Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[juanen]

This is something we track and balance regularly. For instance, here you have the starting Diplomatic Capacity of the Jalayirids:

View attachment 1274476

As an idea, instead of having the used diplomatic capacity in red, if it's possible make the color change. You want to encourage the player to use it, but make him careful not to go above the limit. Red is not a good color to communicate that. I'd use red only when you reach 80 or 90% and above. The rest, you can use white.
Or maybe you can use the white for the capacity, then have some compination of green, yellow and red for the used capacity

 

[Ispil]

Maybe, but in a way it is similar to calling india as India, which is again a (persian) exonym. It is ok, but in the game you don't form india, you form either hindustan (muslim exonmym) or baraht (local name more accurate). Iran is not being treated fairly in this regard I feel.

The formable for Iran is Iran, at least, and not Persia.

 

[nezztorr]

Great work as always! I'm really hyped to see how the Timurid Empire will work

Unrelated question: Could we support independence movements in other countries in exchange for something? For example, it would be great to support a Corsican nationalist rebellion in exchange for establish a member of my dynasty (or even my king) as the monarch of the new country

 

[matfer13]

Maybe, but in a way it is similar to calling india as India, which is again a (persian) exonym. It is ok, but in the game you don't form india, you form either hindustan (muslim exonmym) or baraht (local name more accurate). Iran is not being treated fairly in this regard I feel.

But the formable is called Iran, haven't you checked the formable TT? Also the region/sub continent is called India so I think they are being pretty fair

 

[Sigismund der Münzreiche]

Yes, we usually consider it and make further fixes (but we don't make another post to avoid getting into an infinite loop).

Fantastic! Thank you for the answer.

 

[Inzano]

Too much brown (counties), we need lordships!

 

[Ahmadmltft]

Maybe, but in a way it is similar to calling india as India, which is again a (persian) exonym. It is ok, but in the game you don't form india, you form either hindustan (muslim exonmym) or baraht (local name more accurate). Iran is not being treated fairly in this regard I feel.

Hindustan is even more of a Persian exonym than India so i'm not sure what your point is

 

[matfer13]

Can we get some plausible/ahistorical formables in the region like Kurdistan or/and Afghanistan?

 

[Paulatim]

But the formable is called Iran, haven't you checked the formable TT? Also the region/sub continent is called India so I think they are being pretty fair

Not really, I prefer to complain without reading or getting informed

 

[Swod]

I think that the redistribution of the Armenian region as a whole was not successful. At the very least, Khachen should return the territories of its main, southern part, where its capital was located.

 

[Atromb]

Can we get some plausible/ahistorical formables like Kurdistan, Afghanistan?

Since the game ends in 1837 afghanistan should be historical.

 

[RouteVenus]

Noticed it’s still listed as the horde of jalayirids, even though last week Ethiopia’s full name was the “Ethiopian empire.” Have you just not updated them to use a suffix instead or is it something else

 

[Swod]

I want the Armenian region to be properly represented, but currently the region is tragically represented.
What needs to be improved:

1- The Zakarid Principality does not control its capital Ani.
- This country should be called Ani.
2 - Location Amberd Should be under the control of the Vachutian dynasty.
The country should be called Amberd.

Vachutians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3 - The Tsar country should be given control of the land around Lake Sevan
The dynasty ruling the country is the Dopian
4 - The Principality of Khachen should regain control of its southern lands.
5- The borders of the principality of Syunik should extend all the way to Lake Sevan since their capital Yeghegis is beyond their control.

Yeghegis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

6-The Principality of Vayots Dzor ruled by the Proshyan dynasty should control its capital Martiros and the locations of Jahri and Geghard.

Proshyan dynasty - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Martiros, Vayots Dzor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1274455

Geghard - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1274496
Jahri
View attachment 1274456

Ճահուկ (գյուղ) - Վիքիպեդիա

hy.wikipedia.org

7- Principality of Sasun
- Sasun should have been ruled by the Holo dynasty, this dynasty is probably a branch of the Tornikians dynasty that survived in this area.

Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.)...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

8: Principality of Rshtunik/Akdamar
The ruling dynasty of the Sefedinyans /Artsruni

Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.)...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

9 Principality of Artaz, the ruling dynasty is Amatuni
The Principality of Artaz controls far too large an area, the principality's control should not extend beyond the historical region of Artaz
View attachment 1274482
View attachment 1274475

Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.)...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

View attachment 1274436
View attachment 1274438

Fr. Khachen was better represented in the first version of Tinto maps

 

[FarsenFSD]

Forgive me if I am wrong in the location of the kingdom on the map but if Khachen is a armenian kingdom, why is the province called "Shusha"? Shusha is the azeri name, "Shushi" is the armenian name and the one that should be displayed if controlled by an armenian state.

