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Naval Tech Tree Update/Status

Just to let y'all know what is happening on my end...

I am working on debugging, and have about 1/6 of the tech tree up and running smoothly. Hopefully the rest will go just as smoothly.

Had to create two new units. THey were required because the program doesn't figure that a country wouldn't have the ability to build destroyers or transports (go figure). Made the Coastal Cargo Vessel as an entry level transport with minimal range and cargo carrying ability. I also created the Coastal Gunboat as an entry level destroyer, also with minimal range and limited combat capability. I have made them expensive to build relative to their ability to prevent minor nations from acquiring fleets of these and to encourage the building of later (more realistic) models for convoy duty.

That is where thing are as of this moment. MDow
 
Model Names

Do people prefer nation specific class names for ships, or do you all prefer generic titles for the types of warships? It can be done either way for most of the major nations. I just want to know what you want so we can all enjoy the end product. MDow
 
Country specific classnames please

If it is easy to do then why not at least for the major nations. :D
 
SBS marine units

MDow, are you sure it's a good idea to create whole divisions of Special Forces? After all special forces were never that size - even after war biggest special forces units were Spetsnaz brigades, but it was for logistics purposes only - they always operated in small teams.
Maybe better solution is just adding bonus to shore and fortification attack of whole marine division?
 
Re: SBS marine units

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
MDow, are you sure it's a good idea to create whole divisions of Special Forces? After all special forces were never that size - even after war biggest special forces units were Spetsnaz brigades, but it was for logistics purposes only - they always operated in small teams.
Maybe better solution is just adding bonus to shore and fortification attack of whole marine division?

Done. Made it just a 10% bonus instead of a seperate unit. MDow
 
MateDow's Mod

Hello all;

Mate, I've been looking at your proposed mod with some interest. I like many of the things you've suggested, especially the following: Naval Architecture, Naval Engineering and many of your carrier operation applications. The applications I was most pleased to see, though, were the additions of MILITARY transports and amphibious warfare ships. I couldn't believe that the only transports in the game are generic, non-militarized commercial transports. I also liked the inclusion of more and varied types of ships within each class. I think this more accurately reflects the evolution of ship types. (I.E. 1000 ton DD's, 1500 ton DD's, 2000 ton DD's, etc...)

Some suggested changes.
- Some of your applications are more akin to Doctrines rather
than technical innovation/improvements. Therefore, I suggest
placing several in Naval Doctrines. Examples, Shore-based
Infrastructure, Naval Logistics, many of your carrier operations
suggestions. I'm also considering whether "training" apps
should be Doctrines instead. (Naval Infantry Training,
Amphibious Assault Training)

- Your question over whether some improvements should add
a '+1', or whatever versus only using them to allow improved
types. Most, notice the word 'most', new system types and
upgrades should NOT add an increase except upon upgrade,
and some, like major ship systems, should ONLY allow new
types. The reason is, that retrofitting a ship that was not
originally designed to employ a system was extremely difficult
and costly and thus should require a rebuild and a .

- I intend to modify the innovation 'Naval refueling ships' to
increase the range of all ships. Likewise, the resupply and
ammunition ships should slightly reduce supply comsumption
for all types. I'd really like Paradox to make supply vessels
sources of supply while at sea, until the sealift capacity of fuel
and supplies are exhausted.

All in all, I intend to use your mod entirely, only reworking when things are available and reorganizing it a bit. I also intend to move some of the apps to Doctrines. In addition, I am still trying to find and elegant, realistic solution to the max speed vs. range dilemna. Most warships, depending on conditions tended to cruise at half the top speed. If we modify all ships to have a speed roughly equal to half their top speed, then the ranges specified by paradox originally need little modification. If you want ships to be able to cruise at faster speeds, then the range, fuel consumption, and supply consumption need to be modified. Another consideration, American DE's were capable of 18 knots, max. If the Germans develop advanced, fast submarines, then DE's would become all but useless. (In fact, this is exactly what happened after the war when the Soviets began fielding their 'Type XXI' submarines.) So, to better simulate the effect that speed had on submarine survival, faster submerged speeds should equal a higher Sea Defense rating.

