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C.O.R.E HOI - Sweden, Dennmark, Finnland, Norway, Iceland

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Originally posted by General FUp
Also, is there already an event that gives Finland a way out of the Continuation War? If Germany isn't faring well, there should be occasional events letting leader of Finland decide whether or not negotiate for separate peace with Soviet Union. Soviet player naturally could decline.. But if soviets accept, it would result in a war between Finland and Germany, which happened historically anyway.
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It's already there, but it rarely triggers, as it requires previous event, where decision about Continuation War is made. Usually Finland is bombarded by GER diplomatically, so they join Axis or join war before this event trigger, but if you play Finland and wait some time, the event will surely pop-up (of course, if you historically gave them what they wanted).


Perkele@:
Suomi MG was in common use in 1936? :confused:
 
Sweden seems to have quite a lot of Early War land doctrines at scenario start. Is this right?
 
IMO an interesting set of events could be the Soviet demand for the Petsamo area in 1940. After nickel (IIRC, some valuable metal industry wise) was found there the SU demanded that it should have control of them. This placed Finland in a bad situation as the mines were already owned by a Finno-Canadian mining company thus creating an incident with the Allies if Finland turned over the mines. Eventually due to German influence and the threat of war against Germany made the SU back down. For a while another war seemed possible if Finland didn't back down. The result of this incident was the beginning of a new warmer relationship with Germany, including the allowing of the formation of the Finnish SS-battalion.

Would this make a worthy addition?
 
Originally posted by Juba
IMO an interesting set of events could be the Soviet demand for the Petsamo area in 1940. After nickel (IIRC, some valuable metal industry wise) was found there the SU demanded that it should have control of them. This placed Finland in a bad situation as the mines were already owned by a Finno-Canadian mining company thus creating an incident with the Allies if Finland turned over the mines. Eventually due to German influence and the threat of war against Germany made the SU back down. For a while another war seemed possible if Finland didn't back down. The result of this incident was the beginning of a new warmer relationship with Germany, including the allowing of the formation of the Finnish SS-battalion.

Would this make a worthy addition?
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sounds interesting.


When in '40 was that?

Ghost_dk
 
Originally posted by Ghost_dk
sounds interesting.


When in '40 was that?

Ghost_dk
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July and August was the first time when the issue came up. The SU raised the number of divisions on the Finnish border from 15 to 22 and the Germans suspected that another war would start soon. The actual crisis happened with the real threat of war happened in January-February of 1941. Because of a trade deal in 1940 Finland had to sell 60% of the production to Germany and 40% to the USSR but the USSR wanted direct contol of the mines. After some negotiations the Soviets presented Finland an ultimatum that demanded Finland give the mines within two days. While this was happening German politicians had indicated to Finland that their interest in the nickel was great as well. The Finns wanted to give in to the USSR eventually but due to the advice and support of the Germans they decided to decline the Soviet offer.
 
Originally posted by Juba
July and August was the first time when the issue came up. The SU raised the number of divisions on the Finnish border from 15 to 22 and the Germans suspected that another war would start soon. The actual crisis happened with the real threat of war happened in January-February of 1941. Because of a trade deal in 1940 Finland had to sell 60% of the production to Germany and 40% to the USSR but the USSR wanted direct contol of the mines. After some negotiations the Soviets presented Finland an ultimatum that demanded Finland give the mines within two days. While this was happening German politicians had indicated to Finland that their interest in the nickel was great as well. The Finns wanted to give in to the USSR eventually but due to the advice and support of the Germans they decided to decline the Soviet offer.
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Nice. Ill have a look and see what can be done with this right after the weekend. Ill let you know what i come up with.

Ghost_dk
 
Originally posted by Ghost_dk
Nice. Ill have a look and see what can be done with this right after the weekend. Ill let you know what i come up with.

Ghost_dk
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I've already wrote some events about the Finnish SS-volunteers as practice for the big one, the nickel. I was planning to write that set as well but you can do it if you want :D I'll be away next week so I cant work on either set so here's a small guideline of my planned events if you want to work on them.

the number is an event and the letter is an option with the effect after the arrow

1. Winter War ends in the peace event giving Karelia to the Soviets -> 2a, 2b
2a. start of the nickel crisis -> SU demand control of Petsamo nickel mines -> 3a, 3b, 3c
2b. let it pass -> no effects set ends
3a. Finland negotiates, and delays -> 4a, 4b
3b. Finland accepts cedes Petsamo -> -DI +dissent
3c. Finland flat out rejects -> SU declares war
4a. Germany decides to support Finland -> 5
4b. Germany decides to appease SU -> 6
5. SU lets the issue pass -> recruitment of SS-volunteer event set
6. SU declares war (or makes an ultimatum)
 
Finnish Army

I am not sure wether or not this has been discussed before, but I will bring it up (again if done before).

