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Tinto Maps #6 Great Britain & Ireland Feedback

9 September 2024 12 May 2025​


What an exciting week we have had, and best of all I finally get to say the name Europa Universalis V. It still feels weird in my mouth after carefully saying Caesar for what feels like a lifetime.

But lo, the day is finally come for the British Isles feedback thread. This short update was supposed to come out a few months ago, but I just had to teach some of you a lesson. Also I had a lot of other things on, like appearing in the announcement show last week.


Here we see the updated topography:

topography.jpg



The updated vegetation:
vegetation.jpg



Many impassable barriers have been added, for example the various peaks of the Pennines and the Wicklow Mountains. The Shannon also now poses a more significant barrier between east and west Ireland, with only a few crossing points often guarded by stockades.


Here we have the Locations map, bear in mind they are only showing the default English names but many places have Gaelic or Brythonic versions.

locations.jpg




Every country has had a general increase in density.

England, in particular the south, has had a big revamp at Location and Province level to more accurately reflect the historical counties, many of them pre-Norman in origin and many of them still in use today in some form. Westminster as a capital has been killed and rolled into a monolithic London.




Provinces:
provinces.jpg


Areas:

areas.jpg



And political mapmode (with overlord colouring off):
political.png




And Dynasties:
dynasty.jpg


We have added the Earldom of Orkney in the northern isles as a Norwegian vassal. Meanwhile the Palatinate of Durham and Chester have both been promoted from a special set of buildings to vassals under England. Wales has also been limited strictly to the Principality of Wales, with the marcher lords existing as very low control locations under England.

Ireland has had a major rework in terms of locations and tags. Mostly there have been minor Irish chieftaincies added. As always we are grateful to the many suggestions that have come from the forumers.



Culture:
culture.jpg



The most obvious culture change is that English has had Northumbrian split off, to represent the divide between southern and northern dialects and attitudes. A practical example of this is how in the south the English are more friendly to Normans, whereas the Northumbrians hate them (the northern shires still bear the scars of the Harrying of the North). Northumbrians and Scots also spoke a similar form of English in this period, so it helps to set them up as a sort of middleman.

Norwegians in northern Scotland and the nearby North Atlantic have also been split into Norn.


As a bonus, Court Language, showing 3 main worlds: Gaelic, Anglo-French, and Roman Catholic Bishoprics.

court_language.jpg



There have also been some changes to Raw Goods, as you can see here:

raw.jpg





We still have time to make some changes, so let us know what we can do to push this even further towards where it needs to be.

I won’t show Population numbers right now, as it’s pending a proper rework. Among other things, the idea is to reduce the population numbers in England.
 
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Where are danelaw culture and scottish clans as playable nations? Plus english culture may be divided to mercian, east anglian, kentian, wessexian, essexian and sussexian.
There won't be a Danelaw culture, but that's basically what is being modelled with 'Northumbrian'.

Scottish Clans look like they'll be modelled as part of the estates system, and reinforced through other mechanics like nationally specific policies and flavour.

For both of these, I feel like they're being captured well.
 
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Could just have "the North", "the Midlands", and "the South", by fusing Mercia and East Anglia (in 1337, they used very closely connected dialects and were heavily interlinked tradewise, unlike the present day where East Anglia perhaps has slightly more association with the South than the Midlands), and fusing the West Country and the Home Counties. Those three are a pretty time-honoured split of the English realm.
If you compare the number of areas in England with those in France, there's already a massive disparity. It'd feel weird for England to only to have three regions (and Ireland to have 4!)
 
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If you compare the number of areas in England with those in France, there's already a massive disparity. It'd feel weird for England to only to have three regions (and Ireland to have 4!)
England is a bit less than a quarter of the land-mass of France (130,279 km2 vs 551,695 km2); all things being equal you'd expect it to have a bit less than a quarter of the number of regions. Can't remember how many France has at the moment, but I don't remember it being wildly higher than 12?
 
