C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
Ok... effectively this downgrades part of the army for 23 countries in C.O.R.E. with probably the highest impact in Ethiopia and the two China's, but also the Spanish Civil War where militia is added through events. I suggest we test it with increased militia stats as that's the easiest fix and having battles last a little longer is generally not a bad thing IMHO. If it breaks the game we can then look at other solutions.

What about motorised infantry, should their ground defence also be changed? Paratroopers? Mountain infantry?

It's not the case in Spain and Ethiopia, since both sides use militia and infantry there. So it's mainly China problem.

Ok, here goes suggested changes:

militia.txt file in db/units

model = {
	cost 					= 1
	buildtime	 			= 44
	manpower 				= 7
	maxspeed 				= 2
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 			= 3 # +1
	airdefence				= 1
	softattack				= 1 # +1
	hardattack				= 0
	airattack				= 0
	transportweight			= 10
	supplyconsumption 		= 1
	fuelconsumption			= 0
	speed_cap_art			= 4
	speed_cap_eng			= 6
	speed_cap_at			= 4
	speed_cap_aa			= 4
}

And to the techs, extra line in doctrine 11001 # Static Defense Doctrine (Land):

command = { type = ground_defense which = militia when = now value = 2 } # +2

Both Chinas got this doctrine - that should help.

 

[Steel]

Thanks

Did you see the comments in the GD forum about Chinese tech levels?

Originally posted by Math Guy
In 1936 and 1939, China has exactly three tech levels and three tech apps. This is the absolute minimum package given to all HOI countries (except one or two that were missed by accident and will be fixed in v1.05).

In real life China was not as primitive as, say, Oman or Afghanistan. It had shipbuilding, it had railroads, it had quite a lot of stuff. Paradox evidently agrees that China is not really that primitive, because it gives a lot more tech to China in 1941. Like about 20 years' worth of research given China's economy.

You may want to look at the 1941 scenario file and think about retroactively giving yourself some of that big long list of apps in 1936, particularly as China didn't do very much research once it went to war with Japan and lost half its territory:

techlevels = {
# Developed Minors tech levels 1941
12000 12100 13000 13100 11000 11100 14000 14100 1000 1100 1200 1300 1400
2000 2100 5000 6000 6100 9000 9100 10000 10100 7000 8000 8100 3000 3100
4000 4100 4200 4300
14200
}

techapps = {
# Developed Minors tech apps 1941
12001 12004 13002 13006 11001 11004 11104 14001 14002 14003 14004 14005 14007
14008 14010 14012 14014 14015 14101 14102 1001 1107 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205
1301 1304 2001 2002 2003 2005 2006 2101 5001 5002 5004 6003 6004 6005 6006 6009
6011 6101 6102 6105 9001 9002 9003 9004 9005 9006 10001 10002 10003 10004 10005
10101 10102 10103 10104 10105 10106 7001 3001 3002 3003 3004 3005 3006 3101
4001 4002 4101 4102 4201 4202 4203 4204 4301 4302 4303
1302
1303
6001
6002
6012
14006
14204
13001
13004
}

This probably should be written up as a bug but I can already hear poor Vulture sighing at the thought of dealing with it.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
Thanks

Did you see the comments in the GD forum about Chinese tech levels?

I'll revisit their techs today and send you new inc file, but right now you can start testing with changes mentioned above. Form techs that affect fights I'm pretty sure I can give them heavy machine gun, but the rest... I must rethink this.

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
I'll revisit their techs today and send you new inc file, but right now you can start testing with changes mentioned above. Form techs that affect fights I'm pretty sure I can give them heavy machine gun, but the rest... I must rethink this.

I think Math Guy has a good point, but it does affect balance quite heavily (Sinkiang vs NatChi vs ComChi vs Japan with some knock-on effect on U03 and MAN) and also affects a number of events (Military Mission events, ComChi War Experience) so let's not rush into anything. If we add the extra techs it may make the militia stats and tech changes redundant.

 

[MateDow]

Chinese Naval Tech

I can vouch for the naval portion of Chinese technology,

They have Basic Naval Technology (6000) and Naval Logistics (6020) and Shoreside Infrastructure (6021). That puts them on the same level as countries like Greece and Turkey. MDow

 

[Steel]

Doctrine for night fighting

Snack posted a suggestion in the GD forum that there should be a doctrine for night fighting. I know Special Forces doctrine already includes a bonus and that some infra-red techs also give a bonus.

- Should there be an additional late-war doctrine for night fighting that requires Special Forces and Infrared Technology?

- Should there be air doctrines for night fighting?

- Should there be naval doctrines for night fighting?

The max bonus given by all techs shouldn't exceed the penalty for night fighting of course.

 

[nachinus]

I agree with those doctrines, but night penalty should still be high.
I don't know exactly how current techs decrease night penalty, but maybe adding more reduction of this penalty could make this night penalty hardly noticeable, and no matter how well you train your army, fighting at night is not the same as fughting during the day.