Any thoughts and work on the range/speed issues, sub vs. escort issues are greatly appreciated. One last note, the Alaska class ships were BATTLECRUISERS! Their ship numbers began with BC. Also, they were heavily armored compared to other nation's BCs. Truly, they were Iowa class BB's that someone had rinsed in hot water instead of cold. I call them the 'territory' ships as all the BC class were named after US Territories (Alaska, Guam, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands).
 
Feedback

Thank you for the feedback.

The plan for range enhancements is to make the underway refueling doctrine give a range bonus rather than a supply reduction bonus. Right now I am looking at from 2000 nm (destroyer) to 6000 nm (battleships) range increase for underway refueling. That will allow ships to truly operate in the Pacific. Until then, you'd better have some bases because your escorts won't be able to operate effectivly.

Range vs Speed- Here are my thoughts on the issue. Ships didn't run at fulll speed for extended periods of time, but they also didn't zig-zag wildly around the ocean. If you look at courses that are plotted for naval units you will notice that they are probably 60% farther than if you plotted a direct course between two locations. That means that although the ships are moving faster than reality, they are travelling farther.

In the version of the tech tree that I am typing up for inclusion in CORE 0.2, system improvements like an improved radar or weapons system is an upgrade. Tactical improvements or an easy fix (like mounting a new radio) are added upon research. Physical changes (like a new engine system) are only added into new models.

Drop me a PM with which applications that you fell would make better doctrines than applications (with a case to support it) and those changes can be incorperated relatively quickly.

As for the Alaska she was classed as CB. That was Cruiser (Large), but I already made my case earlier so I won't bore people with it again.

Thank you for the feedback. MDow
 
Tech Tree Update

The tech tree is finished! :D

I have gotten it to load several times without error and will be working at playtesting it for balance when I have the major nation's OOBs finished. I have finished the US OOB and am working on the UK and Germany right now.

Some of the changes from the posted versions...

No more Naval Special Forces divisions
Merged Basic Warship Designs and Great War Designs
Cut some techs that were dead ends
Added new destroyer and transport models
Renumbered the techs to not conflict with Paradox model numbers
Added interconnections with artillery, light aircraft, and other trees

That is just a taste. I am sure Copper Nicus will annouce when it is available for testing from his website, and hopefully it will be bug free in time for 0.2 ;) MDow
 
Naval Mod

Hello all;

Mate, here is a more detailed outline of what I had in mind. I hope its helpful to you. I'm sure your knowledge of historical naval technology is better than mine, so I'll defer to your judgment on the value of this mod.

MAJOR CHANGE:
No pre-WWI ship development or ship types. All nations are assumed to have pre-WWI and WWI ships as their default ship types and technology base. I make this recommendation because of the 12 level limit on technology trees. Also, I think you'll agree that there is enough in the tree, cost wise, to prevent minors from developing modern warships during the game.

CONCEPTIONS:
1) Major level headings = scientific and technical theory
2) Tech. applications = applied and developed science
3) Doctrines = operations, training, use and applications of
the technology. Also includes operational theory alone.

6000 - Basic Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering
(This is WWI tech. and beyond, to approx. 1930)
- Hull design and marine dynamics
- Armor design and configuration
- Compartmentalization
- Protected systems
- Basic oil-fired steam plant
- Multi-staged reciprocating engine
- Basic geared steam turbines

6100 - Naval Armaments and Systems
- Wireless Telegraphy
- Early radio navigation aids and direction finding
- +1 to all detect stats (all types)
- Hydrophones and early ASDIC
- allows a value of '1' in sub detect
- Depth charges
- allows a value of '1' in sub attack
- Basic optical rangefinders
- Dreyer fire-control tables
- Gun directors
- Light anti-aircraft armament
- allows a value of '1' in air attack
- "Long" range torpedos (Weymouth MkIII, 10Km @ 29Knots)
- +1 to sea attack
- Early seaplane carriers
- Permits later carrier doctrines
- Aircraft catapults
- Arrester wires

