C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: German pre-ordered ships

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
Ive started a game of techmod +.21 and noticed the preordered ships that germany has i believe 4BB 2Cruisers and 2 destroyers.

They have reduced IC cost and Increased production time.

Those ships are the part of German Z-Plan (or any other letter, I don't really remember), and the times finishing ships are historical. I like it this way.
Of course player can scrap the ships and start research instead - that's his decision. But probably no one would miss the chance to get Bismarck and Tirpitz at historical date.

 

[MateDow]

Re: German pre-ordered ships

Originally posted by Ghost_dk


They have reduced IC cost and Increased production time.

This takes out a huge chunk(40IC) of the german production from the start.

That was the idea

Most players dont want to put this much IC in ships from the start and down prioretise them.

They can also cancel them and focus on land units as well. But they will lose the 'cheap' ships.

as a player i have the choice of cancelling the ships and reordering them again at reduced time and increased IC. if i then downprioritise them as with the preordered ones i actially get them faster.

That is your choice as the player how you want to prioritize your spending and building.

The Z-Plan ships are in there for historical flavor. Not to force a player to play with historical navies. At the beginning of the game you have the priorities that were set by your predessor (whomever that is), but after your ascension to power you can do things your way. MDow

 

[Ghost_dk]

pre ordered ships

hi Copper and mateDow

I dont mind the ships are there but after doing some math i found out that the IC price payed is way to much

Even if we asume all of them were layed down on 1 jan. 36(i assume some even before that.) then the IC cost just dont match up with the one paid for a new ship of the same type.

I calculated and came up with an extra cost of around 9600 IC.(not counting the days prior to jan 1. 36. they will further increase the cost). This is the same as 7IC/day for the first 4 years of the game.

if you can supply me with some dates on when the ships were first laid down i can calculate what the real IC costs should be.

Ghost_DK

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: pre ordered ships

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
if you can supply me with some dates on when the ships were first laid down i can calculate what the real IC costs should be.

I'm sure Mike will supply you with the dates, but I checked costs and currently whole naval program is about 1000 IC cheper than when you start building those ships separately.
I undestand that when you add minister discount (10% for large ships) to the equation, then in fact separate ships are cheaper.

I'm not sure if it's serious problem though - those 40IC fastly shrink (first ship is finished in 1936, 50% of them are finished until the end of 1938). At least AI never had problem with that.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Re: Re: pre ordered ships

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
I'm sure Mike will supply you with the dates, but I checked costs and currently whole naval program is about 1000 IC cheper than when you start building those ships separately.
I undestand that when you add minister discount (10% for large ships) to the equation, then in fact separate ships are cheaper.

I'm not sure if it's serious problem though - those 40IC fastly shrink (first ship is finished in 1936, 50% of them are finished until the end of 1938). At least AI never had problem with that.

Ok I simply had to go home and do some math.

This is what i came up with.

The ones marked with a # i assume are laid down prior to 1.jan 36.

The ones marked with ¤ I think should be recalculated to pay maximum the total price of a new ship maybe even lover if they were laid down prior to 1.jan.36

Post Treaty BB
__________________
Ship IC X Days = Total IC cost
New ship order 18 750 13500
Bismark# 8 1674 13395
Tirpitz¤ 8 1855 14840

Treaty BB
__________________
New ship order 16 710 11360
Scharnhorst# 6 1087 6522
Gneisenau# 6 861 5166

Treaty Heavy Cruiser
__________________
New order ship 6 350 2100
Adm. Hipper¤ 4 1651 6604
Blucher¤ 4 1169 4676

1500T destroyer
__________________
new order ship 3 150 450
Z-36# 2 55 110
Z-38¤ 2 875 1750


As you can see many of these total costs are way off I think the worst one is Adm. hipper where i can buy 3 ships of the same class for the price that im paying now.
Also Z-38 can pay for nearly 4 new destroyers.

If i get the correct dates i dont mind doing the math and calculating the rignt price.

