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I gave your scenario finally a try, starting in 1337 as Portugal, and as much as I like it, I do have some bugs and nitpicking to report ;)

BUG: Portuguese monarchs are fcked up - both Joao I and Beatrice have 1383 as starting date. As Joao I is earlier in the file, they appear in that order, meaning that Beatrice will rule till DUarte takes over in 1433. I'm sure that was NOT the idea ;)

NITPICKING:
-Silesia you made German, both as province and stateculture. No matter the realism here it is rather ironic then that you do use monarchs having Polish names. Since Pommern has both german and Polish culture (like in GC) while historically they have less right to it than Silesia, that seems rather inconsequent to me. Anyhow, you might want to add an event making Silesia part of Bohemia around 1350 anyway... and make them a vassal of Bohemia at the start (if they were not already, too lazy to check ;))
-You borrowed a few monarch- and leaderslists from the MES I saw, but you were not very consequent here either - some nations like Mazovia you have no rulers for for example, and I saw also some Asian states w/o them, while I'm quite certain that MES had monarchs for all these nations as well...

QUESTIONABLE BALANCE:
-DO Ilkhanids ever disappear as they should? I have seen Timurids appear and getting annexed in no time, that's not much fun...
-Lithuania is a wimp and being pagan doesn't help them. You did not give them an ai which means that they never actually try to 'unite' western Russia, therefor they terribly underperform.
-Spanish union - you seemingly removed all commands like annexation and vassalization here, as you also did with Burgundy. Honestly I don't get that approach, now Austria remains a tiny little German state while Aragon eat up most of Castillia and while the two are now forcibly allied they hate eachother so an union seems out of question. Castilla has no means to colonize, Aragon has (almost) no explorers and lacks an ai telling him where to explore/colonize anyway.
-Mongolia - do they disappear or at least move out of China? I have seen them losing all their provinces in China and 'moving' to Chagatai (which really stretches history here ;)) but keeping a capitol in Anhui... kind of weird, though I wasn't paying attention to these lands that much...
-Ottomans terribly underperform, I'd say even worse than in GC... too few provinces at the start, wrong religions, too much BB... bleh.
 
Kasperus said:
-Lithuania is a wimp and being pagan doesn't help them. You did not give them an ai which means that they never actually try to 'unite' western Russia, therefor they terribly underperform.
-Spanish union - you seemingly removed all commands like annexation and vassalization here, as you also did with Burgundy. Honestly I don't get that approach, now Austria remains a tiny little German state while Aragon eat up most of Castillia and while the two are now forcibly allied they hate eachother so an union seems out of question. Castilla has no means to colonize, Aragon has (almost) no explorers and lacks an ai telling him where to explore/colonize anyway.

you must understand that you have seen other may have not. I for instance have not seen the Aragon problem you have, I have on the other hand seen Portugal eaten up by Castille a couple of times.

Lithuania! In the few games I played they have conquered wildly and taken over provinces as far as Holland. Also to the east...
 
Kasperus said:
BUG: Portuguese monarchs are fcked up - both Joao I and Beatrice have 1383 as starting date. As Joao I is earlier in the file, they appear in that order, meaning that Beatrice will rule till DUarte takes over in 1433. I'm sure that was NOT the idea ;)

That is indeed an unfortunate bug.

-Silesia you made German, both as province and stateculture. No matter the realism here it is rather ironic then that you do use monarchs having Polish names. Since Pommern has both german and Polish culture (like in GC) while historically they have less right to it than Silesia, that seems rather inconsequent to me. Anyhow, you might want to add an event making Silesia part of Bohemia around 1350 anyway... and make them a vassal of Bohemia at the start (if they were not already, too lazy to check ;))

The sources I read didn't give me the impression that Silesia had all that much to do with Poland and Polish culture, but I admit I didn't read much about that particular nation...

The monarchs I just copied straight over from MES IIRC, and trusted that you guys did a good job with them. :D

-You borrowed a few monarch- and leaderslists from the MES I saw, but you were not very consequent here either - some nations like Mazovia you have no rulers for for example, and I saw also some Asian states w/o them, while I'm quite certain that MES had monarchs for all these nations as well...

Oh, maybe I forgot some.

