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C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

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New ideas...

This one is based on the game experience - usually at the late game stages no one bother with developing advanced light tanks. Those units are totally useless (too low statistics) and rather ahistorical (at the late war light tanks were mostly part of recon units).

So, for the next version of CORE (0.6, not 0.5) is suggest:

1) removing techs:

# Advanced Light Tank (30+mm)
id = 2310
# Advanced Light Tank (40+mm)
id = 2311
# Advanced Light Tank (50+mm)
id = 2312
# Advanced Light Tank (70mm+ Medium)
id = 2313

2) replacing them with the new one:

Code: 
application = { # Advanced Light Tank Recon Battalion
			id = 2310
			name = "Advanced Light Tank Recon Battalion"
			desc = "Development of the new generations of medium tanks, as well as new, more effective AT weapons, resulted in change of light tanks use. Unable to withstand modern battlefield firepower, light tanks were employed as recon vehicles and as a support for their heavier counterparts in hard terrain."
			
			required = { 2309 14974 4803 } # Quality Control added, 20mm air cannon added
			chance = 90
			cost = 8
			time = 90
			neg_offset = 20
			pos_offset = 40
			
			effects = {
command = { type = speed which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 1 }
command = { type = desert_attack which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }
command = { type = desert_defence which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }
command = { type = hill_attack which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }
command = { type = hill_defence which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }
command = { type = forest_attack which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }
command = { type = forest_defence which = armor when = on_upgrade value = 3 }	
			}
		}

Any opinions?
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I really like it. :cool: Maybe add a recon bonus as well.

BTW, this kind of thinking should be applied to air units as well (flak suppression, carrier air groups, recon etc).


Nitpick: conterparts should be counterparts
 
Flamethrowers

As you probably know Paradox have adopted our version of Flamethrower tech bonus (ie removed defence bonus, added fort bonus). Vulture just advised me that they are adding the fort bonus to paras and mountain infantry as well.

Originally posted by Vulture
Steel, you should add bergsjaeger and paratroopers too to the units benefitting from the flamethrower... That's what we did at least ;)
Click to expand...


My thinking on this is that our solution is fine as it is, with infantry, motorised, mechanised and marines always get the bonus but armor, paras, cavalry and armor would only get it if they have an engineer brigade. I don't remember now if paras can actually have brigades though...

Any thoughts on this? Should vanilla mountain infantry have flamethrowers? Would paras (well, glider infantry) have flamethrowers? I don't think it's unreasonable either way so maybe this is just a game balance question.
 
CN: I really like the Recon Battalion idea. You're wuite right in that the Adv. Light Tanks are fairly useless, especially in late game situations. The recon aspect works well IMO, or should anyway.
Some of teh randomness for techs, in the major countries at least probably needs to be tweaked. I didn't consider that factor when I was looking at the techs as teh US. That may have been the factor that threw things off for me.

Steel: Paras can't have brigades AFAIK, and as of the last time I played. and they shouldn't get the flamethrower binus anyway. You do not want to jump out of a plane with 25 gallons of unstable gasoline jelly strapped to your back.
 
Yeah, that's why I said glider infantry ;) I'm quite happy leaving paras without flamethrowers though (they bypass forts anyway while doing airborne assault). What about mountain infantry?

About light tank recon battallion, how about letting mech divisions get a bonus as well? I think it was quite common practise to attach tank destroyer, assault gun and tank tank battalions to mech divisions.
 
Originally posted by Steel
Yeah, that's why I said glider infantry ;) I'm quite happy leaving paras without flamethrowers though (they bypass forts anyway while doing airborne assault). What about mountain infantry?

About light tank recon battallion, how about letting mech divisions get a bonus as well? I think it was quite common practise to attach tank destroyer, assault gun and tank tank battalions to mech divisions.
Click to expand...

Oh even better. Crash landing in a glider with that same 25 gallons. Soooo much better. :D Mountain infantry should get the flamer bonus. Nothings better for clearing caves than a flamethrower.

I agree that Mech Divs should get a bonus from the recon battalion. Very often tank destroyers or light armored recon detachments were assigned to Mech Divisions. late war units often had them as part of their standard TO&E, for US units anway.
 
From the suggestions forum

Originally posted by Moraelin
Since there's a thread about flamethrowers, and changing them to give a fortress bonus attack for infantry, I remembered another nice weapon of the second world war: the flame tank.