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Hi. I live near the wicklow mountains, and I think it's an odd choice to make them "Impassable". I can't speak for the renaissance, but in the present day it's extremely easy to cross from Dublin into wicklow, and wicklow has always been in Dublin's orbit.

Further more, to describe the wicklow mountains as "mountains" is an exaggeration, most of them are hills with a rolling/glacial landscape. That means to ascend into the wicklow mountains is very easy. Indeed it takes just a days walk to walk from south Dublin into the heart of the wicklow mountains, and it isn't strenuous.

Perhaps in the time period it was less passable due to woods and bogs, but I don't think it should be impassable the way, say, the Alps are.
Michael Dwyer disagrees. I think significant work had to be done to make that traversable in the 19th century.
 
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England is a bit less than a quarter of the land-mass of France (130,279 km2 vs 551,695 km2); all things being equal you'd expect it to have a bit less than a quarter of the number of regions. Can't remember how many France has at the moment, but I don't remember it being wildly higher than 12?
Apologies for the low quality snip, but I've had a look at the areas as posted in the map around Christmas. Doing a very quick scan of modern-day France, I think there's just under 20 areas?

The Dutch-speaking low countries have about 5 regions to themselves as well. I'm not sure if physical geography would be the main criteria, as the areas in Scandinavia seem to be much larger geographically.

3 areas just seems far too low. I wouldn't particularly mind if they split the north of England into 2-3 areas either.

1747137364310.png
 
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We're basing cultures on dialects? My bad, I forgot that.

So every location is going to have its own culture then?
Different areas in England have their own history with their own countries. England couldn't assimilate them easily and quickly. If we have a bunch of principalities in HRE, France, Japan and Russia then England should have theirs.
 
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Different areas in England have their own history with their own countries. England couldn't assimilate them easily and quickly. If we have a bunch of principalities in HRE, France, Japan and Russia then England should have theirs.
I'd disagree here. England was a lot more unified politically than France and the HRE. You still have regionalism, of course, but that's probably better modelled through control over locations, and actions of the estates.
 
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I'd disagree here. England was a lot more unified politically than France and the HRE. You still have regionalism, of course, but that's probably better modelled through control over locations, and actions of the estates.
Not independent countries or vassals of course. But that areas should have claims of Mercia, Kent e.g. etc.
 
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Thought I'd leave some quick Wales feedback - it's looking good, but a couple things stand out as a result. The most important of these is that the city from which the southern half of the Principality of Wales was administered from is not part of it in this setup! Fortunately, there's enough space to add a proper Carmarthen location, with the remaining part of Carmarthernshire south of the Towy (the historic Cantref Bychan and Cydweli) becoming the key Norman stronghold of Kidwelly. Also, I'm not sure why you've changed to the small town of Llangollen from Wrexham for the Powys Fadog/southeast Denbighshire location. It sounds a little modern, but by this time it was already an important market town specialising in arms manufacturing and iron and lead mining. It was one of the largest settlements in Wales, and the seat of the Marcher Lordship of Bromfrield and Yale. It should also being readily accessible directly from Denbigh, rather than blocked off by Flint and Eryri.

Apart from these I think it would be nice to split the Montgomery and Builth locations for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the majority of the Builth location is outside of the lordship of Builth and cantref of Buellt, half of which has actually been assigned to the Brecknock location - Builth is actually is actually in a key location between the Cambrian and Black mountain ranges, controlling access to the Towy valley, so there definitely should be access from the location to Carmarthenshire. Additionally, the lordships east of the river Wye would become the county of Radnorshire rather than joining Builth in Brecknockshire. Extending Builth southwards and adding a Radnor location to represent these much more English-influenced lordships would also us to avoid the awkward and ahistorical "Powys" province, letting us include Builth and Radnor in a Brycheiniog/Brecknockshire province.

