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C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

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air model/tech text differences

I noticed that for the german improved and advanced interceptor and MR figther techs the gained model is different from the model discribed in the tech text as being the german model of that type.
fx. text : this was the german FW190 and model gained is BF109D or something like that.

the text or model should be changed.

Ghost_dk
 
Re: air model/tech text differences

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
I noticed that for the german improved and advanced interceptor and MR figther techs the gained model is different from the model discribed in the tech text as being the german model of that type.
fx. text : this was the german FW190 and model gained is BF109D or something like that.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's common problem with modding models lists - basically most of modders don't agree with default choices. Especially when it comes to airforces with multitude of models, like Luftwaffe, RAF and Japan Naval and Army airforces (especially Japan - they had 2 different planes of every generation - one for army and one for navy).
I would say that since Bf-109G and FW-190 were in service at the same period of time and had similar purposes (interception), then it's not that big problem. We can change original tech comment though - I'm pretty stisfied by models names (at least for Germany) up to now. :D
 
Re: model/text

Originally posted by Ghost_dk
yes im ok with the models as well so lets just change the text :)

Ghost_dk
Click to expand...

Of course only if we not overhaul whole air techs trees (like tanks and navy). I still wait for some airforce maniac to do this job for CORE... :D
 
Main Battle Tanks

In 1946, USSR adopted the T-54 to replace the T-34 tank. This can be considered a direct precursor (if not one) of the soviet MBTs. It had double the armor protection of T-34 and firepower of a late war heavy tank.

Would it not make sense to add the semi-modern tanks to the tech tree? Allowing 80+, 90+ and 100+ mm MBTs?

Thanks
 
Originally posted by Steel
I posted modified code with explanations here

It doesn't include the new doctrine with manpower reduction (I think we have to carefully check the effect of that on the game) but does include organisation and air/ground defense increases. It also has a speed reduction for cav units.
Click to expand...
As of 1.04 the manpower tech command doesn't work (actually the command works but the variable it sets is not used by the game although it is saved in the savegame).
 
Re: Main Battle Tanks

Originally posted by Mortu
In 1946, USSR adopted the T-54 to replace the T-34 tank. This can be considered a direct precursor (if not one) of the soviet MBTs. It had double the armor protection of T-34 and firepower of a late war heavy tank.

Would it not make sense to add the semi-modern tanks to the tech tree? Allowing 80+, 90+ and 100+ mm MBTs?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Mortu, please check 0.4 version of CORE, it's already there. :D
 
Flamethrowers for the Marines

Currently flamethrowers benefit vanilla infantry, motorised and mechanised units. I'm of the opinion that they should also benefit vanilla marine infantry units, it's a key infantry support weapon for clearing enemy positions on the beaches. Any other thoughts on this?

Code: 
			effects = {
				command = { type = fort_attack which = infantry value = 3 } # new
				command = { type = fort_attack which = motorized value = 3 } # new
				command = { type = fort_attack which = mechanized value = 3 } # new
				command = { type = fort_attack which = engineer value = 3 } # new
			}
 
Re: Flamethrowers for the Marines

Originally posted by Steel
Currently flamethrowers benefit vanilla infantry, motorised and mechanised units. I'm of the opinion that they should also benefit vanilla marine infantry units, it's a key infantry support weapon for clearing enemy positions on the beaches. Any other thoughts on this?

Click to expand...
I agree.
:D
 
Added Combat Medical Services tech effects (toned down from initial proposal), flamethrowers for marines and verified max AA_battery increase is 70 points.
 
Elite rock climbers

Ok there are elite units of many types in the game now but i think we missed one.

Mountain inf.

yes these people were mostly better trained then reg. inf. but according to feldgrau at least 3 SS - mountain div. were formed.

ss troops were not only handpicked(like mountain and para units)
but recieved special treatment regarding equipment as well, so IMO a elite mountain unit model belongs in the game as well.

another thing regarding elite unit models.

when germany researches elite units the get the following models:

SS- panzergrenadiere (no problem here.)
elite motorized(why not SS - motorized?)
ELITE KAVALERIE( were they so inferior that they had to shout to get attention:rolleyes: )

I havent checked the other countries but there should be some symetri in the names IMO

Ghost_dk
 
You mean elite of elites units? ;)
I mean, moutain troopers are elite already (special eqiupment, higher starting org, etc.). We can think about it, but... well, I'm not sure if it's not overkill. :D

Elite motorized is a mistake in models.csv file (models names). It will be corrected in next versions.

BTW, ONLY Germans got elite versions of normal units. Other countires did not use this sort of separation like German SS-Waffen and regular Werhmacht (separate equipment, supplies etc.). Soviet Guards are whole different idea and in other armies there was no such thing (at least not institutionalized). Same thing with 44' pattern divisions. Also giving all the countires chance to have elites causes problems with the AI - it will bulit only elites, and will upgrade all units to the "elite" version. Better keep it for Germany only.
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
BTW, ONLY Germans got elite versions of normal units. Other countires did not use this sort of separation like German SS-Waffen and regular Werhmacht (separate equipment, supplies etc.). Soviet Guards are whole different idea and in other armies there was no such thing (at least not institutionalized). Same thing with 44' pattern divisions. Also giving all the countires chance to have elites causes problems with the AI - it will bulit only elites, and will upgrade all units to the "elite" version. Better keep it for Germany only.
Click to expand...

I could easily see swedish, norwegian, swiss elite mountain units.

ghost_dk
 
Originally posted by Ghost_dk
I could easily see swedish, norwegian, swiss elite mountain units.
Click to expand...