I was looking at the classification of Mountain troops, and notice that they are very similar to the classification of many Finnish troops. Fairly lightly equipped, and meant for fast movement in difficult terrain. Mountain troops fought and were equipped very similarly to much of the Finnish army. I was wondering if we shouldn't change a certain number of Finnish Infantry Divisions to be Mountain divisions instead? These would primarily be the forces in the North, which were light reactionary troops of high quality, while those manning the Mannenheim Line were more static, and thereby closer to regular infantry forces. This might help Finland slow down the Russian advance, as Mountain troops have higher organization.

Any thoughts?
 
Re: Finnish Army

Originally posted by McNaughton


Any thoughts?
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Seems like this could turn into an exploit. Right now, Finland has to make a large investment in IC to get mountain troops with their increased defensive ratings. Has Finland been having trouble with Russia lately? I confess that I haven't seen them at war for awhile. Russia is too distracted with killing Germany in 1940 than poor little Finland :D (damn Lithuanians :D) MDow
 
April 1940, playing as Germany. I invade both Denmark and Sweden simultaneously, Norway immediately joins allies. Ok so far so good.

Denmark is shortly annexed. I conquer all of Sweden up to Ostersund and decide to puppet Sweden. Within a couple of days, Sweden recieves some event regarding Finland and declares war upon USSR, taking me along with them. Needless to say this should be the end of Germany, for France has not yet been dealt with in any manner.

It seems to me this should not be possible for my own puppet regime to send me into war. I post this here because it was, after all, one of your events causing this I think.
 
Yushal Al Dai said:
April 1940, playing as Germany. I invade both Denmark and Sweden simultaneously, Norway immediately joins allies. Ok so far so good.

Denmark is shortly annexed. I conquer all of Sweden up to Ostersund and decide to puppet Sweden. Within a couple of days, Sweden recieves some event regarding Finland and declares war upon USSR, taking me along with them. Needless to say this should be the end of Germany, for France has not yet been dealt with in any manner.

It seems to me this should not be possible for my own puppet regime to send me into war. I post this here because it was, after all, one of your events causing this I think.
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This will be fixed in the next release. Thanx for spotting that one ;)

Ghost_Dk
 
Hi,

just a question. Could the event about supplies from USA to SU take into account the control of north Norway by the Axis? I mean that the 10000 supplies we"re reduced by the German activity in the north of Norway. Certainly already discussed but I just wondered.

Bye. Speed.
 
speed said:
Hi,

just a question. Could the event about supplies from USA to SU take into account the control of north Norway by the Axis? I mean that the 10000 supplies we"re reduced by the German activity in the north of Norway. Certainly already discussed but I just wondered.

Bye. Speed.
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In fact, it should check all the Soviet Arctic/Pacific ports plus alignment of Persia. Norway was not the most important route of LL to Russia, although the fact that Murmansk and Archangelsk are relatively close to the front made those much more valuable.

Yes, it could be done. Good suggestion. :)
 
Copper Nicus said:
In fact, it should check all the Soviet Arctic/Pacific ports plus alignment of Persia. Norway was not the most important route of LL to Russia, although the fact that Murmansk and Archangelsk are relatively close to the front made those much more valuable.

Yes, it could be done. Good suggestion. :)
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Hi,

so this mean that we could have something like : USA sends 10000 supplies to SU - xxxx supplies if some provinces are Axis controlled :
-500 Axis Narvik
-1500 Axis Mourmansk
-500 Axis Archangelsk
-500 Persia at war with SU

Of course the supplies would be lost for USA. Another event could also check for Vladivostok if at war with Japan, but I'm not sure how historically realistic it is. I don't see the US cargos sailing through the Kouriles that easily, and the event should also check if the railroad from Moscow to Vladivostok is free.