Also, just for the record (in case you didn't remember), I asked for permission from you guys before using your stuff. :)

-DO Ilkhanids ever disappear as they should? I have seen Timurids appear and getting annexed in no time, that's not much fun...

No, those buggers never dissapear as they are meant to.

-Lithuania is a wimp and being pagan doesn't help them. You did not give them an ai which means that they never actually try to 'unite' western Russia, therefor they terribly underperform.

Lithuania most certainly should have had an AI file, you are right.

-Spanish union - you seemingly removed all commands like annexation and vassalization here, as you also did with Burgundy. Honestly I don't get that approach, now Austria remains a tiny little German state while Aragon eat up most of Castillia and while the two are now forcibly allied they hate eachother so an union seems out of question. Castilla has no means to colonize, Aragon has (almost) no explorers and lacks an ai telling him where to explore/colonize anyway.

I disagree with your critique of my Iberian handling. Of course, the earlier you start, later events have a worse chance of triggering as they should - but I see Spain form more often in my mod than in vanilla, due to neither nation being required to be a vassal of the other in order to Viva España to happen.

-Mongolia - do they disappear or at least move out of China? I have seen them losing all their provinces in China and 'moving' to Chagatai (which really stretches history here ;)) but keeping a capitol in Anhui... kind of weird, though I wasn't paying attention to these lands that much...

Mongolia is even worse than Il-Khanate... :(

-Ottomans terribly underperform, I'd say even worse than in GC... too few provinces at the start, wrong religions, too much BB... bleh.

Would it really be EU2 without the OE AI underperforming? :D

Anyway... the 1337 is my least completed scenario, and never really got finished. And it will be cut from future versions of AoI - mainly because I have decided that 1337-1913 is too long a time period.
 
I have played quite a number of hands-off games from 1337, with a few events added to solve the Il-khanate problem. I have been testing new AI's according to IDLF's work, and have seen good results, for the most part. Spain, for example, usually forms, and then successfully dominates the Americas. Took out both the Incas and Aztecs, and colonized up a storm. The Dutch formed, and took the East Indies. It was really pretty cool. Of course, the big powers divided up Germany again, but I don't know of any way to avoid that. Oh, and the Ottomans became massive.... I had to give them an AI-only event to reduce their BB to avoid the BB wars, but other than that all works well. Maybe I'll assemble my AI work, and the AI only events, and send them in to you, Hive... sometime... And I really like the 1337 scenario; that is why I play AoI. So please don't cut it; maybe just note that it is unfinished so nobody will blame you.
 
I like 1337 as a start year was well - but stretching only 60 tech levels in land/naval and 10 in trade/infra is not working out all too well.

So as a result of that, any future version of AoI is likely to be 1453-1913.

Btw, what's so special about those AI files you mention?
 
Well, if you plan to change the startdate anyway I can save myself the time to going anymore into most of the issues I raised I guess ;)

Though as to Spain I would say that in vanilla Castilla become always Spain (tag-change at least) by 1476 unless it is destroyed and then often annexes Aragon by events (that requires vassalization thus). In your mod Castilla or Aragon will become Spain in 1516 about always, haven't seen how the inheritance is then worked out yet. So I think my critique is valid a bit ;) Though I give you that, I didn't check that Aragon and Castilla have both the Spanish ai, so they should at least explore well enough, good enough for me I guess...
 
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Hive said:
I like 1337 as a start year was well - but stretching only 60 tech levels in land/naval and 10 in trade/infra is not working out all too well.

So as a result of that, any future version of AoI is likely to be 1453-1913.

Btw, what's so special about those AI files you mention?

Yeah, that is a problem... I very rarely play later scenarios anyway, so it hadn't bothered me. As for the AI files....They colonize beautifully, and are less aggressive in general, thus limiting the number of wars, which are usually far too numerous. They also send out more merchants, thus making the player less likely to dominate world trade. With a few help events, one can get fairly realistic development, except for the obvious problem with too many annexations of minors.
 
I have a question, have you started the new map yet and if yes how does it look?
 
Vricklund said:
Hive is having the blues. I wouldn't take him 100% seriously right now. Just don't expect him to be done any time soon. :)

Heh. No, I have simply grown pretty tired of EU2. So why keep spending loads of time modding it?
 
