Byzantium

[Medicine Man]

I'm a little worried about the Byzantium myself. Her geological position is a tough one, particularily for a country in the orthodox techgroup (naval research is hard). The Byzantine's options for expansion are also limited -- other than a few areas in the balkans, she is surrounded by wrong-culture/wrong-religion provinces. At the very least, the Empire will be a hard one to play -- although I suspect she'll still be a fan favorite. Lots of detailed events and a heritage that predates even the middle ages.

A while ago I tried to convince Archduke to transfer Anatolia from Candar to the Empire at the start of scenario -- I think I was convincing too, but the change dropped off the radar somewhere along the way.

I have some comments/suggestions/utter tripe:

1) Did the Byzantium lose their slavonic culture? For gameplay reasons alone, they should keep it, imo. They have as much right to it as Hungary, by Jove.

2) Ownership of province Anatolia in 1419. Is it possible to help the Empire out a bit?

3) Is it possible we could get some more opportunities for the Byzantine Empire to expand in the first few centuries? I'll elaborate:

**

As I understand it, there are the following distinct dynastic paths for the Byzantine Empire prior to Michael Doukas (1647).

1) Laskarides (1464) and Palaiogoloi (1524).
2) Laskarides (1464) and Kantakouzenos (1524). + one more choice in 1590
3) Palaiogoloi (1464) and Dauid Palaiogoloi (1513-21).
4) Palaiogoloi (1464) and Manoel Palaiogoloi (1513-21).

Option #4 is the strongest, granting turkish culture later in the game. Very useful given the limited tools the Empire has to expand. Both options #3 and #4 can get removed if Krete is annexed before 1464 or the AI simply choses not to press its claims (11% chance or so). This could be very disappointing in MP, as I suspect most will pursue Manoel's line.

I've been trying to think of other (plausible) options the Empire could have, preferrably tied to specific dynasties. Based on my Genoese event set, it could be possible for the Empire to gain some cores in Naples and italian culture. This would require trusting(!) and working with the Genoese and would only happen under a pro-Genoan, Palaiogoloi dynasty (paths #1 and #3). Italian culture would be the result of an epochal war and would be uncertain in SP, easy to very hard (depending on the human players) in MP. Genoa probably won't want to share Italy in MP though...

I have bits and pieces of other ideas, but I'm not sure what would be workable. ** A greater conflict with Hungary after the election of Ivan Boulgaros (#2 + Ivan in 1590), involving more shields for the Byzantium and possibly an extra culture if a decisive victory is won -- a magyar culture Byzantium is like a fish wearing clown shoes though. ** Perhaps Byzantine aid to the Protestants in Hungary blooming into a enterprise-level war of opportunity? ** Rebuilding the Kingdom of Armenia in the east? Armenian culture plus some culture changes on islamic provinces. Maybe tied to one of the Laskarides lines. ** Fueling an ethnic struggle in the Caliphate to get Kurdish culture, although this event would probably belong to the Manoel dynasty. ** Perhaps something like the Armenian option but for Georgia instead?

**

Anyhow... I've been talking for too long. I hope something here makes sense or is useful.
Cheers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well the genoese option really needs significant boost as at current it only gives few admirals as is lousy otherwise. I think that there is a significant carrot for Genoa to help Byzantium in pro-Genoa choices as the CoT moves first from Thrake to Athens and then later on Genoa can get Athens and the CoT. I could trigger the CoT-move to happen only if Genoa agrees to help Byza though. Italian culture and cores in Sicily-Naples would be quite significant boost. I don't think that would be doom for Sicily in most cases though as there are some cases of countries having cores on whole nation's homearea (like Spain / Austria in Holland) and still it's rarely seen that the nation is unviable as player nation.

Losing slavonic and gaining it with Boulgaroi was my idea to make Boulgaroi more viable option, but I guess it's not a good idea. Boulgaroi though really need something to make them compare to the other lines.

The Anatolia is not so big issue as Byzantium is likely to crush the turks during Komnenoi anyways. It has leaders and more economic power and afaik nobody is trying to war Byzantium early on.

About Krete existing, it seems that Byzantium's player should be aware of that necessity beforehand and if he wants to have Palaiologoi, he should make sure Krete does exist. Of course it opens some nasty window for exploiting foes who will take Krete by suprise very close to 1463 and keep it past the important date... I might tweak it so that Palaiologoi option is available always if Krete chose to press the claim in 1450.

