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C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

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Re: Late war light tanks...

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Ok, more on that matter...

After adding the change, basic (no upgrades) best light tank unit will have following stats:

Code: 
# 11 - Improved Light Tank (40+mm)
model = {
	cost 					= 10 
	buildtime	 			= 180
	manpower 				= 6
	maxspeed 				= 11 
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 			= 5 
	airdefence				= 1
	softattack				= 6 
	hardattack				= 6 
	airattack				= 1
	transportweight			= 30
	supplyconsumption 		= 2
	fuelconsumption			= 2.5
	speed_cap_art			= 10
	speed_cap_eng			= 100
	speed_cap_at			= 10
	speed_cap_aa			= 10

It looks puny, I know. But let's add 7 levels of upgrades (ammo, optics, smoke charges, heavy tank batt, mobile artillery) f

Code: 
# 11 - Improved Light Tank (40+mm)
model = {
	cost 					= 14 
	buildtime	 			= 205
	manpower 				= 6
	maxspeed 				= 12 
	defaultorganisation 	= 30
	grounddefence 			= 18
	airdefence				= 6
	softattack				= 19
	hardattack				= 18 
	airattack				= 6
	transportweight			= 30

Looks like it can deal with any light (minor countries, militia) target...
Click to expand...

Looks great. Makes the upgrades that much more worth while, and keeps the light tanks usable.
 
Deactivation of tanks

Ok, another thing to discuss.

As you probably know, in the middle of 30' most the world considered tanks infantry support weapon and were not interested in creation of big armoured units. Even Germany in 1935 had only tank battalions, and tank divisions were created later (Guderian's "Achtung! Panzer!' was essential on that matter).

I took me some time to find a way how to simulate this. Remember, now in HoI EVERY country with enough IC is able to build tank division. It's totally ahistorical (problem similar to the mechanized units activated too fast). The problem is that panzers are active from the start (it's hardcoded).
Fortunately, it can be deactivated from the level of starting file of every country (inc file) and later activated by the proper doctrine. I'm going to make it "0" or "1" level doctrine. Now, what is probably the main blasphemy of the idea, I'm not going to give this doctrine from the start, but give it them for free in the new event connected with publication of "Achtung! Panzer". They would also get their Blitzkrieg national doctrine.

Now I'm pretty sure that in 1936 no country got both organizational ability and proper military doctrines to organize division level units of tanks. If anyone got any opinion, suggestions or arguments supporting current availability of tanks, feel free to post it here.
 
Now I'm pretty sure that in 1936 no country got both organizational ability and proper military doctrines to organize division level units of tanks. If anyone got any opinion, suggestions or arguments supporting current availability of tanks, feel free to post it here
Click to expand...

That would be great C.N.
In my current 0.5 game, I am looking at 2 Dutch panzer divisions, okay probably pre-war tanks, but a-historical anyway. We had ONE tank in 1940, really, ONE tank. It was used to test and try it out for infantry support. I am also seeing 2 motorized divisions, all Dutch infantry were on bicycle's.
Then again, in the Polish campaign I didn't encounter any tanks.......
The AI research preferences should be more historically linked with the countries, Holland also has 4 fighter divisions, now our Fokker fighters were certainly not bad but NO match against the BF109's and we certainly did NOT have 400 fighters.
The BF109's should clean the sky of any minors in 1939/40, now they are really struggeling.
I am just thinking that some countries can just build too much, I'm always looking at 25 czech divisions, 20 dutch, 20 Belgium, even 12 now in total in Norway, I had a CRAZY time there:( .

Anyway, a great idea to deactivite the tank tech for probably most countries in 1936.
 
Originally posted by hendriks
The AI research preferences should be more historically linked with the countries, Holland also has 4 fighter divisions, now our Fokker fighters were certainly not bad but NO match against the BF109's and we certainly did NOT have 400 fighters.
The BF109's should clean the sky of any minors in 1939/40, now they are really struggeling.
Click to expand...