Im looking forward to seeing arguments as to why not

Peace Y

Ghost_Dk

P.S. i didnt even use minister discounts in these number they would only make it worse.

 

[unmerged(13933)]

Germany naval OOB

Huh! Seems there's a bit balancing to be done here. I created the list in my previous post partly using the info in this site and also this other site. Check them out for the dates. Although they should be correct.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Re: pre ordered ships

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
Post Treaty BB
__________________
Ship IC X Days = Total IC cost
New ship order 18 750 13500
Bismark# 8 1674 13395
Tirpitz¤ 8 1855 14840

Ok, but "New ship order" should be doubled (two ships, not one)... same with all BB's, crusiers and destroyers. So in summary you pay almost the same.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: pre ordered ships

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Ok, but "New ship order" should be doubled (two ships, not one)... same with all BB's, crusiers and destroyers. So in summary you pay almost the same.

no no im looking at each ship individually.

one new treaty BB is 13500 IC
Bismark costs 13392 with the price paid in the mod
tirpitz costs 14840 way more then a new order

you cant just look at them as one order thats wrong IMO
construction off all ships were not started on the same day and didnt take same amount of time to finish either. even with same type of ship.

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: pre ordered ships

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
you cant just look at them as one order thats wrong IMO
construction off all ships were not started on the same day and didnt take same amount of time to finish either. even with same type of ship.

Ok, you are right. But we can't simply cut 1 IC point in case of every mayor ship - that would be too big change favouring player (Minister bonus is 10%, and 1/8 or 1/6 is much more...). We could change dates of finishing ships, but that would make unhistorical results... No idea how to solve this...
Again, is it so much problem? I always hear that playing Germany is too easy... well from now it's not.

 

[Ghost_dk]

I found the Keel times for the ships on feldgrau

Bismark
laid down 1. july 1936
price is ok. if you divide the time from game start until it is comisioned(1674 days) into the total new price(13500) then you get a price of 8.06 IC a day so this one is ok IMO

Tirpitz
laid down 2. nov. 1936
if dividing the production time(1855) into the price(13500) it should be 7.3 IC a day. I dont think the game takes fractions so if we leave this one at 8 we can decrease the next 2 ships

Scharnhorst
laid down 14. feb. 1934
production time(1762) into price (11360) you get 6.4 IC a day. we should leave this one at 6

Gneisenau
laid down 14. feb. 1934
production time(1536) into price(11360) you geet 7.3 IC a day. we should raise this one to 7 IC a day

Adm. Hipper
laid down 6. july. 35
production time (1825) into price(2100) you get 1.15 IC a day
we should lower cost to 1 IC a day on this one

Blucher
laid down 15 aug. 36
production time (1169) from game start into price(2100) you get
1.8 IC a day. we should lower cost to 2 IC a day on this one

destroyers.

these are hard to tell becaus according to feldgrau 16 Z1 type destroyers were laid down between 3. july, 34 and 14. jan, 36

I dont know how many destroyers go into a destroyer unit in hoI

if assume the 55 day z-36 is some of the first then production time is around 500 days into the price of 450 we can safely give this one the price of 1 IC a day

if we assume the z38 is the rest then the production time is around 900 days this gives us a price of 0.5 but since we cant count in fractions the price should be no higher then 1 IC a day

Hope you will take this into consideration

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
(...)if assume the 55 day z-36 is some of the first then production time is around 500 days into the price of 450 we can safely give this one the price of 1 IC a day

if we assume the z38 is the rest then the production time is around 900 days this gives us a price of 0.5 but since we cant count in fractions the price should be no higher then 1 IC a day

Hope you will take this into consideration

Looks ok, I will try those values.

 

[MateDow]

German OOB Negotiation

Here is my idea (solution). It is mostly because I like symmtery in building programs

Keep Bismarck and Tirpitz as they are now

Keep the completion dates on Scharnhosrt and Gniesenau the same but make the cost for each ship 6 IC (bear with me).