6200 - Basic Shipbuilding (Wash. Treaty ships)
(Will include amphibious warfare developments later)
- Cruiser conversions (excellent speed and defense)
- 1000 ton DDs (low ASW, AA, and sea attack)
- 1500 ton fleet DDs (low ASW, AA, med. sea attack)
- 7500 ton LCs (6" guns, low AA, no ASW)
- 10000 ton CAs (8" guns, low AA. no ASW)
- 35000 ton BCs (represent WWI leftovers, not new builds)
- 25000 ton BBs (represent WWI leftovers)
- Various transports (commercial and military)

6300 - Refined Naval Architecture and Engineering
(represents 1930 - 1940 approximately)
- Refined warship hull design
- Refined armor protection design
- +1 to air and sea defense (U) (all types)
- Better underwater protection
- +1 to sea defense (U) (all types)
- Refined damage control systems
- Refined boiler efficiency
- small range increase (U) (all types)
- Multi-staged steam turbines
- small speed increase (U) (all types)
- Refined Diesel engines
- increase range and speed (U) (Transports only)
- Diesel generators
- increases as you specified (U)

6400 - Refined Naval Armaments and Systems
- MF/HF radios
- +1 to sea defense, increases visibility (U) (all types)
- High frequency direction finder "Huff Duff"
- +1 to all detects (U) (all types)
- Basic ASDIC and refined hydrophones
- +1 to sub detect (U) (all ASW ships)
- K-guns
- +1 to sub attack (U) (all ASW ships)
- Stereoscopic rangefinders
- Refined gun directors
- +1 to sea attack (U) (all types)
- Turreted secondary armament
- Basic secondary battery directors
- +1 to sea attack (U) (all types)
- Additional anti-aircraft armament
- +1 to air attack (U) (all types)
- Oxygen and electric powered torpedos
- Refined long ranged torpedo
- +1 sea attack (all types)

6500 - Refined Shipbuilding (post Wash. Treaty ships)

The progession continues like this with "Improved" and
"Advanced", each category adding new systems and capabilties as they become available.

The "Improved" series would cover 1940-1944, approximately.
While "Advanced" would cover from 1944-1950, more or less.

I'm strongly urging the removal of nuclear powered ships from the possible builds. The game does not adequately represent the true costs of developing nuclear power nor is it even remotely feasible within the time limit of 1948. The 12 level limit on the tech trees is also a limitation. As a side note, I'm urging that CORE double the costs of all nuclear power tech developments.

Now don't get me wrong, I think a nuclear powered, missile and gun armed battleship with its own ASW aircraft would be the coolest thing since sliced bread, but its pure fantasy to believe that is a possibility by 1948, even for the USA.

If I get a positive response, I'll post the rest of the tree and include IC costs and times for each improvement. Ship costs in IC and time are as MateDow posted.

Thanks.
 
FWIW

I have a copy of "Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946" if anyone needs references for RealWorld (TM) data on classes, 3's in class, launch dates, commission dates, etc. Just drop me an email or PM with the required Q's and I can refernce them to Conway's.
 
Re: FWIW

Originally posted by JRaup
I have a copy of "Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946"

I just need to convince my wife that it is a necessary investment :D

I already have the first two in that series and have loved them as a reference. Thank you for your help. MDow
 
Re: Re: FWIW

Originally posted by MateDow
I just need to convince my wife that it is a necessary investment :D

I already have the first two in that series and have loved them as a reference. Thank you for your help. MDow

My pleasure sirrah. ;)

And of course it's a worthy investment. :D

Just tell her it will keep you so occupied that you won't even notice that nice new woman who moved next door. ;)

OK, so it didn't work for me.....