I do plan to make Kantakouzenos line a good option too and the Genoa-interaction should make pro-Genoa Palaiologoi a reasonable alternative for pro-turk Manouel.

I think there is very little historical (or semi-historical) reasoning for adding cores into Hungary itself. Conflicts could be about ownership / religion of slavonic Balkans and Boulgaroi might give romanian culture (or was it removed?) and cores into that area. As a sort of "Ancient Bulgarian Claims".

I like the idea of reviving Armenia. It could be tied to Kantakouzenoi great period (before 1592) and cores around Caucasus. Maybe some conversion events in the appropriate area and changes to armenian culture if the revival is successful? Not in really big area with those conversions, just Armenia and perhaps one to three others around it.

There is little reasoning for kurdish though, as kurds are definetly moslems and rather far away from Byzantium's core area. There is the historical reasoning for Armenia as it once was part of the Empire, but kurds were never really subjects afaik. Also I feel Byzantium to be too haughty to not accept some odd foreigners for just opportunistic reasons.

Well, Georgia is an independent country afaik. If there are some plans to make it viable SP nation, putting Byzantium into crush it would not be nice. Maybe have "Revival of Georgia" if Georgia is destroyed or chance to offer vasallization to Georgia if it exists?

 

[Medicine Man]

Yep. I agree, Kurdish and Georgian culture don't make much sense. Neither does Magyar either. I'm just tossing idea about, really. I'm pretty sure there is no Romanian culture either -- the whole area is either Magyar or Slavonic now.

Greater Armenia = Armenia, Kurdistan, Dulkadir, and Adana? Armenian culture shift in these provs plus a conversion or two (maybe). Armenian culture for the Empire, natch. This plus the nice events could well make the Kantakouzenos an even competitor.

The Boulgaroi line: How about this? After becoming Emperor, Ivan renews his centuries old feud with the Hungarian dynasty. Byzantium gets cores on a big chunk of Hungary (and perhaps likewise). If the Byzantine Empire wins decisively, there are a good number of provinces that can become slavonic by event, as the bulgarian Emperor bends his efforts to subjugate the conquered people. What magyar provinces to target is a tough question -- perhaps Banat, Transylvannia, and Maros. Magyar, Pest and anything North-West of them should remain hungarian-culture.

Because this would be a crippling blow to the Huns, I suggest that there should be extra events to allow another major nation to become the defender of Hungary (some shields, culture), should the Byzantine Emperor crush them.

Now, about the Palaiogoloi and the Genoese. Most of the Genoese events work for either the early Palaiogoloi (1464) or the later (1513-21) but not if Manoel takes charge. I think I am going to make it a direct exchange, the Athenan CoT for Italian culture and some shields.

If we did all of those things, I do believe that a Palaiogoloi-Manoel, Palaiogoloi-Dauid or Laskarides-Palaiogoloi, Laskarides-Kantakouzenos/Boulgaros, Laskarides-Kantakouzenos/non-Boulgaros (for Armenia) options would all be almost balanced if these things were done.

Before I get back to work, some notes about Genoa:

* Genoa gains greek culture if a Palaiogoloi gets on the throne of the Empire.
* Genoa can change Alexandria, Kaffa and Kerch greek/orthodox by events, provided he can take them. Kaffa and Kerch require permission/support from the Byzantine Emperor. Seizing Alexandria also gives a core there to the Empire.
* Genoa has a better than average chance of absorbing Cyprus (ala Queen Charlotte of Venice) should the Kingdom of Lebanon have fallen. It isn't instantaneous: This takes the better part of 60 years to happen, counting from 1545 or so.
* If Crete is still independant by 1632 and the Palaiologoi get deposed (either non-Manoel branch), then Genoa inherits them when they seize Hellas and Morea

Genoa has quite a bit to gain from cooperating with the Empire. Once Michael Doukas takes over, all bets are off. I can imagine the two nations kicking the crap out of each other from that point onwards.

Cheers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

One thing to consider is Genoa needs some other options to pursue if Byzantium doesn't go pro-Genoa, but those other options should perhaps not be there if Byzantium-Genoa cooperation works.

Armenia should be always for Kantakouzenoi, happening before choosing Boulgaroi, so Boulgaroi can get Armenia too. Boulgaroi need to be balanced with Michael Doukas, as sticking with Boulgaroi dormants Michael Doukas and his beneficial things. Wars against Hungary based on ancient claims could be good for post 1650-Boulgaroi, but we must remember that Boulgaroi line is really damn unlikely. Byzantium has to go "unhistorical" with Palaiologoi-Kantakouzenos choice in 1520 and then minor state Bulgaria has to exist as late as 1570-1590 period.