Eww, c'mon, I really started liking AoI... :( In fact I started making a list of improvements and bugs that deal with the more relevant period to mention, after I about finished a full campaign with P'gal (which became very historical after I made and created a lot of additional events to 'fix' the situation, therefor creating a very relevant base for checking how well the later stuff works out)...
But if you stop developing it I won't bother posting it (or I will subvert your mod and continue developing it myself, which would give me a practical reason to use my own custom map at least :p)
 
Kasperus said:
Eww, c'mon, I really started liking AoI... :( In fact I started making a list of improvements and bugs that deal with the more relevant period to mention, after I about finished a full campaign with P'gal (which became very historical after I made and created a lot of additional events to 'fix' the situation, therefor creating a very relevant base for checking how well the later stuff works out)...
But if you stop developing it I won't bother posting it (or I will subvert your mod and continue developing it myself, which would give me a practical reason to use my own custom map at least :p)

Well... maybe I just need a break from modding. I've grown tired of modding before, but came back after a break... so I won't rule out that happening again. :)

I'm just burned out for now. But please do post any comments and suggestions you might have anyway - you got me curious now. :D
 
Ok, an, uhm, not so short list then of the things that struck me most. As said I was playing with Portugal, so I start with a bug, a tailed one as well ;)

1. The event that should move Portuguese capitol to Brazil during Napoleonic wars has a bug - it checcks ownership of Niteroi (211) but tries to put the capitol in Corrientes (221) which POR won't normally even own. However, 211 is in itself not very consequent capitol imo. At least based on names of colonies Rio de Janeiro ought to be in Salvador (209), which looking on the rl map seems also more likely to me.
The funny 'tail' here is that when the capitol moved I suddenly noticed that my Portugal had now for some reason gotten the whiteman penalty - I could not build fleets/cavalry. Also the manpower dropped by 90% as now I had only the mp from Brazil (in P'gal I had CC's). It gave me possibility however to build CC's in Brazil. Peculiar event thus, one you might at least fix, or even remove (not that the French do ever attack Portugal in these years in the earlier scenario's but still).

2. Colonial revolters in the America's
Here some problems, inconsequencies and possible improvements:

In general the revolts suck. It is a miracle if any American country appears with more that 2-3 provinces and then manages to keep them. The problem is that the revolters have no troops and cannot normally speaking get a peace that will give them all their cores. Eventually Latin America ends in a mozaic of Spanish/revolters provinces that make no sense at all.
Best solution (which pdox apparently failed to provide here) would be similar to how USA creation was handled - simply once a revolter appears, Spain is forced to give them all their cores. Then it is Spain that has to beat the crap out of the revolter if it wants to keep these lands, and not the other way.

Some stuff about revolters is not consequent either. I see you made the new revolters here being per defalt catholic/iberian but the old one's like Argentina and Mexico are lacking that. In consequence I got a reformed Argentina and Pagan/Aztec Mexico. I'd say either make them all catholic/iberian or none.

The cores are quite inconsequent as well here. Again I guess this was caused by merging of pdox and non-pdox revolters. Peru, Bolivia and Chile have no cores on eachother while Great-Columbia has with Peru and Argentina has with Chili. This does not represent the historical conflicts consequently. Either make all their cores unique for a separate country or add for example conflicting cores to Chili (on Tucuman/Jujuy) and Bolivia/Peru (on Moquega - 'Arica' conflict).

Some revolter area's are imo wrong. Brazil misses Amapa in its revoltercode, as it does Mirim (which fits better Brazil than Columbia to which the last has no connection on this map anyway). Also originally Ecuador was much bigger, meaning that Great Columbia should also revolt with Pastaza, which ought to be initially removed from Peru's minimum list. Then also Ecuador ought to get Pastaza when it breaks away from Great Columbia. Peru ought to have core on it. Uruguay has also Artigas as 2nd revolterprovince which is kind of weird. I'd say you better put Paraguay there and let Uruguay stick to the Uruguay province. It is not a great solution as the map really sucks here, but originally Paraguay indeed owned lands more to the south anyway so that's not that wrong...