 

[unmerged(15991)]

Hey, while you are at it, where is the Human Wave doctrine? You know, like +2 soft attack, -2 defense and/or -10% org and definately increased cost of infantry in manpower? I am thinking along these lines...Russians can afford to waste a lot of manpower if it gives their steam rolling army an edge, while Germany can't for example. Would require an inf upgrade then, or it would be a bit silly Could work for Chinese too. Hey, they can't get those fancy weapons but they could surely use their numbers to fight differently in tactical (not strategic) terms.

I am sure I could think of some more when I get the inspiration

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Snack
Hey, while you are at it, where is the Human Wave doctrine? You know, like +2 soft attack, -2 defense and/or -10% org and definately increased cost of infantry in manpower? I am thinking along these lines...Russians can afford to waste a lot of manpower if it gives their steam rolling army an edge, while Germany can't for example. Would require an inf upgrade then, or it would be a bit silly Could work for Chinese too. Hey, they can't get those fancy weapons but they could surely use their numbers to fight differently in tactical (not strategic) terms.

I am sure I could think of some more when I get the inspiration

Interesting idea, but it would need a lot of polishing - lowering defence means doom for infantry unit, no matter how you rise it's attack. If you add to this lower org, units will run away before do something serious... BTW, AI always do "Human Wave", with and without proper doctrine. Best way to help it is simply let it draft units fast.

 

[Steel]

Very significant stuff from Math Guy. We'll need to review AA techs.

Originally posted by Math Guy
Okay, after examining Johan's code I think I understand the problem. The AA variables do work, but they are very, very nonlinear in the way they work. You have to be careful not to exceed their design limits or weird stuff happens.

First, the AA_batteries variable modifies each point of AA. For example, if you've built techs that give you +10, +10, +10, and +10, you will have a total of +40 % and each point of AA will be worth exactly 1.400. That is the number shown as "AA_efficiency" in the game save file.

Now when AA fires, it computes the chance of getting through the aircraft's surface_defense this way. For each point of surface defense it does a test:

if (rand()%100 < 75-flak), hit = false

flak = (AA_efficiency - 1.000) * 100.0

This is where all the nonlinear weirdness kicks in.

For example if flak = (1.400 - 1.000) * 100.0 = 40.0, then 75-40 = 35 and each point of surface_defense will stop one flak hit 35 % of the time. An average flak hit, by the way, still seems to be worth 3 % damage to the target, plus or minus 2 %.

That seems quite okay, but then if flak = (1.750 - 1.000) * 100.0 = 75.0, then 75-75 = 0 and surface_defense will not stop ANY flak hits. You can have surface_defense = 500 and it won't matter.

Conversely if flak = (0.750 - 1.000) * 100.0 = -25.0, then 75 - (-25) = 100 and surface_defense will stop 100 % of flak hits. So if you have a plane rated surface_defense = 10 or greater, flying into a province where the AA efficiency is 0.750 or lower, the AA will never hit anything even if the province has 10 AA.

In plain language, tweak the AA_efficiency value below 0.75 and it can't hit anything. Tweak it above 1.75 and it can't miss. In between it is possible for both AA_efficiency and surface_defense to have their intended effect.

As the techs in the game allow you to take AA_efficiency well above 2.00, it is easy to get in a position where surface_defense doesn't work any more, and this is what led to my submitting a bug report. Sorry if I confused anyone.

By the way, this way of calculating AA effect leads to some interesting situations. Say you have surface_defense = 1 and you're attacking a province with efficiency 0.800 and AA = 2. The AA gets two shots at you each hour. You have a 95 % chance of stopping the first shot (75-(-20) = 95) but you don't get any chance to stop the second shot.

So it all appears very moddable and I think pretty much any AA environment you may want to create is possible. But you have to watch those limits!

I still have some work to do on this. I want to run tests with a good variety of values just to make sure the equation is exactly as I have described it. The code Johan showed me has a different damage value than the one I observe in the game, so I'm not going to assume anything.

However, I have successfully caused AA to stop having any effect by lowering AA_efficiency, and I've produced the "miss the first, get hit by the second" effect I describe above for planes with surface_defense = 1, so clearly the variables ARE both working.

Many thanks to Johan for giving me the "inside scoop" so I could figure out what was happening.

 

[DoK]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Thing to consider in next version of the techmod... I would have to check how changes like that modify balance of the game - right now I have some serious successes in forcing Allies to fast develop air techs (in my recent games USA strat bombed me in 1941 with improved heavy bombers, as well as RAF and Soviet WWS are armed in basic/improved planes).

Right. And that shouldn't be happening.

I tried a game as Russian and cranked up the airpower development so I had an armada of advanced divebombers waiting for the Germans. When they attacked - with Basic Medium Tanks - the offensive was more or less stopped at the border simply by air power. They could pile 50 divisions on Minsk, but I had 36 five bombers that'd stop any assault.

I then tried a game as Germany and cranked up the air development again. Advanced fighters cleared the skies over France and England completely with no losses in about a month - before the spring of 1940.

Bottom line is that basic air units should be about all anyone can build until at least 1942. Make improved air units dependant on Early War Combat Testing (like with improved tanks) and this imbalance goes away.