Ok, so we can simply give them more "moutain" techs from the start (eqipment, weapons and so on). And some proper doctrine.

Sorry, but EVERY single country in the world can claim their moutain troops elites - and they will be probably right. Just check the posts from French and Italian players. :D
 
It may just be me, but some of the units/techs seem a bit off, at least for the US. Last game I had, my Paras were Soft attack 20, Ground defense 20, in 1938! Also, some of the tank techs take a skewed ammount of time to develop, or at least that's how it seems. Has this already been mentioned?
 
Originally posted by JRaup
It may just be me, but some of the units/techs seem a bit off, at least for the US. Last game I had, my Paras were Soft attack 20, Ground defense 20, in 1938! Also, some of the tank techs take a skewed ammount of time to develop, or at least that's how it seems. Has this already been mentioned?
Click to expand...

:eek:

Can you give me examples? I mean, all units got higher stats to counter tanks a bit (infantry with defence 20 is quite common), but paras with the soft attack 20? With or without artillery brigade? Brigades are much more attractive than in vanilla HoI...

About the time - give me examples, it's possible that I missed something...
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
:eek:

Can you give me examples? I mean, all units got higher stats to counter tanks a bit (infantry with defence 20 is quite common), but paras with the soft attack 20? With or without artillery brigade? Brigades are much more attractive than in vanilla HoI...

About the time - give me examples, it's possible that I missed something...
Click to expand...

Well, my Para's had the 20 SA, 20 GD, in 1938/39, no brigades (Paras can't have any AFAIK), and at a cost of 25IC. The IC cost seems more than a bit high to me, as my tank units cost 7-10IC less. It might be better to have the Paras cost 18 IC (2xavg INF cost), and take 160 days to complete. Otherwise, they're just not worth the investment either as a unit, or as a tech beyond the general Airborne Warfare tech (to get Improved Ordinance).
On the tank tech front, it took almost 300 days to get the tankettes and Infantry support tanks (which the US should already have by 36), yet in less than 120 days, I was able to get Medium and Heavy tank prototype techs. This is too big a jump to make.
On a related note, the attack/defense value changes may effect AIs in an unintended way. From what I was reading of MathGuy's posts, the AI does not rely solely on #'s of divisions for its rations, but Attack:Defense ratios as well. The higher Defense values may prevent offensives from happening as the ratios are more skewed. This is just theoretical, but I have seen some oddities in 0.4 that may be a result of this. Something to look into.
 
Originally posted by JRaup
Well, my Para's had the 20 SA, 20 GD, in 1938/39, no brigades (Paras can't have any AFAIK), and at a cost of 25IC. The IC cost seems more than a bit high to me, as my tank units cost 7-10IC less. It might be better to have the Paras cost 18 IC (2xavg INF cost), and take 160 days to complete. Otherwise, they're just not worth the investment either as a unit, or as a tech beyond the general Airborne Warfare tech (to get Improved Ordinance).
On the tank tech front, it took almost 300 days to get the tankettes and Infantry support tanks (which the US should already have by 36), yet in less than 120 days, I was able to get Medium and Heavy tank prototype techs. This is too big a jump to make.
Click to expand...


# Tankette Prototype, time = 60
# Tankette (.30 MG), time = 60
# Infantry Support Tank Prototype, time = 60
# Inf Support Tank battalion, time = 60

All IC 6. Maybe lowering (or removing) randomness of research will help? I'll check that.

Paras are costly to balance their power in 1.04. Now, when the rules to this unit were changed, we can safely drop their cost to 18 IC.

Basic para got stats:
Code: 
model = {
	cost 					= 25
	buildtime				= 180
	manpower 				= 7
	maxspeed 				= 3
	defaultorganisation 	= 50
	grounddefence 			= 2
	airdefence				= 1
	softattack				= 1
	hardattack				= 1
	airattack				= 1
	transportweight			= 10
	supplyconsumption 		= 1
	fuelconsumption			= 0
	speed_cap_art			= 4
	speed_cap_eng			= 5
	speed_cap_at			= 4
	speed_cap_aa			= 4
}

As you see, not impressive at all. From artillery tree they get only 30mm infantry gun as a bonus, then later only recoiless gun plus AA weapons. Now infantry weapons, that's were they excel. I can tweak that a bit, but many people were very concerned by paras unable to defend from the single infantry division. And ALL infantry units got higher stats than in vanilla HoI, thanks to the new techs.

Originally posted by JRaup
On a related note, the attack/defense value changes may effect AIs in an unintended way. From what I was reading of MathGuy's posts, the AI does not rely solely on #'s of divisions for its rations, but Attack:Defense ratios as well. The higher Defense values may prevent offensives from happening as the ratios are more skewed. This is just theoretical, but I have seen some oddities in 0.4 that may be a result of this. Something to look into. .
Click to expand...


I know - but basic techmod tree had rather too high attack values (most of the new techs were attack oriented). After adjusting the defence (changed stats and static defence doctrine), game started to work closer to the nomal HoI. Still the battles of huge stacks are somewhat extremely bloody - but it was also an issue in vanilla HoI. IMO if the is a problem with lost attack/defence balance, then it's still too low defence values.
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Ok, so we can simply give them more "moutain" techs from the start (eqipment, weapons and so on). And some proper doctrine.

Sorry, but EVERY single country in the world can claim their moutain troops elites - and they will be probably right. Just check the posts from French and Italian players. :D
Click to expand...

fine by me :)

Ghost_dk
 
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