About greek for Genoa, how about linking that with gaining Athens instead? Remember that not all Palaiologoi are pro-Genoa.

I thought to give inheriting Crete as one additional bonus for pro-Genoa Palaiologoi, maybe Genoa could inherit Crete in 1632 if Palaiologoi didn't go pro-Genoa or if Byzantium went for Kantakouzenoi?

Michael Doukas just clears the table, there is still potential for cooperation after that, but it is likely lesser in scope and Byzantium is more wary about it.

 

[Medicine Man]

One thing to consider is Genoa needs some other options to pursue if Byzantium doesn't go pro-Genoa, but those other options should perhaps not be there if Byzantium-Genoa cooperation works.

Genoa has a lot of options. Two or three of them require cooperation with the Empire. Another couple involve screwing the Empire around. It should balance out in the end.

Armenia should be always for Kantakouzenoi, happening before choosing Boulgaroi, so Boulgaroi can get Armenia too. Boulgaroi need to be balanced with Michael Doukas, as sticking with Boulgaroi dormants Michael Doukas and his beneficial things. Wars against Hungary based on ancient claims could be good for post 1650-Boulgaroi, but we must remember that Boulgaroi line is really damn unlikely. Byzantium has to go "unhistorical" with Palaiologoi-Kantakouzenos choice in 1520 and then minor state Bulgaria has to exist as late as 1570-1590 period.

Yes. That is a better way of doing it. Were I playing the Byzantium, I'd much rather avail myself of both Armenia and Hungary, rather than having to chose. Losing Michael Doukas isn't a good thing... but skipping the 15 years of chaos that preceeds him is just fine.

About greek for Genoa, how about linking that with gaining Athens instead? Remember that not all Palaiologoi are pro-Genoa.

You're right, giving the culture with the transfer of Athens makes more sense, but I have pretty strong gameplay reasons for wanting to do it my way.

Genoa will not often get greek culture in MP if we hinge it on the CoT transfer. Italian culture or no, most human-players are not going to cough up their center of trade. There is also a slim-to-fair chance that they will not get the culture in SP either. If the Empire steps off the most-likely path even once, Genoa loses.

Time is also a factor. 1634 is a long time to wait, 1464-1524 not so much.

At any rate, I regard the culture as representing an improved means of insinuating themselves into the region or perhaps expanded privilages. It would have to be, as I don't imagine even the "pro"-Genoa Palaiologoi much liked the Genoese. Theirs is a marriage of mutual benefit.

If you really don't like it, I'll consider handling Genoa some other way. But as it stands now, greek culture is pretty important for them. Several of their events involve restoring greek traditions to various territories.

I thought to give inheriting Crete as one additional bonus for pro-Genoa Palaiologoi, maybe Genoa could inherit Crete in 1632 if Palaiologoi didn't go pro-Genoa or if Byzantium went for Kantakouzenoi?

I dare someone who hasn't read the Byzantine monarch file to try following this dialog -- give me a second to try to understand what you're suggesting. Ahh, I see. So if Manoel takes power in 1521 or if the Palaiologoi never get in power at all, the Genoese eventually incorporate the island using their massive bankbook. Works for me.

Michael Doukas just clears the table, there is still potential for cooperation after that, but it is likely lesser in scope and Byzantium is more wary about it.

Particularily if Genoa is harboring the exiled Palaiologoi and used their help to seize Hellas and Morea. I imagine Doukas would have words for them in that case. But yes, nothing is guaranteed. Particularily if Genoa and the Empire have helped one another get Greek/Italian possessions, they will likely have reason to remain civil.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Yes. That is a better way of doing it. Were I playing the Byzantium, I'd much rather avail myself of both Armenia and Hungary, rather than having to chose. Losing Michael Doukas isn't a good thing... but skipping the 15 years of chaos that preceeds him is just fine.

Well, Boulgaroi don't skip the end time troubles of Kantakouzenoi, which are of much lesser magnitude than the grand pain of Palaiologoi Turmoil. Boulgaroi just really offer an option for the post-1650 Byzantium to go differently than Doukas way and there should be some benefits from that to compare with the benefits of Doukas.

If you really don't like it, I'll consider handling Genoa some other way. But as it stands now, greek culture is pretty important for them. Several of their events involve restoring greek traditions to various territories.

Well, they can have greek if it's important for the whole. I just were cautious of giving greek culture without a good reasoning, but you definetly have good reasoning for it.