Keep the completion dates in Blutcher and Adm Hipper the same but make the cost per ship 2 IC (difference in cost made up by reducing the cost of Gniesenau).

Make costs for the destroyer units 1 IC but keep the completion dates the same.

How is that for a solution? I have seen that one destroyer unit is equal to about 5 destroyers. MDow

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: German OOB Negotiation

Originally posted by MateDow
Here is my idea (solution). It is mostly because I like symmtery in building programs

Keep Bismarck and Tirpitz as they are now

Keep the completion dates on Scharnhosrt and Gniesenau the same but make the cost for each ship 6 IC (bear with me).

Keep the completion dates in Blutcher and Adm Hipper the same but make the cost per ship 2 IC (difference in cost made up by reducing the cost of Gniesenau).

Make costs for the destroyer units 1 IC but keep the completion dates the same.

How is that for a solution? I have seen that one destroyer unit is equal to about 5 destroyers. MDow

Also good. Ok, Tomorrow I'll post corrected version - adding to that all the latest changes I think that's would be the final version before CORE 0.3.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Re: German OOB Negotiation

Originally posted by MateDow
(...)
How is that for a solution? I have seen that one destroyer unit is equal to about 5 destroyers. MDow

Sounds good to me with the prices.

if one destroyer units is five ships then perhaps we should add a third one with finish date somewhere between the other 2?
according to feldrau there were 16 z1 destroyers laid down before jan 14 1936
looking forward to 0.3

Ghost_dk

 

[MateDow]

Re: Re: German OOB Negotiation

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
Sounds good to me with the prices.

if one destroyer units is five ships then perhaps we should add a third one with finish date somewhere between the other 2?
according to feldrau there were 16 z1 destroyers laid down before jan 14 1936
looking forward to 0.3

Ghost_dk

I don't see any problem with that. MDow

 

[Steel]

Subs and Transports

Is anybody looking at the submarine tech tree? I think they are probably the most unbalanced unit in HOI right now, although transports may be close


Was anything done in the Naval mod about the issues with transports being very good combatants when massed?

 

[MateDow]

Transports

Transports have been relegated to the role of target. They all have offense and defense of 0 except for the dedicated attack transport. I have not seen the game even notice the difference between the different loading capacities of the transports that are now included with the game, but they are in there if it does. As for submarines, I don't know as much about that branch of the service, but I can start doing some research sometime in the future. Now that the techmod is temporarily 'finished' I want to start figuring out how to write and test events so I can finish the naval event set. If there is someone out there that is already familier with the submarine service I am willing to do the typing and data entry if someone can come up with the out line of the data. MDow

 

[Steel]

Try this: as Japan, mass 30 transports and go hunting for the Chinese CA/DD fleet. See what happens when you engage them. I'll test it as well, basically the problem (at least in vanilla HOI) is that there is no such thing as 0 attack.

 

[MateDow]

I will have to watch one of those battles specifically. I has seen a fews battles with my protected cruisers (commerce raiders) and British convoys that looked like the slaughters that they were supposed to be, but I hadn't seen offensive merchant tactics yet. I will let you know. MDow

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by MateDow
I will have to watch one of those battles specifically. I has seen a fews battles with my protected cruisers (commerce raiders) and British convoys that looked like the slaughters that they were supposed to be, but I hadn't seen offensive merchant tactics yet. I will let you know. MDow

About offensive transports - what about seriously lowered org value for all transports? For now those ships got org values similar to fighting vessels. After some reading of Math guy threads I believe that lowering org of transports (and subs, BTW) can be solution.
It would result in serious modification of naval_doctrines effects (max. org of transports and subs should never be higher than 30%), but in result transports and subs would not be able to fight long, in effect retreating ASAP. In case of subs it would simulate short but violate nature of subs attacks, in case of transports - dispersing convoys.

What's more - subs won't be able to operate forever. Every loss of org will be crtical.