I'm sure everyone already knows what I'm talking about, but for the unlikely case: it's a tank, with a heavier flamethrower. Some models had it instead of the main gun, some had it on the body. The vehicle version of the flamethrower had easily twice the range of an infantry flamer, and basically dumped a whole barrel of napalm per jet. Downside being that you only have so many jets, and that range is still a lot smaller than that of a gun. Still, quite a fort killer.

Way I see it, it wouldn't be a new tank model, but work like the tank destroyers. I.e., a tech which gives tank divisions better fort attack. (_Noone_ made a whole division of flame tanks.)

It would need an extra artillery tech, namely the vehicle mounted flamethrower itself. For example, as a level 3 tech. ("Improved Equipment and Ordinance" sounds about right as a category for it.)

Then there would be the tank itself, for example under level 4 armor tech. ("Assault guns and tank destroyers." Well, it's used as an assault gun.) It would depend on the aforementioned artillery tech and on some tank prototype. (In my test, I based it on the basic medium tank prototype, just because it sounded about right for a level 4 tech. It could just as well be based on light tanks, though.)

Well, just an idea, maybe for HoI 2 or for some mod.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by JRaup
Oh even better. Crash landing in a glider with that same 25 gallons. Soooo much better. :D Mountain infantry should get the flamer bonus. Nothings better for clearing caves than a flamethrower.

I agree that Mech Divs should get a bonus from the recon battalion. Very often tank destroyers or light armored recon detachments were assigned to Mech Divisions. late war units often had them as part of their standard TO&E, for US units anway.
Click to expand...

Mech divs already get bonus from assault guns and tank destroyers, but recon batt should work fine with them - the trick of course is the change of speed, not the rest of stats. Most of players are used to 11-15 tank speeds from vanilla HoI, when in CORE all medium tanks divs got 8. Change of 1 is very, very powerful bonus.

Flame tanks... why not? Some sort of bonus for armoured units, probably on Basic Tanks level... ok, I'll prepare something for 0.6.
 
Re: Flamethrowers for the Marines

Originally posted by Steel
Currently flamethrowers benefit vanilla infantry, motorised and mechanised units. I'm of the opinion that they should also benefit vanilla marine infantry units, it's a key infantry support weapon for clearing enemy positions on the beaches. Any other thoughts on this?

Code: 
	effects = {
command = { type = fort_attack which = infantry value = 5 } 
command = { type = urban_attack which = infantry value = 5 } 
command = { type = mountain_defense which = infantry value = 5 } 
command = { type = hill_defense which = infantry value = 5 } 
command = { type = soft_attack which = engineer value = 1 } 
			}
This is my idea of the Modern Flamethrowers.
Click to expand...
:D
 
Light Tank Divisions

Keep the seperate light tank divisions. I like to use them as fast attacking units where there won't be a lot of opposition. They have an advantage because of their speed, but you have to balance that against their reduced combat stats. Keep them in there just to give players the option of fast, light combat. I like the option of having a light recon option of regular armor units as well, but don't get rid of the light divisions.

This ends my tirade. MDow
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Mech divs already get bonus from assault guns and tank destroyers, but recon batt should work fine with them - the trick of course is the change of speed, not the rest of stats. Most of players are used to 11-15 tank speeds from vanilla HoI, when in CORE all medium tanks divs got 8. Change of 1 is very, very powerful bonus.

Flame tanks... why not? Some sort of bonus for armoured units, probably on Basic Tanks level... ok, I'll prepare something for 0.6.
Click to expand...

The speed adjustment works for me. Maybe that's a way to go for all recon type bonuses. Give a faster speed rating due to better intell and scouting.

Flame tanks certainly existed. The Germans had a PzIII variant (N? L?), and the US had M-4/M-28 flame variants (used mainly in PTO). But better to either make it a battalion type bonus, or just a general armor unit bonus, rather than a whole division type unit, as that would be ahistorical.
 
Re: Light Tank Divisions

Originally posted by MateDow
Keep the seperate light tank divisions. I like to use them as fast attacking units where there won't be a lot of opposition. They have an advantage because of their speed, but you have to balance that against their reduced combat stats. Keep them in there just to give players the option of fast, light combat. I like the option of having a light recon option of regular armor units as well, but don't get rid of the light divisions.

This ends my tirade. MDow
Click to expand...