Changing country, I read that US submarines did very big damage to the Japanese Trade Fleet. As HoI doesn't take into account the rail/road network is it possible to think about the same with Japan. The problem is that Japan has raw material from Indochina but the rubber goes all the way up to Korea to be shipped to Japan. this is of course incorrect in reality. Japan had enormous raw materials under control but had more and more difficulties to transport it which meant they needed more cargos which meant more raw materials... Let's imagine some events firing when some provinces are under control to allow the USA to strike the Japanese cargos and raw material.

Example : "Strike the Japanese Trade Fleet" :
-250 supplies for the US (lost submarines)
-50 cargos and -500 rubber for Japan

That's of course just an example but could historically be accurate and do what the game doesn't take into account.

Bye. Speed.
 
Ilkhold said:
Why that submarine event? It's better to do it ingame. Send the subs to intercept convoys. I don't see the necessity for an event.
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All the raw materials from China and Indochina were mainly moved to Japan by sea. In HoI all these are first moved by land to Korea and then to Japan. Which basically makes it virtually impossible for the player or the AI to do something about it. It's the same with French colonies. The raw materials from central Africa were moved by sea to France not to Alger through the Sahara and then to Marseille. As HoI doesn't take into account the rail/road network I think that it's important to do something about it.

Here are the figures about the Japanese merchant fleet losses during WWII:
Japan lost 2200 merchant ships in 4 years.
1150 ships have been lost due to US submarines (95%).
The Japanese tonnage was 6 millions at the beginning of the war and only 0.5 million at the end.

The naval war has been won by airplanes but the economic war by the submarines. So something needs to be done about that. Japan is never short on cargos or raw materials which is completely wrong.

The strategic bombing of japanese cities doesn't take into account the fact that mainly made of wood and paper the cities burned like hell, the mining of the ports obliged Nagoya to be completely closed in april 1945, Tokyo and Yokohama in may.

Japan is a mountainous country, with few natural resources and many densely-populated cities dependent upon seaborne trade. This specific aspect of the Japanese economy should be taken into account by the game through events because HOI doesn't allow the AI or even the player to do much about it. Has anybody seen Japan short on cargos or raw materials? I haven't!
 
Japan is in a bad position regarding convoys. It needs to ship everything home. Other countries can just transport everything by land which is totally unrealistic.

I don't see the point in throwing away the current convoy/interception system just to replace it completely by events.
 
Ilkhold said:
Japan is in a bad position regarding convoys. It needs to ship everything home. Other countries can just transport everything by land which is totally unrealistic.

I don't see the point in throwing away the current convoy/interception system just to replace it completely by events.
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I have to agree with you there Ilkhold. The resource system in HOI is very flaved and there is no way to just handle everything throught events. Japan has lots of access to factories in China and on the pacific islands fx. yet everything has to be moved back to the capital. The same goes for the German blockade events. Even though any sane player cancels all trades on the world marked and only uses resources from landlocked areas he is still hit with the events. Silly really. I realise that the events are there to make the game harder for a german player, but playing my german AAR I've barely managed to scrape together much more then 16k Coal and 30k steel prior to the war and forget about oil and rubber nothing there. Before the war i managed to keep the coal/steel stores fairly balanced through WM trades of oil and rubber so that i could have a -30 to +60 coal/day. Now that im at war there is no sence in wasting 300 coal for 10 rubber. i wont get 0.5 oil conversion until some 6 months from now(september 1,1936) so im pretty screwed. The only reasonable thing would be to put those blocade events into the HARDCORE section because on normal/normal/basic I've had to spend every IC extra earned from annexation of austia and czekoslovakia on province improvements so i dont deplete my stores. Ive got 3 AA in every province in main germany, 3 coastal forts in each beach and started construction on forts along the french border and Italien border just to spend them on something so they dont use resources. Btw I'm not an idiot on the WM theres simply not enough rubber being sold to meet half the demand of the market at peace time. Im paying 3-4/1 for 100 rubber and 2/1 for 100 oil, or at least i used to.

Possible solutions:

1) Add more rubber to the WM

2) Downgrade cost of resource trade/gift events

3) Make the starting conversion techs a little better.

4) Maybe a combination of the above.

Ghost_dk

Edit: I know I'm stepping on some feet here because many people like to play higher difficulties but according to what we agreed on in the CORE design was to make the game as good as possible for the normal/normal level.
 
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