I dare someone who hasn't read the Byzantine monarch file to try following this dialog -- give me a second to try to understand what you're suggesting. Ahh, I see. So if Manoel takes power in 1521 or if the Palaiologoi never get in power at all, the Genoese eventually incorporate the island using their massive bankbook. Works for me.

Well, the Palaiologoi in Crete are always Pro-Genoa sort, so if Byzantium doesn't go Pro-Genoa, the Crete Palaiologoi would likely be more willing to throw their lot with Genoa than Byzantium. We just have to remember that there is always a different Palaiologoi line in Crete than in Byzantium so Crete doesn't need to be a puppet of Byzantium.

Particularily if Genoa is harboring the exiled Palaiologoi and used their help to seize Hellas and Morea. I imagine Doukas would have words for them in that case. But yes, nothing is guaranteed. Particularily if Genoa and the Empire have helped one another get Greek/Italian possessions, they will likely have reason to remain civil.

Well, Doukas himself doesn't have anything particular against the Palaiologoi, as his rule is absolute enough for him to not worry about usurpation from them. If we would make the Palaiologoi give Athens CoT willingly to Genoa, instead of Genoa taking it by guile / force, there would be little reason for Byza and Genoa bash at each other.

 

[TheArchduke]

Well, it wasn't harsh, but I was just sort of "shocked" after I found that Sicily gets to practically double it's cores which are almost completely originally Byzantium territory in just one event.

It was only for the isles and considering what other nations in the normal GC sometime have as cbs right from the start, I thought it was lenient.

But you should definetly pay attention as to keep Byzantium navally viable as a player.

 

[Medicine Man]

Well, they can have greek if it's important for the whole. I just were cautious of giving greek culture without a good reasoning, but you definetly have good reasoning for it.

It is still ultimately the Byzantines who get to decide how much muscle Genoa has in the east as well. Should the Empire, under a well-informed human player, decide to shut the Palaiologoi out of power completely, then Genoa just has to sod off.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I shall now present Revival of Armenia:

event = {
	id = 200195
	trigger = { monarch = 40184 }
	random = no
	country = BYZ
	name = "Plans to revive kingdom of Armenia"
	desc = "As emperor Konstantinos XII Kantakouzenos ruled a strong empire without internal challenges, some of his advisors approached him and presented him with ancient maps from the days when turkish invaders were unheard of. In the maps there was Armenia, which was a vassal kingdom of the Empire before it was overran by the Seljuks. The lands were nowadays mostly in control of various moslem tribes and the advisors of Konstantinos suggested that this would be a good cause to unite his subjects against a heathen enemy. Will Konstantinos pursue this excellent plan?"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = february year = 1548 }
	offset = 360
	deathdate = { day = 13 month = august year = 1592 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Armenia must be revived!"
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = armenian }
		command = { type = addcore which = 472 } # Armenia
		command = { type = addcore which = 473 } # Kurdistan
		command = { type = addcore which = 474 } # Sivas
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -1 } # Pressing ancient claims is not too innovative
		command = { type = domestic which = land value = 1 } # It's a land war
		command = { type = domestic which = offensive value = 1 } # It's also an offensive war
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = INF which = -1 value = 5000 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "We should concentrate on domestic issues instead"
		command = { type = stability value = 2 } # Peace is stabilizing
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
		command = { type = infra value = 1000 }
		command = { type = trade value = 500 }
		command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = goods }
		command = { type = gainmanufactory which = -1 value = refinery }
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 200196 } # Successful Revival
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 200197 } # Failed Revival
	}
}

This is the initializing event. The B-choice has big boosts too as this is the big event of Kantakouzenoi option. It has to compare to adding turkish. Daghestan and / or Sivas could be removed, if they seem too much.

Then if Byzantium successfully takes conquers all four provs before Konstantinos XII dies (1592):

event = {
	id = 200196
	trigger = {
	event = 200195
	owned = { province = 472 data = -1 }
	owned = { province = 473 data = -1 }
	owned = { province = 474 data = -1 }
	atwar = no
	}
	random = no
	country = BYZ
	name = "Kingdom of Armenia has been revived!"
	desc = "We finally have re-established imperial control in Armenia again, the Empire is truly great. Shall we exile these moslems living there to create homes for our armenian citizens to live in their ancestral homeland or shall we tolerate their presence in our land?"
	style = 1
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 13 month = august year = 1592 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Exile them"
		command = { type = revolt which = 473 }
		command = { type = conversion which = 472 } # If somebody has converted it
		command = { type = conversion which = 473 }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = 473 value = armenian }
		command = { type = population which = 473 value = -10000 } # Exiles
		command = { type = population which = 357 value = -10000 } # Armenians from Greece move to Armenia
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "Let them stay"
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = innovative value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = serfdom value = -1 }
	}
}

I didn't put cultural change, revolts or population loss in for Armenia province, as it starts as armenian in the scen.