Serious rework of air techs and units is scheduled for 0.6 - in fact, bf-109 are not that bad (it's standard HoI stats line) - it's because your enemy got too many planes. Will work on that anyway.

And in CORE plane unit is around 70 planes (Gruppe, Wing, 2 soviet air regiments, you name it...).
 
Great idea, Copper Nicus! What will trigger the activation in other countries?
Originally posted by hendriks
(...)I am just thinking that some countries can just build too much, I'm always looking at 25 czech divisions, 20 dutch, 20 Belgium, even 12 now in total in Norway, I had a CRAZY time there.

Anyway, a great idea to deactivite the tank tech for probably most countries in 1936.
Click to expand...
25 czech divisions is 100% historical. In 1938 they mobilized 22 Infantry Divisions (Numbered 1. to 22.) + 2 Cavalry Brigades + 8 Division or brigade-sized Border-Guards units (numbereed Hranicarska Oblast 32. and 36.-42.) + Fast Divisions (2 or 3?) + Rear Cover.
Cheers
 
Originally posted by Halibutt
Great idea, Copper Nicus! What will trigger the activation in other countries?
Click to expand...

The first doctrine (working title "Armoured warfare") will be inventable for anyone, only Blitz will stay GER-only.

About number of div's - I test a bit higher manpower cost (1-2 points), that should help in late war weird situations, like infinitive German manpower (they keep 300-400 divs at the end of war, allied expeditionary forces included). This really affects whole game balance, since Axis minors are able to supply Germany with huge number divs for free. Of course, minors divs are not that good, but there is huge number of these and Romania, Hungary, Italy and Bulgaria are way too eager to die for The Third Reich.
 
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We might be able to deal with hardwired tanks the same way that we dealt with hardwired cruisers. Make some really high cost intro unit that the AI or player can still build, but it will take forever to complete or cost a ton of IC. It seems like it might be called an armored infantry unit or something vague like that. MDow
 
Originally posted by MateDow
We might be able to deal with hardwired tanks the same way that we dealt with hardwired cruisers. Make some really high cost intro unit that the AI or player can still build, but it will take forever to complete or cost a ton of IC. It seems like it might be called an armored infantry unit or something vague like that. MDow
Click to expand...

We don't have to. By simple command:

allowed = { panzer = no }

added to every inc file we remove hardwired tanks from game. Then later we can bring them back. As I said - I didn't know about that earlier, but those code parts copied from save game files can be really handly in modding... :D

You want to do the same with cruisers?
 
Czech Tanks Event

The "Germans get Czech tanks" event no longer jives with the tech tree. The Czech 38t tank is now considered (atleast by whomever did the tech tree) to be an Improved light tank 30mm. So shouldn't this be the technology the Germans acquire?

It begs the question of German tanks early in the game. Currently, your three initial panzer divisions have Mark IIs. I would think they should have Mark Is. The technology for basic light tanks should be inactive, so you have the three divisions, but can then discover basic light tanks 20mm and build Mark IIs.....and the mix for Poland was Is and IIs. Right now, it's hard to build Mark IIs and no one would want to, as you can get Mark IIIs at about the same time/research effort.

Comments?
 
Hmmm, I can change model of tanks in German OOB, you are right. About the locked tank models - it's AI problem. Even with very carefully prepared research paths I can't guarantee, that suddenly AI won't start inventing light tanks models one-after another... So only one one type per model is allowed.

To implement your idea, we would have to:
- correct OOB (PzIb instead of Pz II),
- remove tech basic light tank MG, leaving prototype (thus player will be able to choose desired model.

Right?

I like it. Will be implemented in 0.6. :)
 
I have an idea, that would be country-specific.

Is it possible to implement guerilla warfare doctrine?
I think this is a good idea, and it can be made country-specific for countries like CommChina, etc. A doctrine like this would make some weaker countries like CommChina a little more historical and powerful.