You should also do some work on the colonial revolters ai, for two reasons:
-it should actuall TRY to beat the Spanish (and perhaps fight with eachother a bit as well, as historically happen)
-it should try to colonize their area's in which Spanish ai generally always fails. For that last I editted ai's in the save by specifying their regions and setting their expansion to 1 or 2, which made them at least finish what Spain should have done


3. More general on the ai

Generally ai isn't great. Dunno if you editted it much or not but in any case the ai is quite agressive (starting useless wars on coward even) which ruins their economies which especially makes the colonial nations fail in colonizing the world. Also there is simply a lot of target countries on their lists which the ai cannot prioritize properly. In general it starts wars against someone, fights for 10 years and then makes peace for 25 gold, getting +10 inflation. So:
-make ai less agressive
-make preferably more ai-files and change them either time-specific or interactively (or both). For example let England concentrate on France in 15th century but not waste its resources on them in the 19th. Also colonial ai like Spanish should not be too much neighbour oriented imo - now when they manage to annex Aztecs they concentrate more on colonizing the poor north-Mexico instead of going for South-America for example.

Ai could be helped in (historical) wars anyway. Spain fails miserably on all fronts if it does not annex Aztecs/Inca's. I was thinking of 2 kinds of solutions here to help them:
-either make events for Aztecs that will force them to secede every province they own that gets controlled by Spain in their war (as Spain fails to make peace) and then maybe trigger for Spain additional troops to be created there.
-or make a 2nd ai-file with Spain being ferocious=yes that will become active once they are at war with Aztecs and only get changed back when Aztecs are annexed. Ferocious ai can really help in wars that should last longer and be more decisive. I simulated it very nicely on my Napoleonic wars, for which I triggered events which created 2 alliances in Europe (Napoleonic and anti-Napoleonic). On non-ferocious the alliances wp'ed after a few months, on ferocious the war lasted for 6 years, till French government fell in 1815.

The last example is perhaps not that easy to achieve under normal game conditions (I had to remove all alliances manually from the save to enable the alliances at all, lacking a breakalliance command). But situation could be prepared by adding events of 'reaction' to the French revolution making its historical allies improve their relations with France (and with eachother) and their enimeis worsen them (and improve with eachother). The France ought to be 'encouraged' to actually start its wave of attacks, which ought to break down the unhistorical alliances which would make it possible to recreate the alliances that work best here. Similar thing could be tried with other similar wars (Crimean war, Polish partitions, 30 years war etc)

Ai might also make use of different ai-files for more historical colonizing. Daywalker made nice mods on that already iirc, no reason to not use stuff like that ;)


4 Empires that should disappear...

I was quite irritated about Moghuls, who first fail to succeed taking out Delhi (same story as with Spain vs Aztecs in many aspects, though also Moghuls seem to lack the will to attack Delhi at all). I eventually triggered their event in console so I got some stronger Mughals that made my overrunning of India as Portugal at least a bit more exciting ;). But then Mughals also should fall apart. The old pdox revolt-events are not good enough. Also some revolters are actually lacking here. Maratha-state never really appears (and lacks the Malwa core as well). There are no states in eastern India to appear. There is also no way for England to ever conquering Delhi before taking out for example all of Afghanistan and Bukhara region. Meaning: Mughul empire should get good events that make them really fall apart and (preferably) also losing Delhi when a colonial nation gets close to them here. You lack tags for revolters here I guess but that can be always 'fixed' by making revolt-area's for Marathen, Hyderabad, Bengal and Orissa bigger (myself I added Nagpur, Bundelkhand and Bukhara as revolters in my game and changed Moghuls to AFganistan by event which triggered when Moghuls lost control of all their important provinces, but that's just an idea ;))

Similar stuff could be used in regard to Mongols and Ilkhans (these of course if you will start so early that these are still existing). Also would help with Russians and OE underperforming...


5 Colonial pagans populations

Well, I'm very much against having N-Americal native states. They suck, they make colonial powers waste their money and troops and their lands get soon such huge popoulations that AI fails at converting them. Not surprisingly Zacatecas and Cuzco ended the game with 999.999 populations being still pagan/native. More surprising was that also half of USA was still pagan/native, among which Delaware and Manhattan, who had by 1800 200k populations, almost impossible for USA to convert anymore.
So I'd say for best just remove them. Otherwise add events that will lower their populations (or even make them start with much lower populations). Give them less provinces (perhaps make them also colonize like Inca's/Aztecs, assuming they don't do that already, did not really pay attention to that...). Even add events for (US) ai that will convert them to anglosaxon/protestants when Americans get them... no reason to cripple USA just because English ai fucked it up ;)