 

[GDQuirm]

The west African peppers should be peppers and the other oft-cited good in the region is Kola nuts, which the devs have never addressed to my knowledge and which should not (In my opinion) be represented due to only having high importance in their native region - other than for a brief surge in interest well after the timespan of the game, after which point it was replaced by other bittering agents like Caffeine. Other than that, what spices in the region can come close enough in demand or expense to be grouped with Saffron?

I believe the argument for lumping African peppers/etc in is the impact on trade mechanics. If African peppers are lumped in with new world peppers, then the two have the same impact on price trades. If one country imports a lot of African peppers, then profitability of a new world trade for 'peppers' becomes lower and vis versa. So that seems like a good argument to me for not lumping west African peppers with new world peppers.

That said, there should probably be a demand for the purchase of African peppers by both Europe and the middle-east, so it's kinda weird that there isn't a good for that. I can see it to an extent, because to put it bluntly, west Africa in this time period is a pretty small place, demographically speaking, compared to any of these other regions with their own trade good. So there's a pretty restricted limit on how much of a unique "west Africa spice" good can be produced for consumption by burghers/nobility across other continents. How much that matters from a gameplay standpoint, I couldn't say without actually knowing the playtests; the devs have stated before that they used to have a lot of different spices before, and it didn't play well in testing, so I'm not sure where the sweet spot is. If there's room for one more, then a west African pepper good would be top of my list to add.

As far as how much of the world's saffron should be made in just Persia, and how many other goods could be lumped under it, I would say there's an argument for lumping any high-value plant that doesn't fall under other categories into 'saffron' or 'spices', etc etc.. Largely because these exist mostly as luxury consumption goods, rather than input goods where the difference might matter from a mechanics standpoint. So arguably, maybe you could lump in things like juniper or some of the more valuable flowers under saffron, for the purpose of 'valuable plant you sell on the market that grows in Europe'. In general, I would make the same argument for most aromatics, particularly since the 'perfumery' building (which was revealed before the spice split that added saffron) already converts 'spices' (presumably now saffron OR spices) into incense.

Edit: West African peppers compete with Indian peppers. The same point stands, but with a far longer and more expensive routing to India, which makes the proximity of West Africa to Europe an even bigger problem from a pricing standpoint.

 

[LordThanatos]

I believe the argument for lumping African peppers/etc in is the impact on trade mechanics. If African peppers are lumped in with new world peppers, then the two have the same impact on price trades. If one country imports a lot of African peppers, then profitability of a new world trade for 'peppers' becomes lower and vis versa. So that seems like a good argument to me for not lumping west African peppers with new world peppers.

New world 'peppers' are under the Chili good, not the pepper good. If you mean old world peppers, then yes, good, West African pepper should interact directly with the supply and demand of East Asian peppers. That's what it did historically, after all. They started to be sold by Portugal to cut into the Venetian black/long pepper monopoly, and was Portugal's start to building the institutions that would later help them trade Asian peppers once they'd found the Cape route. African peppers later fell out of favour on the European palate in our timeline, but that can be balanced with a relatively tiny number of producing locations in Africa compared to Asia so that it can compete for trade in the early game when volume from Asia is still small. That way they'll be initially valuable, but slowly fall out of high significance to Europe and North Africa as the international spice trade opens up further.

That said, there should probably be a demand for the purchase of African peppers by both Europe and the middle-east, so it's kinda weird that there isn't a good for that. I can see it to an extent, because to put it bluntly, west Africa in this time period is a pretty small place, demographically speaking, compared to any of these other regions with their own trade good. So there's a pretty restricted limit on how much of a unique "west Africa spice" good can be produced for consumption by burghers/nobility across other continents. How much that matters from a gameplay standpoint, I couldn't say without actually knowing the playtests; the devs have stated before that they used to have a lot of different spices before, and it didn't play well in testing, so I'm not sure where the sweet spot is. If there's room for one more, then a west African pepper good would be top of my list to add.

I disagree. As per the above, I want African peppers to be in the same category as Asian peppers. To have them totally separate and not influencing one-another's prices and demand would be historically absurd, seeing as that was the relevance of the Grain coast peppers, they were similar enough to be sold as a potential substitute. I'd personally even lump in Chili pepper, as that's why it initially got popular, and it's far more similar to pepper than something like vanilla, cinnamon or ginger, which should instead have their own group. But now I'm just harping on the same point I have for the last three TTs that have mentioned spices, so that's enough of that.

