, here you have the starting Diplomatic Capacity of the Jalayirids:

View attachment 1274476

I think that the maths needs another pass from left Eretnids = 0.39, tool tip is 0.55 = 0.49 + 0.27 + 0.00 - 0.09 - 0.12. I cannot see any rounding that would bring those values into alignment. I would fix this issue before attempting to balance subjects.

 

[nyetflix2]

I was referring to mainly to how they are written, like how I think that Hōrasan should be spelled Khorasan since that's the most common way of spelling in english(even though they are both ok), also I think that if there's an english name for areas it should prioritized(Tuscany instead of Toscana, Pomerania instead of Pommern) since the game is in english and there will probably be translation mods in less than month from release

Ah okay, my mistake. That's fair.

 

[LordThanatos]

I think that the maths needs another pass from left Eretnids = 0.39, tool tip is 0.55 = 0.49 + 0.27 + 0.00 - 0.09 - 0.12. I cannot see any rounding that would bring those values into alignment. I would fix this issue before attempting to balance subjects.

The total of 3.21 for all subjects is also... interesting.

I imagine that the individual totals per subject are all wrong, like the 0.39, but somehow the overall total is pulling from the correct numbers.
(Edit: Ah, missed the scrollbar.)

 

[Oglesby]

I'm curious what other spices you believe it should represent aside from the namesake, specifically.

The west African peppers should be peppers and the other oft-cited good in the region is Kola nuts, which the devs have never addressed to my knowledge and which should not (In my opinion) be represented due to only having high importance in their native region - other than for a brief surge in interest well after the timespan of the game, after which point it was replaced by other bittering agents like Caffeine. Other than that, what spices in the region can come close enough in demand or expense to be grouped with Saffron?

All the other locations producing the good have been Saffron growing regions after all, and we have no indication what other spices it might already be representing. Most other globally important spices are not in these regions and are represented by the other three goods, Saffron is really a standout in the area and in my opinion seems as though it should/is only representing saffron.

I would say this quote indicates that Saffron encompasses other spices of the area, otherwise why would they have been thinking of using generic terms.

First of all, we listened to your arguments and split spices into three, with Saffron for Europe and Middle East, Pepper for Asia, and Chili for the Americas. We talked about naming them with generic terms, but these names we went with felt more immersive.

(Note: Clove was added after this quote as an exception of regional spice groups)

 

[Witcher587]

I understand the Zoroastrian part but in what world is Nestorian anything but pink

In Ante Bellum eu4 mod at least they are. And it's beautiful.

 

[Oglesby]

The total of 3.21 for all subjects is also... interesting.
View attachment 1274576

I imagine that the individual totals per subject are all wrong, like the 0.39, but somehow the overall total is pulling from the correct numbers.

There is a scroll bar there. You can see the 'slide' part at the end of the Eretnids line and not at the Hadhur one where you can see the color change of the bar.

 

[LordThanatos]

I would say this quote indicates that Saffron encompasses other spices of the area, otherwise why would they have been thinking of using generic terms.

(Note: Clove was added after this quote as an exception of regional spice groups)

Thanks, I'm aware of that decision.

For the other goods I know what's meant to be grouped. Pepper includes cardomom, cinnamon and probably ginger among others, Cloves represents cloves and possibly nutmeg if the bandas are represented, Chili represents chili and vanilla. Personally I think some of these groupings are badly done, but they're easy to work out as all the regionally most important spices.

For saffron's growing region there are no other major spices in the region that I am aware of off the top of my head - and certainly none that should be classed with it for rarity or expense. That's why I'm asking for specific spices to be named that people think might be jointly represented along with Saffron in the good, if they believe that other spices are what they believe is happening here.

What exactly is making it so that Iran is only growing a portion of what it should compared to the rest of the region it covers? Chilli hasn't arrived in Iberia, if it could have ever been classed in the same good as saffron, and it even has its own good, so unless the spice nodes have been reduced since the last review, why is Spain producing as much saffron as Khorasan? Why is Italy producing 2/3 the amount?

 

[Ispil]

Also, as for Qandahar, that one's a bit funky. All my sources indicate that it was held by the Neguderi/Qara'unas/whatever in 1337, but Timur did siege it later on. So, having it be held in 1337 and then lost later only to be recaptured is a fine interpretation of the sources.

 

[Paulatim]

I agree with calling the region Iran but the name Persia is not disrespectful, it's just an exonym, no one i Germany gets offended if you don't call their country Deutchland

Maybe, but in a way it is similar to calling india as India, which is again a (persian) exonym. It is ok, but in the game you don't form india, you form either hindustan (muslim exonmym) or baraht (local name more accurate). Iran is not being treated fairly in this regard I feel.