6 Finally some nitpicks

-Why exactly did England need to be split into three different tags? Couldn't the tags be better used for some more nice revolters?
-Polish monarchs after 1798 are 'weird', what did you use here? :confused: Hapsburgs would have never ruled in Poland, if it survived. After 1798 (=dead of Stanislaw August), then the next rulers would have been Wettins (Friedrich August III of Saxony to be more precise, who was the royal position 'offered' in the 1791 constitution, he also ruled Duchy of Warsaw during Napoleonic wars). Alternatively the Poniatowski's could have inherited the throne (through last king's nephew) or the Czartoryski's... as Poland generally does manage to survive (I really hate it that Polish partitions were handled by pdox in such a lame way...) it is kind of a thing to fix imo ;)
-Germany has no ai, and if it uses the Prussian the Prussia might use also a colonial ai - after all ze Germans HAD some colonies ;)

Had something more to add but forgot that right now...

EDIT: I forgot no. 7 - tropical revolters. African countries revolting from colonial nations with 50+ on techlevels are not cool. They can field 200k armies which colonial ai cannot beat. These are a problem however as revolts in Africa with its pupulations are high already and ai cannot fight revolts here well, so such countries reappearing, with general high ai-agressivity (meaning probable high WE most of the time) is more than likely. In America's these are nice and historical (unless these are Indians), in Africa and (generally) Asia they are not. Countries as Benin, Ashanti, Dahomey, Congo, Zanj and Zimbabwe should not be able to reappear once taken out. Preferably ai should also not try to attack them till 1700's anyway (again plea for more variable ai thus).
 
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Some very nice points - some of which I was already aware of (the American colonial problem, as an example), but haven't gotten around to change.

I actually thought I already did remove African revolters bar nations like Zulu... but I guess I didn't.
 
I, for one, hope you don't stop doing this Hive. I think your mod has excellent potential. I was compiling my own list based on a few games:

1. Is there some kind of switch or random modifier that determines when or if the AIs start exploring? In one game Portugal and Spain didn't explore at all, and in the one I'm currently in Portugal and England(!) are about on schedule, while Spain's running quiet.

2. The game seems VERY unstable...politically. Oddly the game I started in 1337 has a closer bearing on our reality than one started in 1419. It's now 1520, France is down to three or four provinces, Sweden diploannexed Muscowy before Russia could form, and the Ottomans are down to two provinces. Byzantium survived til 1497 before it fell to ALBANIA.

Random chance...of course. Anything can happen, but it seems like a lot of ... weirdness/ahistorical outcomes are common in AoI, even more so than Vanilla.

2b. On a related note I'll back Kasperus(?) and agree the Ottomans are too weak, even weaker than in Vanilla. I'd consider tweaking the AI - or patching in Daywalker's AI, or see what this Europa Portugalis has to offer. I've noticed if the Ottomans perform more or less like they're supposed to, that naturally keeps the Great White Blob under control as well. Actually I'd look at all the colonizing AIs, as especially in a game that hopes to run into the early 20th century Britian, France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands have to get pretty close to our reality.

3. Similar to the first question about exploration, is there some sort of trigger/control that determines when and if someone will go for techs? In one game from 1337 to 1809, the 'Latin' powers are consistently running from 39 to 49 or so. The Moslems are all at 19ish. That's just too serious a discrepancy. This may be related to your comment that 60/10 techs over 676 years is too much ..

3a. So on that note I reluctantly agree. Having the 1337 scenario was neat, but I'd narrow AOI's time frame as well. In fact, I'd narrow it beyond your specs to perhaps 1453-1870. Incidentally I favor a 1453 start date, since two major events that can fubar European development - the HYW and the Ottomans taking out Constantinople, have happened/are inevitable.

4. I'd tend to agree with Kasperus on two more points: First, the England/UK having three 'spots' seems unnecessary. It can be knocked down to one, or two if changing 'England' to 'Great Britain' is an important consideration...and that frees a spot up for another minor or revolter.

Second, perhaps some of the natives can come back out. I'm not sure, I've never played a game without them, but barring major changes to the AI to help it fight them (again, like Daywalker's AI), the natives can really mess up colonial development. If you do keep them, then keeping the population down (perhaps by an auto smallpox/plague event w hen controlled by a European power?) is essential. MES has a good way of handling the Black Plague which might be applicable to the Americas.