:D
 
Countries unable to build ships

These are the countries that I have figured didn't have the technology to build commercial and naval vessels or any of the equipment associated with them. I have based this on the countries not having built vessels or attempting to build vessels. I am not saying that some these countries didn't operate navies, just that they had to order new vessels from an established maritime power. MDow

Afganistan
Albania
Argentina
Austria (not Austro-Hungarian Empire)
Bhutan
Bolivia
Brazil
Bulgaria
Chile
China
Costa Rica
Cuba
Czeckoslovakia
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
Estonia
Ethiopia
Finland
Greece
Guatamala
Haiti
Honduras
Hungary (not Austro-Hungarian Empire)
Ireland
Iraq
Latvia
Liberia
Lithuania
Luxumberg
Manchuquo
Mexico
Monacco
Nepal
New Zealand
Nicarragua
Oman
Panama
Paraguay
Persia (Iran)
Peru
Phillipeanes
Poland
Romania
El Salvador
Saudi Arabia
Siam
Sinkiang (sp?)
South Africa
Switzerland
Tibet
Turkey
Uruguay
Venesuela
Yemen
Yugoslavia

If you want to make a case for removal of one of these countries let me know. If there is somebody missing of this list (you mean it isn't long enough??!?) let me know. MDow
 
Re: Countries unable to build ships

Hmmm, you have put Poland on the list...

Poland had shipyard industry since 1920's (Gdynia port). Armed vessels of destroyer and submarine class were usually aquired from foreign shipyards, but commercial shipbuilding was on basic level. Also in 1939 Poland was preparing for starting construction of first home-built destroyers...

So - some basic techs should be enough (I'll post you Polish Naval OOB anyway).
 
Re: Countries unable to build ships

Originally posted by MateDow
These are the countries that I have figured didn't have the technology to build commercial and naval vessels or any of the equipment associated with them. I have based this on the countries not having built vessels or attempting to build vessels. I am not saying that some these countries didn't operate navies, just that they had to order new vessels from an established maritime power. MDow


If you want to make a case for removal of one of these countries let me know. If there is somebody missing of this list (you mean it isn't long enough??!?) let me know. MDow
i disagree... according to the "Armada de la Republica Argentina" Site...

En 1935, se puso la quilla a la primera de una serie de nueve rastreadores de fabricación argentina, inspirados en los alemanes, cuya primera unidad fue el "Bouchard" y la última el "Fournier". A esta serie seguiría otra de cuatro rastreadores minadores construidos en Río Santiago y de los cuales los dos primeros fueron replanteados como patrulleros ("King" y "Murature") y los dos siguientes como fragatas ("Azopardo" y "Piedra Buena") Los primeros se incorporaron en 1946 y los últimos recién en 1956

translation by Google:
In 1935, the keel was put to first of a series of nine dredges of Argentine manufacture, inspired by the Germans, whose first unit was the "Bouchard" and last "Fournier". This series it would follow another one of four tracking sappers constructed in "Santiago River" (Rio Santiago) and of which both first patrol crafts ("King"and "Murature") and both following were reframed as as frigates ("Azopardo"and "Piedra Buena") first were gotten up in 1946 and the last ones just in 1956

so, Rio Santiago was the port for constructing naval vessels... ;)
However, i think we will never be able to build a battleship for example.... :(
 
Re: Countries unable to build ships

Originally posted by MateDow
These are the countries that I have figured didn't have the technology to build commercial and naval vessels or any of the equipment associated with them. I have based this on the countries not having built vessels or attempting to build vessels. I am not saying that some these countries didn't operate navies, just that they had to order new vessels from an established maritime power. MDow

Greece was able to build her own commercial and small class ships (DD's etc).

Same would apply to Poland, Romania, and Argentina, AFAIK.

South Africa had large scale shipyards, as the RN at times used them to build ships away from Britain, in an attempt to "hide" their construction.

Brazil was able to build its own capital ships, and did.

Others look fine with out digging some.
 
Thank yous

This is why I ask. I will add these changes into the various OOBs. Thank you for all of your help.

Changes to be made

Argentina- Basic Naval and Commerical Construction, basic transport design (in 1936) with basic engines, and small tramp contruction.

Same changes for Greece and Romania.

Poland- Basic Naval and Commercial Construction, basic transport design, basic destroyer design with basic engines, 102mm naval guns, then small tramp steamer and 1000 ton destroyer construction.

Same changes for South Africa.

Does that sound fair? MDow