If Konstantinos fails to revive Armenia during his lifetime:

event = {
	id = 200197
	trigger = {
	event = 200195
	NOT = { event = 200196 }
	}
	random = no
	country = BYZ
	name = "We have failed to revive Armenia"
	desc = "Although Konstantinos XII had grand plans for Armenia, they failed utterly and he will remembered as a failure."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 2 month = january year = 1593 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Unfortunate"
		command = { type = removecore which = 472 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 473 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 474 }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = armenian }
	}
}

I have tried them and they work. Well actually they did not work in first version, but as I have finally learned from my past mistakes somewhat, I debugged them first.

If four provinces feels too large, Daghestan and / or Sivas could be reduced from it. Or just from cultural conversion. This is quite a hard thing to do anyway as it requires to conquer four provinces in four decades, one of which starts as Caliphate territory, one of which starts as Golden Horde territory, so it steps on the toes of possibly two majors as well.

 

[TheArchduke]

Claims on Sivas are ok. Dagestan rather not.

And especially the culture change in Sivas, I dislike. Else nice event is in, as soon as those changes are done.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Did the changes (also to the post above) to the current version of major_byz and in addition did the change that Byzantium gets to choose between Palaiologoi and Laskarides in 1463 even if Crete doesn't exist then. Crete just has to press claims between 1450 and 1463 to get the choice.

 

[TheArchduke]

Check. They are in.

We must have one more big hungarian-byzantine conflict, but then we can consider it finished.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

We must have one more big hungarian-byzantine conflict, but then we can consider it finished.

Finished?

Is the Byza-Hungary conflict necessary, no matter what Byzantium chooses in it's dynasty messes?

 

[TheArchduke]

Well, it should involve gaining cores on Romania for Hungary, Ukraine and Byzanz.

I haven't thought it through up to now.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, I'd suggest it would be initated by either Hungary or Ukraine and Byzantium would react with "No, they are ours!" style of event...

 

[Medicine Man]

I hope you'll forgive me for saying so, Archduke, but it looks like the "Kingdom of Armenia" events just got pretty seriously nerfed. If the payoff is only one culture switch and three shields, it is not nearly as good an option as incorporating the turks -- and it seems odd to me that the Byzantine's best bet is to embrace the invaders.

Given the large number of armenians living in those regions up until WW1, I don't see why we can't de-turkify a few provs. It makes more sense than any of the nonsense I scripted up for Catalonia, at least, although perhaps the provinces targeted could be different.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, I based the four initial provinces partly to all maps I have seen of ancient Armenia every now and then and also to the area of CK duchy of Armenia (that is where I got idea to add Dagestan too). I admit that Sivas is a bit off, but corewise it makes a consistent whole.

 

[Medicine Man]

Well, I haven't done any research Byakhiam, so your guess is probably better than mine.

Truth be told, I don't know why I'm complaining. If we do exactly what Archduke wants and make Armenia, Georgia, et al. caucasian culture, the Empire will get 5-6 more state culture provinces with the Kingdom of Armenia event. CB shields or not, this is probably alot better than anything I'd do.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Truth be told, I don't know why I'm complaining. If we do exactly what Archduke wants and make Armenia, Georgia, et al. caucasian culture, the Empire will get 5-6 more state culture provinces with the Kingdom of Armenia event. CB shields or not, this is probably alot better than anything I'd do.

Well, I don't know does Archduke really want to encourage Byzantium to gobble up Georgia or not. Making it all caucasian and giving it to Byza later is like "Hey, want to eat Georgia up? It's correct culture and correct religion, mmm....". If that is ok, with Archduke, I won't be complaining either.

 

[Medicine Man]

Well, I don't know does Archduke really want to encourage Byzantium to gobble up Georgia or not. Making it all caucasian and giving it to Byza later is like "Hey, want to eat Georgia up? It's correct culture and correct religion, mmm....". If that is ok, with Archduke, I won't be complaining either.

It does seem to be what AD wants, judging from his most recent posts. Annnnd it does give the Byzantines more options for expansion, which they really, really need... soooooo...