Likewise, splitting Machynlleth from Montgomery also allow a split between the rugged, Welsh parts of Montgomeryshire and the more easily-controlled lowlands, as well as letting us represent the Dee valley (the bit of the principality that sticks off to the east) as part of the Harlech location, adding a wasteland for the rugged Berwyn mountains. Machynlleth was important in its own right as a market town with sea access along the Dyfi river (something very remote indeed from Montgomery), but is most famous as Owain Glyndŵr's capital during his rebellion against England. Given that he eventually controlled most of Wales, I think that's pretty significant!

1747136331603.png


1747137858144.png

This setup also allows for provinces based on either historic Welsh kingdoms (as it is currently, albeit with a weird modern Powys) or on the later counties. An extra location in each of historic kingdom of Powys and the often Brycheiniog-associated "Rhwng Gwy a Hafren" region allows for nice three-location provinces for Brycheiniog and Powys (which if included has to have the Llangollen/Wrexham Powys Fadog location), with a nice border between north Wales (Gwynedd and Powys) and south Wales (the rest). You could also split Deheubarth into Dyfed and Ceredigion, but Ceredigion might be a little small.

1747138190874.png

A setup based on English provinces wouldn't need too much amendment - in the south just rename Deheubarth/Dyfed to Carmarthenshire, Brycheiniog to Brecknockshire, and optionally Ceredigion to Cardiganshire. We can then add a Denbighshire province, with the remains of Gwynedd and Powys becoming Carnarvonshire and Montgomeryshire, which if too small can be included with either Denbighshire or Brecknockshire.

If Denbighshire, Brecknockshire, and Montgomeryshire are too anachronistic (all of which being having been organised in 1535), we can rename them "Denbigh", "Brecon", and "Powys" after the largest Marcher Lordships in the provinces.
 
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Apologies for the low quality snip, but I've had a look at the areas as posted in the map around Christmas. Doing a very quick scan of modern-day France, I think there's just under 20 areas?

The Dutch-speaking low countries have about 5 regions to themselves as well. I'm not sure if physical geography would be the main criteria, as the areas in Scandinavia seem to be much larger geographically.

3 areas just seems far too low. I wouldn't particularly mind if they split the north of England into 2-3 areas either.

That's fair, I can count 18 in the borders of modern France, which would imply c. 6 English regions, give or take. I suppose that matches up with Ireland, which is 2/3rds of England's area and has 4 regions, so would imply about 6 English regions as well.

The trouble is... England was never really divided in this period in this manner. The only real option I'm aware of is the Rule of the Major Generals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_the_Major-Generals) under Cromwell, which are... eh. You can see why they didn't really last.

If we had to go in the ballpark of 6, I'm really not seeing why:

1. South-East England
2. South-West England
3. East Midlands
4. West Midlands
5. North-East England
6. North-West England
7. East of England

isn't the option - basically the modern NUTS regions with London folded into South-East England and Yorkshire and North-West fused because otherwise North-West would be tiny from both population and area.

They are compass points names, but... what else is there? Again, England was just never divided really throughout this whole period into areas of this size and there are no "natural" terms to use. You can't use East Anglia for East of England, because the East of England region contains Essex which is not Anglian. You can't use Mercia for either of the Midlands, because the extent of the Kingdom of Mercia was far larger than the present Midlands are and extended all the way down to London, including places like Oxfordshire. The Home Counties is maaaaaybe a fit for South-East England (eh...), but it wasn't used as a term during the game period and it looks strange if all of the other regions have geographical names except the Home Counties.

About the only one that has a natural name is using "the West Country" instead of "South-West England".
 
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Michael Dwyer disagrees. I think significant work had to be done to make that traversable in the 19th century.
That Michael Dwyer could sustain a guerilla campaign in wicklow says more about the boggy hilly terrain of wicklow itself then the ability to cross into wicklow from Dublin.

I don't know what the region was like in 1400, but I do know there are hundreds of structures in the boundary region (where I live) dating back hundreds of years. It wasn't some impassable no man's land.
 