And that's about it for now. There are more minor issues, but they're strongly AI related and pretty much uncontrollable. (For example, having the Austrians and Prussians actually fight in 1866, or having the Napoleonic Wars go off correctly...though I like Kasperus' fix for the latter.)

Again, just food for thought for when/if you're ready to come back to this. I've enjoyed tinkering with AoI, it's a fun scenario...though I admit my comments in # 1 (Spain not always colonizing) and # 3 (teching) seem serious, and # 2 is...worrisome, though a 1453 start date may get it under control.
 
I'm afraid issues #1 and #3 are uncontrollable within EU2.

In fact, one of the reasons why I have grown tired of modding is that I'm finally starting to feel that EU2 is too outdated function and feature wise compared to other Paradox games...
 
Hive, ive noticed two small bugs that im not exactly sure how to fix myself in the .inc files...

In the 1337 campaign the game crashes upon loading due to two bugs one in the .inc file and one in the U035.inc fule.

The first is there is a specified CoT in the .inc that doesnt have a specified owner apparently - so the game crashes.
The second is the revolt risk line in the u035.inc - im not exactly sure whats wrong here as ive never seen any other .inc file with a revolt risk line before; but needless to say it causes a game crash.
 
@Catknight
1 in controllable on the level that the ai can be switched to enable/disable exploring/colonizing only. However, ai will generally not explore/colonize if at war and that is about impossible to control w/o a war-end command.


@...
Further, countries as OE, Austria, Castilla or Muscovy all failt to do well if not extremely lucky in the beginning (as I can conclude after playing now a 2nd campaing from 1337, and I saw that in the first as well). THe fact is that Hive apparently already decided to not do anything about that scenario anymore, but that could be actually controlled much better if he had the will to do it ;). The thing is that one can always aid ai if one can only predict well where it will likely fail. OE fails most on technologies, lack of money and lack of troops. It should be behind Europe in all of these by 1800 but it already lags ages behind in 1500 when staring from 1337. Having a generally bad morale caused by not ver favourable dp and huge techcosts OE is always doomed to underperform. Austria is not very much helped by the fact that they won't get Burgundy anymore (not that Burgundy has such great odds as to survive till ~1480 anyway) and it starts in 1337 with even less provinces than in 1419. I think also that pdox really made a mistake by removing the HRE-bonus for the HAB tag here.

But all these nations together fail as they are scripted to be rather agressive but all have no economic base to support such a level of agressiveness, and/or are not compensated for that by aid-events. I know I faced a similar problem when designing the Mongolian ai for the MES. It was all fun that the Mongols were very agressive and started a lot of wars, but they could not support it or win it until I actally gave them latin techgroup, ultra morale religion/dp-based bonus, high starting techs, high manpowervalues and a bunch of aid annexation triggered on capital-control plus a bunch of ai-only troop-bonus events. That together with many changes of ai resulted in a Mongolia that while generally unable to conquer all of Asia and half of Europe, managed in to do at least well enough to provide the later seceding Hordes with some provinces to start with while reclaiming a decent base in East Asia.

WHich made me also conclude that EU2 is actually still very well editable and controllable for its purpose. And I would not agree that other pdox games really outdate it that much. Based on editability both HOI and Victoria are about equally limited as EU2, while they have their own gameplay limitations. CK has a totally different and much nicer system of functions but that is absolutely not suitable to enforce any contolled simulation for a historical scenario. HOI2 I don't have but I strongly doubt it provides anything 'new' for the sake of editors either. As such EU2 is perhaps kind of outdated but none of the later pdox games has been such a step forward either to make it already obsolete (says the guy who thinks that even the editable functions of civ2 are still usable to create historical scenario's ;)).
 
angelscotboi said:
Hive, ive noticed two small bugs that im not exactly sure how to fix myself in the .inc files...

In the 1337 campaign the game crashes upon loading due to two bugs one in the .inc file and one in the U035.inc fule.

The first is there is a specified CoT in the .inc that doesnt have a specified owner apparently - so the game crashes.
The second is the revolt risk line in the u035.inc - im not exactly sure whats wrong here as ive never seen any other .inc file with a revolt risk line before; but needless to say it causes a game crash.

You need the latest beta patch, as I have written in the readme.