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C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

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Well you dont need any lower org for subs when UK navalbombers harass your subs before they get out of their range. I dont want to mix subs and surface ships but I guess I will have to because subs got no chances against those naval bombers. How many subs are in subflotilla? Maybe 4? How many navalbombers are in one unit? 50-100?

Just something to think about.
 
Originally posted by Icer
Well you dont need any lower org for subs when UK navalbombers harass your subs before they get out of their range. I dont want to mix subs and surface ships but I guess I will have to because subs got no chances against those naval bombers. How many subs are in subflotilla? Maybe 4? How many navalbombers are in one unit? 50-100?

Just something to think about.
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Yeah, that is a problem - but when org is low, then (at least in naval battle) unit exits fight faster, right? Not sure how it works in air-naval battle, and especially in air-sub battle. If it works as a standard bombardment, then subs are got no chance no matter how high is their org, if on naval rules - contact is lost fast and subs withdraw (which is good).

BTW, in my games I always try to be as far from coast of Brittain as possible. :D
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Yeah, that is a problem - but when org is low, then (at least in naval battle) unit exits fight faster, right? Not sure how it works in air-naval battle, and especially in air-sub battle. If it works as a standard bombardment, then subs are got no chance no matter how high is their org, if on naval rules - contact is lost fast and subs withdraw (which is good).

BTW, in my games I always try to be as far from coast of Brittain as possible. :D
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In last few games I had 6-10 sub units which I split into groups of 1-2 units so that I could cover greater area. Its great if you can get your subs into the atlantic ocean before the war starts. But when war starts you have to go around the British isles and the canal is not an option. So you can possibly get your subs into the atlantic ocean or back to base unnoticed, but its rare nowadays.

The navalbombers can reach as far as the canary islands if I recall it right and they do fly there just because I got subs there. and the sea area just nw from Ireland and UK is the worst place.

Subs are the slowest naval units therefore they retreat slowly. If its possible to reduce subs visibility without screwing the whole naval system(IMO its quite close as it is) it could help at least a bit.
 
Originally posted by Icer
In last few games I had 6-10 sub units which I split into groups of 1-2 units so that I could cover greater area. Its great if you can get your subs into the atlantic ocean before the war starts. But when war starts you have to go around the British isles and the canal is not an option. So you can possibly get your subs into the atlantic ocean or back to base unnoticed, but its rare nowadays.
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It's quite historical, you know. What bothers me more is that there is no sense in creation of small stacks of subs - bigger stack are always more effective (I use 10-12 units stacks), and always detect convoys (total nonsense, some randomness here would balance stack problem nicely).

Originally posted by Icer
Subs are the slowest naval units therefore they retreat slowly. If its possible to reduce subs visibility without screwing the whole naval system(IMO its quite close as it is) it could help at least a bit.
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Don't know, I'll check that. Today I spoted interesting info about modding units stats right in inc files, so maybe sub visibility can be lowered there? Right now basic naval bombers are way too good against subs simply because subs are spotted to often.
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
It's quite historical, you know. What bothers me more is that there is no sense in creation of small stacks of subs - bigger stack are always more effective (I use 10-12 units stacks), and always detect convoys (total nonsense, some randomness here would balance stack problem nicely).
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Well I think so too. The big stack problem is the biggest concern in the naval combat system.

Don't know, I'll check that. Today I spoted interesting info about modding units stats right in inc files, so maybe sub visibility can be lowered there? Right now basic naval bombers are way too good against subs simply because subs are spotted to often.
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I have not seen any other way to alter the visibility than modifying the unit file or the techs. If I remember it right the sub visibility was raised because they were too effective? I'm not at all so sure about their effectivenes.
 
Originally posted by Icer
I have not seen any other way to alter the visibility than modifying the unit file or the techs. If I remember it right the sub visibility was raised because they were too effective? I'm not at all so sure about their effectivenes.
Click to expand...

In normal naval battle (MDoW naval mod) subs work fine - low number of destroyers means doom for surface fleet, while several DD's can quickly finish subs. What is not ok, is the duration of battle, but this can be solved by decrease of subs org. After all this kind of serious action would mean return to base ASAP.

It's also possible that we have bug here - possibly AI's land units "spot" subs and it make those deadly naval bombers attacks possible. :(
 
Originally posted by Icer
I have not seen any other way to alter the visibility than modifying the unit file or the techs. If I remember it right the sub visibility was raised because they were too effective? I'm not at all so sure about their effectivenes.
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To reduce visibility by 10 for Germany:
Code: 
country = { 
    tag = GER 
    upgrade = { 
        submarine = { visibility = -10.000 } 
    } 
}
These "upgrades" can be added to scenario files just as the are in savegame files. Org, speed, supply/fuel consumption, detection capabilities, and combat factors can be changed the same way.
 