Would you march an army through them?
I'm not an expert, but it's far from being the most impassable terrain in Ireland. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could probably find records of British armies marching through the region during the period. There are dozens of old castles and forts in the wicklow/Dublin boundary, showing that raids regularly crossed from wicklow into the pale.
 
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View attachment 1297569
Thought I'd leave some quick Wales feedback - it's looking good, but a couple things stand out as a result. The most important of these is that the city from which the southern half of the Principality of Wales was administered from is not part of it in this setup! Fortunately, there's enough space to add a proper Carmarthen location, with the remaining part of Carmarthernshire south of the Towy (the historic Cantref Bychan and Cydweli) becoming the key Norman stronghold of Kidwelly. Also, I'm not sure why you've changed to the small town of Llangollen from Wrexham for the Powys Fadog/southeast Denbighshire location. It sounds a little modern, but by this time it was already an important market town specialising in arms manufacturing and iron and lead mining. It was one of the largest settlements in Wales, and the seat of the Marcher Lordship of Bromfrield and Yale. It should also being readily accessible directly from Denbigh, rather than blocked off by Flint and Eryri.

Apart from these I think it would be nice to split the Montgomery and Builth locations for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the majority of the Builth location is outside of the lordship of Builth and cantref of Buellt, half of which has actually been assigned to the Brecknock location - Builth is actually is actually in a key location between the Cambrian and Black mountain ranges, controlling access to the Towy valley, so there definitely should be access from the location to Carmarthenshire. Additionally, the lordships east of the river Wye would become the county of Radnorshire rather than joining Builth in Brecknockshire. Extending Builth southwards and adding a Radnor location to represent these much more English-influenced lordships would also us to avoid the awkward and ahistorical "Powys" province, letting us include Builth and Radnor in a Brycheiniog/Brecknockshire province.

Likewise, splitting Machynlleth from Montgomery also allow a split between the rugged, Welsh parts of Montgomeryshire and the more easily-controlled lowlands, as well as letting us represent the Dee valley (the bit of the principality that sticks off to the east) as part of the Harlech location, adding a wasteland for the rugged Berwyn mountains. Machynlleth was important in its own right as a market town with sea access along the Dyfi river (something very remote indeed from Montgomery), but is most famous as Owain Glyndŵr's capital during his rebellion against England. Given that he eventually controlled most of Wales, I think that's pretty significant!

View attachment 1297582

View attachment 1297589
This setup also allows for provinces based on either historic Welsh kingdoms (as it is currently, albeit with a weird modern Powys) or on the later counties. An extra location in each of historic kingdom of Powys and the often Brycheiniog-associated "Rhwng Gwy a Hafren" region allows for nice three-location provinces for Brycheiniog and Powys (which if included has to have the Llangollen/Wrexham Powys Fadog location), with a nice border between north Wales (Gwynedd and Powys) and south Wales (the rest). You could also split Deheubarth into Dyfed and Ceredigion, but Ceredigion might be a little small.

View attachment 1297591
A setup based on English provinces wouldn't need too much amendment - in the south just rename Deheubarth/Dyfed to Carmarthenshire, Brycheiniog to Brecknockshire, and optionally Ceredigion to Cardiganshire. We can then add a Denbighshire province, with the remains of Gwynedd and Powys becoming Carnarvonshire and Montgomeryshire, which if too small can be included with either Denbighshire or Brecknockshire.

If Denbighshire, Brecknockshire, and Montgomeryshire are too anachronistic (all of which being having been organised in 1535), we can rename them "Denbigh", "Brecon", and "Powys" after the largest Marcher Lordships in the provinces.

I like all of these suggestions a lot excepting one point - why Kidwelly/Cydwelli and not Llanelli/Carnwyllion? At the start of the game it's a toss-up, but Llanelli went on to be a more significant economic community over the period of the game.
 
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