Some suggestions for this doctrine is:
Make militia cheaper
Give militia +2 soft attack, -1 defense
Make militia use less supplies
Give militia a little more organization (Chinese and Vietnamese Guerillas were relatively organized, especially during combat)

Well, tell me what you think and I'll make a tech for it, thanks.

EDIT: I know C.O.R.E. already has partisan attacks and other guerilla doctrines, but none of them really give the feeling of the real use and/or effectiveness of guerillas for some countries.
 
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Originally posted by Copper Nicus
.

To implement your idea, we would have to:
- correct OOB (PzIb instead of Pz II),
- remove tech basic light tank MG, leaving prototype (thus player will be able to choose desired model.

Right?

I like it. Will be implemented in 0.6. :)
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me. No need to reinvent the tank tread..... atleast the human player can try to have the historical mix of Is and IIs for Poland and IIs and IIIs for France (not quite that simply, but you get the point).

Outstanding!

BTW, I cannot find that Czech tank tech transfer in the events file....looked everywhere.....anyone know?
 
On to aircraft

Okay gang.

German aircraft......shouldn't the progression for Tac be:

Do-17
He-111
Ju-88
etc.

Switches the He-111 and the ju-88. Just seems like a more accurate progression. Again, just model names (I changed them in my game).
 
Originally posted by MartyWolf
EDIT: I know C.O.R.E. already has partisan attacks and other guerilla doctrines, but none of them really give the feeling of the real use and/or effectiveness of guerillas for some countries.
Click to expand...

The main problem with Guerilla in HoI is... that it not exists. :D HoI is all about regular forces + even militia is rather reserve, not partisan group. The way you suggest we can support China and maybe Ethiopia, but that is all. This doctine will not help any European partisans - and will not hit invader after annexation of defender, which is main purpouse of guerilla.

In next version of CORE milita will recieve more upgrades from various techs, but another special doctrine... ok, I will think about it.
 
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Originally posted by Copper Nicus
The main problem with Guerilla in HoI is... that it not exists. :D HoI is all about regular forces + even militia is rather reserve, not partisan group. The way you suggest we can support China and maybe Ethiopia, but that is all. This doctine will not help any European partisans - and will not hit invader after annexation of defender, which is main purpouse of guerilla.

In next version of CORE milita will recieve more upgrades from various techs, but another special doctrine... ok, I will think about it.
Click to expand...

I still have an issue with the guerrilla techs. In terms of representing the loss of supplies and resources, they work great. But, they still don't do one key thing: Requiring garrisons in occupied territories. We may have to go with a series of events like we have for ComChi to do this in Europe. It would help some of those early over runs of Russia by the Germans if they have to keep divisions in Yugoslavia and Poland, and France. Or again, maybe this can be handled through teh AI. I'll move this over to the regional threads as well.
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
in next version of CORE milita will recieve more upgrades from various techs, but another special doctrine... ok, I will think about it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for thinking about it. And, IF you are interested, I've already made a simplistic doctrine tech for it, and I tested this tech, and it works.

I suggest that Ethiopia, CommChi (Mao!), NatChi (maybe), cuba (Che Gueverra), and Haiti (guerillas used for revolt) should all get this tech, because, historically, these countries all have many guerilla forces.
 
Cuba?
It's 1936-1947 game, so far Fidel and his buddies are not the ones that rule the island... ;) But seriously - giving this doctrine to Cuba you would give it to Batista-like dictator, not his opponents. That's why partisans in HoI are one huge improvisation... But I like the idea of China-like events in Yugoslavia and Russia.

Steel, do you read that? What do you think? :D
 
Unit Speeds

I have a question regarding unit speeds in CORE HOI v 0.51 with the Tech Mod -- are they all collectively too high? It seems like many of the mods in the past, such as Bolt, Stony Road, etc, one of the first things done was to cut unit speeds in half, yet in CORE/Tech Mod, many units have high movement rates.

Has there been a decision/consensus that this is now the right approach? Unit speeds seem to fast to me.

BTW, really enjoying CORE v0.51. Hats off on a great job to all involved!!!
 
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