Ok, thats cool! However I was thinking that if we modify sub visibility it shouldnt be too dramatic decrease. Maybe start testing with visibility lowered by 5. Also could we lower the navalbombers naval attack value? Would that go too far?
 
Originally posted by Icer
Ok, thats cool! However I was thinking that if we modify sub visibility it shouldnt be too dramatic decrease. Maybe start testing with visibility lowered by 5. Also could we lower the navalbombers naval attack value? Would that go too far?
Click to expand...

It's not that easy, you know - naval bombers are able to attack subs because those are visible ALREADY. If bombers not see them, not attack at all. Thing to remember (to fix) for the next release...
 
Originally posted by Riso
Naval Bombers can attack despite not seeing the units before reaching the province.
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No, that's not like that. Every naval and air unit got parameter "surfacedetectioncapability" which is used to check if they can find ships. Theoreticaly if they won't find ships, then they simply return to base. In practice they find ships almost everytime (even with "surfacedetectioncapability" = 1), subs included.
For now I know too little about subs detection model in HoI to surely say what should be changed to correct it, and I really don't do this by simple modifiaction of attack/defence statistics.
 
Naval Techmod

I have done a lot testing with Techmod so far. Looks and comes great. I think lowering org of subs should really ease the issue. Same goes for Transports. After researching I found out that Super-Battleships are buildable 1,5 years before Super-cruisers. That should not be that easy. There is a Tech in the Naval-tree (something with sight - can´t remember) Doesn´t look if there is a upgrade nor does it unlock something (Just wasted IC) at least for the AI.

IMO everything Nuclearpowerd should be dropped, it fits really not in this timeframe. if somehow is decided to extend the frame of CORE, I think you should provide a seperat mod. Right now (as it is - Nuclear Powered Ships as well as NP plants) would fit in the 50 to mid 60´s but not until 48.

MfG
Sonic
 
Portugal

I fell across something yesterday. Can i be true that portugal had nothing but transports in 1936. I dont know much about naval history but it strikes me as a little odd. i think i remember them having some destroyer flotilles at least in WIF.

maybe im wrong but could someone with the right book s please check it out.

Ghost_dk
 
The tech with no outlet is the Superiot Turret Optics tech (I don't have the number handy) and it should be a pre-req for post-treaty battleships. It somehow escaped my notice. Sorry about that.

Portugal should have a unit of 1000 ton destroyers (about 5 destroyers) in addition to their transports. If they are supposed to have more than this we can get that fixed.

I have been busy with family and work (how dare they interfere with my CORE addiction :) ) so I have been unable to work on the naval events for the minor nations. Hopefully this will be something I can attack soon. MDow
 
Re: Portugal

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
I fell across something yesterday. Can i be true that portugal had nothing but transports in 1936. I dont know much about naval history but it strikes me as a little odd. i think i remember them having some destroyer flotilles at least in WIF.

maybe im wrong but could someone with the right book s please check it out.

Ghost_dk
Click to expand...

Hmm, was it dropped in v0.4 then? They used to have some escorts assigned to convoys and also

Code: 
	navalunit = {
		id = { type = 14000 id = 9302 }
		name = "Portuguese Navy"
		location = 975
		division = { 
			id = { type = 14000 id = 9303 }
			name = "Douro Squadron"
			type = destroyer
			model = 0
			strength = 100
		}
		division = {
			id = { type = 14000 id = 9304 }
			name = "Submarine Fleet"
			type = submarine
			model = 0
			strength = 100 
		}
	}
 
Re: Portugal

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
I fell across something yesterday. Can i be true that portugal had nothing but transports in 1936. I dont know much about naval history but it strikes me as a little odd. i think i remember them having some destroyer flotilles at least in WIF.

maybe im wrong but could someone with the right book s please check it out.

Ghost_dk
Click to expand...

Portuguese Navy 1936 (Per Conway's):

Douro class DD's: 5 (7 in class, two sold in 1934)
Delfim class SS : (3)
Sloops (various classes): 5
 
About subs etc

@MateDow & Copper Nicus:

Have you checked this thread? Mathguy has some good ideas that could possibly be tried in CORE naval techs?
 
Re: About subs etc

Originally posted by Icer
@MateDow & Copper Nicus:

Have you checked this thread? Mathguy has some good ideas that could possibly be tried in CORE naval techs?
Click to expand...

Mathguy's threads are the must for any technology modder, but this one is new... thanks! :D

But since 1.05 is near, we have much to do with simple implementation CORE for the new patch:

" Tweaked naval taregetting algoritms."
Click to expand...

And land units:

" Landunits moving (not retreating) will loose about 1% of org each day."
Click to expand...

Second one totally overhauls whole game.
 
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