Early light tanks I think will remain the same, and even the improved versions. It's the advanced level tanks that will become a battalion bonus for armor if I'm reading things right.
 
About flame tank and flamethrower.. dont notice bad english :)

During the WW2 the flamethrowers where mostly used in close
combats in town and to make space in the jungel fights. But the regular infanteri, marines and mountain troops also had it.

The marines had difficultis to use it in the first attack wave but after they had there first breakthrough it worked very well.. The marine attack consisted of speed. If you ever have hold a ww2 flamethrower in your arms you will understand what im talking about.. its heavy!.. even worse on a paratrooper.

so i think you should lower the +% on the jungel warfare and do a improved jungel warfare with +% and +dmg or simply add +dmg to the jungelwarfare..

Steel> the flamethrower should not do so much damage on the fort attack. In battle the first wave must attack the bunker before the flamethrower carrier can reach it. And thats hard!..

Moraelin wrote about the flame tank.. that was also one on the most important weapons that the allies used in the jungel fights..
 
Re: Re: Light Tank Divisions

Originally posted by JRaup
Early light tanks I think will remain the same, and even the improved versions. It's the advanced level tanks that will become a battalion bonus for armor if I'm reading things right.
Click to expand...

But I would like the option of upgrading my light tank divisions to a higher standard and if it is just a bonus for a recon division then that is not possible. The concept of the armored cavalry (light and fast) is one that is still in use today and has been in use since the Second World War. If people don't think that the light tank is (or was) useful, then they shouldn't build them.

Thus ends the second tirade. MDow
 
Aren't the modern "cavalry" division really mech divisions with an MBT component though... As was mentioned before, extend the light tank bonus to mech and give them a speed bonus - that way you get the "light tank division" albeit under a different name ;)
 
Originally posted by Steel
Aren't the modern "cavalry" division really mech divisions with an MBT component though... As was mentioned before, extend the light tank bonus to mech and give them a speed bonus - that way you get the "light tank division" albeit under a different name ;)
Click to expand...

Depends. Some units, like the US 7th Cav, are Mech units with an MBT component. Others, such as the US 1st Cav, are airmobile units, with a mechanized component. And yes, I agree with giving the Mech divisions the bonus.
 
Re: Re: Re: Light Tank Divisions

Originally posted by MateDow
But I would like the option of upgrading my light tank divisions to a higher standard and if it is just a bonus for a recon division then that is not possible. The concept of the armored cavalry (light and fast) is one that is still in use today and has been in use since the Second World War. If people don't think that the light tank is (or was) useful, then they shouldn't build them.

Thus ends the second tirade. MDow
Click to expand...

The problem with this, is that it would be somewhat ahistorical. When the RW equivaelent of the Advanced Light Tank tech rolls around, most of those units were upgraded, the broken up to provide the fast armored scout battalions for heavier tank units, and heavy mech units. There was a general shift away from division sized units of light tanks, turning towards base units of medium/heavy tanks, with a light recon component.
And yes, armored cavalry do exist, and are part and parcel of modern mechanized warfare. However, you will not see division sized units of light tanks in any modern style army. As steel said, many of those cavalry units are actually mech units with an MBT detachment, using primarily IFV's and APC's, both of which are covered in the Tech tree.
 
Late war light tanks...

Ok, more on that matter...

After adding the change, basic (no upgrades) best light tank unit will have following stats:

Code: 
# 11 - Improved Light Tank (40+mm)
model = {
	cost 					= 10 
	buildtime	 			= 180
	manpower 				= 6
	maxspeed 				= 11 
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 			= 5 
	airdefence				= 1
	softattack				= 6 
	hardattack				= 6 
	airattack				= 1
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 2
	fuelconsumption			= 2.5
	speed_cap_art			= 10
	speed_cap_eng			= 100
	speed_cap_at			= 10
	speed_cap_aa			= 10

It looks puny, I know. But let's add 7 levels of upgrades (ammo, optics, smoke charges, heavy tank batt, mobile artillery) f

Code: 
# 11 - Improved Light Tank (40+mm)
model = {
	cost 					= 14 
	buildtime	 			= 205
	manpower 				= 6
	maxspeed 				= 12 
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 			= 18
	airdefence				= 6
	softattack				= 19
	hardattack				= 18 
	airattack				= 6
	transportweight			= 30

Looks like it can deal with any light (minor countries, militia) target...
 
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