 

[Steel]

As a temporary fix I've reduced AA_batteries increases in Rocketry, Air Doctrine, Artillery, Electronics and Light Aircraft tech categories so that max increase is +70. I'm sure this can be improved upon so please look into this in more detail. My only design goal here was to ensure that surface_defence is not irrelevant.

 

[DoK]

For very effective AAA, what about a late-war doctrine for "Flak Suppression." By 1944 between the advances in photo-recon and fighter bombers, AAA was being attacked at low levels with decent success. This could add 1 to the surface_defense of all aircraft which would represent how much tougher it is to shoot at planes when there's a P-47 sending rockets and 50-cal your way.

 

[Steel]

An idea posted over in Suggestions forum:

Originally posted by Firgeis
You know, the Level 3 Application Tech

Blood Tranfusions + Penicilin, DDT... + Front Line-Medical Station = 32 IC for 390 Days Effect +1 Ground Defence

Dont you think the cost and time is a little high for +1 Ground defence? Besides Blood Transfusions and Penicilin, DDT.... are prereqs only for that tech!
I propose either give the prereqs some bonus or give Front-Line Medical Station some nice bonus (like +% org)

The only effect from those 3 techs is in the last:

effects = {
command = { type = ground_defense which = infantry when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = motorized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = armor when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = mechanized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = bergsjaeger when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = marine when = now value = 1 }
}



I certainly remember thinking "that's not worth it" many times, maybe it's intended as a "luxury tech" for the USA but it doesn't really make sense to me - especially since it only improves casualty treatment from ground attacks?!?

How about:
- Small org increase in the first two techs
- A 1 point air_defense increase along with the 1 point ground_defense increase in the second tech but only for marine/mountain/para (limited service for selected units)
- A 1 point air and ground defense increase for armor/motor/mech/infra in the third tech (full availability of new tech)
- Let the third tech be a pre-req for a new land doctrine for "recycling" troops, ie manpower cost reduction.

 

[Ghost_dk]

Originally posted by Steel
An idea posted over in Suggestions forum:





The only effect from those 3 techs is in the last:

effects = {
command = { type = ground_defense which = infantry when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = motorized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = armor when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = mechanized when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = bergsjaeger when = now value = 1 }
command = { type = ground_defense which = marine when = now value = 1 }
}



I certainly remember thinking "that's not worth it" many times, maybe it's intended as a "luxury tech" for the USA but it doesn't really make sense to me - especially since it only improves casualty treatment from ground attacks?!?

How about:
- Small org increase in the first two techs
- A 1 point air_defense increase along with the 1 point ground_defense increase in the second tech but only for marine/mountain/para (limited service for selected units)
- A 1 point air and ground defense increase for armor/motor/mech/infra in the third tech (full availability of new tech)
- Let the third tech be a pre-req for a new land doctrine for "recycling" troops, ie manpower cost reduction.

The idea sound very good to me. Ive had the same thought as you regarding those techs. not worth it.

you should go ahead with that IMO

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
The idea sound very good to me. Ive had the same thought as you regarding those techs. not worth it.

you should go ahead with that IMO

Ghost_dk

Good idea. BTW, "not worth it"... that probably happened IRL - did you know, that Peniciline was ready to use around the end of Great War? Really sad.

 

[Steel]

I posted modified code with explanations here

It doesn't include the new doctrine with manpower reduction (I think we have to carefully check the effect of that on the game) but does include organisation and air/ground defense increases. It also has a speed reduction for cav units.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
I posted modified code with explanations here

It doesn't include the new doctrine with manpower reduction (I think we have to carefully check the effect of that on the game) but does include organisation and air/ground defense increases. It also has a speed reduction for cav units.

I like that, but reduction of org bonus to 1 in first tech and 3 in second would be probably better - we don't want to give players more that they get from most of the land doctrines, don't we?

Keep this code Steel, it would be useful in 0.5

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
I like that, but reduction of org bonus to 1 in first tech and 3 in second would be probably better - we don't want to give players more that they get from most of the land doctrines, don't we?

Keep this code Steel, it would be useful in 0.5

Yes, I was thinking along those lines as well. These three techs cost 4200IC, a comparable doctrine 2800IC... but these techs also give defence bonus. I'll tweak it a bit and then write up a new doctrine as well for more org gain and manpower reduction.

Did you check the new AA_batteries values? I think they could use some additional tweaking, also we'll need to look at defence values for all the aircraft.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
Yes, I was thinking along those lines as well. These three techs cost 4200IC, a comparable doctrine 2800IC... but these techs also give defence bonus. I'll tweak it a bit and then write up a new doctrine as well for more org gain and manpower reduction.

Did you check the new AA_batteries values? I think they could use some additional tweaking, also we'll need to look at defence values for all the aircraft.

I've seen an idea to block development of improved planes in the same way as with tanks (by early war experience doctrine). I like that - maybe a bit longer time of critical levels research would also would be good (again - as in tank tree). "Advanced" constructions are blocked anyway (by "quality control" from industrial tree).