As far as how much of the world's saffron should be made in just Persia, and how many other goods could be lumped under it, I would say there's an argument for lumping any high-value plant that doesn't fall under other categories into 'saffron' or 'spices', etc etc.. Largely because these exist solely as luxury consumption goods, rather than input goods where the difference might matter from a mechanics standpoint. So arguably, maybe you could lump in things like juniper or some of the more valuable flowers under saffron, for the purpose of 'valuable plant you sell on the market that grows in Europe'. In general, I would make the same argument for most aromatics, particularly since the 'perfumery' building (which was revealed before the spice split that added saffron) already converts 'spices' (presumably now saffron OR spices) into incense.

I disagree. Juniper is not even close in quantity of sale or price to get even near saffron, in fact it's extremely easy to grow, especially in comparison and yields a lot more produce, which would just dilute the price of what should be the most valuable spice in most games. There's also no indication that that is what's happening here. Besides, if it were what was happening, Juniper grows circumpolar, from Northern Japan to Siberia, most of Europe and pretty much all of North America - so we should expect several dozen times more 'Saffron' on the goods map that just isn't there and shouldn't be there.

The only flower I can think might have fit in the Saffron good is cloves to represent expensive spices together if the number of goods were at a premium, but they already have their own good, and I don't see a reason that should change unless it causes large performance issues..

Iran just has far fewer Saffron locations than it should. European nations getting near equal numbers of saffron growing regions to Iran, which just so happen to be where saffron is grown is not juniper diluting the market, it's just a mistake that the devs can fix. They just need to add around two to three saffron locations to Fars, and maybe another two to Khorasan, and then the issue is far improved. It's not the total dominance that Iran should have, but perhaps some advance modifiers can fix the rest of the problem - otherwise it's still enough of a dominance that it should play fine with those changes.

 

[matfer13]

Is that corridor intended?

 

[tinholt]

Too much brown (counties), we need lordships!
View attachment 1274601

While I agree in principle. Currently, aren't the ranks as such:

- County
- Duchy
- Kingdom
- Empire
- (Europe)

Or at least that's what the Tinto talk discussed back when

If you add lordship, you'd have to bump everyone up one

 

[Aramenian]

Fr. Khachen was better represented in the first version of Tinto maps

The mountainous areas of Artsakh should have been under the control of the Armenians, but the lowland areas were certainly under the control of the Mongols and Turks.
Even on the maps below it can be seen that the areas around the Aras River had very few villages and were probably nominally under Armenian control.

https://karabakhfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Brief-History-of-Artsakh-Nagorno-Karabakh-RU.pdf

Карабах — Рувики: Интернет-энциклопедия

Карабах — изучайте подробную и систематизированную информацию в интернет-энциклопедии РУВИКИ

ru.ruwiki.ru

https://arenminasyan12.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/img-20230511-wa0003.jpg

Մեծ Հայքի գավառների ցանկ - Վիքիպեդիա

hy.wikipedia.org

AREN

arenminasyan12.wordpress.com

 

[GDQuirm]

New world 'peppers' are under the Chili good, not the pepper good.

Ah, oops. I maintain that I think that access to west African peppers should not affect the price of trade with India. You could say that the small number means that it won't affect the profitability of the Indian trade, but the Indian spice trade crosses an enormously longer distance. There may be fewer locations, but lets suppose I play in West Africa, and I develop huge population centres on a few of those tiles. How much price impact does this have? I don't know, and I'm not sure that I can unless we get word in from the devs confirming that the price difference across the distance being traded around the entirety of Africa actually merits the existence of the trade route, when the good can be found locally, albeit in a smaller quantity.

it's far more similar to pepper than something like vanilla, cinnamon or ginger

I don't actually think the similarity matters. What matters is the impact on the trade routes, mechanically. If something existing as a substitute good has significant price impact, then the result in terms of the actions of the countries and the attempts at establishing trade is ahistorical, even if the culinary use might be classified more accurately in some other fashion. The devs have chosen to split the goods up not by type, but by region, and that's so that the regional price difference merit the existence of inter-continental trade, and so encourage that trade by the player and the AI. I would place that as a very high priority.

Juniper is not even close in quantity of sale or price to get even near saffron

The central thrust of my statement was not 'juniper is a substitution good for saffron'. It was,

lumping any high-value plant that doesn't fall under other categories

these exist mostly as luxury consumption goods, rather than input goods where the difference might matter from a mechanics standpoint

the 'perfumery' building (which was revealed before the spice split that added saffron) already converts 'spices' (presumably now saffron OR spices) into incense

And the geographic lumping of goods affecting trade. The fact that juniper (or any given single good that was traded) does not fetch the same price as saffron, or that it does not fill the exact use as saffron, I think is far less important than whether or not its existence as a 'regional luxury consumption good' that is used mechanically for the same inputs merits its inclusion.

I agree that Persia should have more saffron provinces, so that adjacent regions are incentivized to buy it more. But that doesn't mean that I think the good should, as you put it,

should/is only representing saffron