Echoes of A New Tomorrow: Life after Revolution in the Commonwealth of Britain

[DensleyBlair]

To think a out it some more, the Germans have an even larger mining sector than the british do, especially as its unified right now. Which means they face bascially the same choice as the british will soon enough, and it'll be harder for them to toughen up and destroy mining (they didn't do this OTL).

That means no matter what, unless they go really green for some reason some other way, the germans will still be coal powered and producing for many decades to come. And also dependant on oil from the US. Especially when their car industry booms.

A related question is surely what state the German unions are in. I'm no expert on German unionism, but the idea of having to build back after the Nazis – particularly when the end of the Nazi regime was more than a bit fudged – presents a challenging prospect. Social democracy, even as a slight misnomer for German social liberalism, probably gives us some form of tripartite system to work with – but I dare say the government and the employers represent quite a strong two points in this matrix. (Particularly if one Hanns Martin Schleyer is around…)

Lots of potential for turmoil.

Now, the rest of europe not in Eurosyn doesn't have this exact problem. They'll be moving away from mining anyway because Germany is going to flood the market soon enough with stupid prices of coal to keep their own industry alive. So they have the choice of either buying from Germany, trying to become nuclear, or doing some mix of the two.

This by the way could be Eurosyn's in with them. No one else can offer a better alternative, unless they want to buy oil from the Soviets.

Yes – some sort of red Coal and Steel Community. Or 'energy', at least. The idea of Germany going a bit crazy and pushing until it gets undercut is an enticing one. I think there's a lot that could be done with that, you're right.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I'm no expert on German unionism, but the idea of having to build back after the Nazis – particularly when the end of the Nazi regime was more than a bit fudged

Yes – some sort of red Coal and Steel Community. Or 'energy', at least. The idea of Germany going a bit crazy and pushing until it gets undercut is an enticing one. I think there's a lot that could be done with that, you're right.

To be blunt, it was one of the reasons why the original Euro trade commission thing stuck it out past the 50s. France needed a deal for its ridiculous farming industry and Germany needed a deal for their coal.

And everyone else needed money.

TTL, europe still needs an international trade dealing committee (whatever anyone says), so eventually, inevitably, everyone except Germany is going to be brought to the table (which means Germany will have to as well). There's no way around it. Especially after the Soviet collapse, or whenever the US really gets into a depression (the latter looks more and more likely).

Eurosyn may have to...deradicalise. Or still exist, but be part of a larger EU trade body. This might even be a good thing, because it might mean that the Nordic council, eurosyn and whatever becomes of Germany's trade bloc all come together to create an overarching trade and trade standards Committee.

More trade harmonisation and larger surface area overall makes the overall ideal of standards being high and trade being fair and equal easier...although depending on your outlook, it could also be a negative because such a system would also inevitably embroiled itself in worker freedoms and standards, which inevitably leads to questions of worker movements, which also leads to questions of treatment, ethics and morality within and outside of the economy.

'Mission creep' would occur, but probably not as quickly or as 'successfully' as OTL EU.

TLDR; Much more likely to see the eventual development of the ETC involving the German trade bloc, the Scandinavian bloc and eurosyn, though I am unsure how it would affect the inner workings of each.

 

[DensleyBlair]

Eurosyn may have to...deradicalise.

…which will obviously become an extremely contentious debate, depending on who is in power/opposition when the call comes. It would be an easy enough argument to make against any sort of European free trade bloc that it were just the ECZ by another name – which, to be blunt, it would be. A bit less up front about its ultimate intentions, perhaps, and a bit more familiar with the language of 'ethical' mid-century capitalism, but the same manner of beast nonetheless.

Of course, there will be those who would actively welcome such a thing…

(…and then there are those like E. P. Thompson busy comparing European free trade zones to "a distended stomach")

“Going into Europe” – an essay by E. P. Thompson

The essay “Going into Europe”, written by the Marxist historian E. P. Thompson, was first printed in the Sunday Times on 27 April 1975 – the pre-Murdoch era, for anyone wondering. It was published …

againstreactionblog.wordpress.com

Or still exist, but be part of a larger EU trade body. This might even be a good thing, because it might mean that the Nordic council, eurosyn and whatever becomes of Germany's trade bloc all come together to create an overarching trade and trade standards Committee.

My feeling is that some sort of confederal European body is the more likely thing – probably starting fairly soon as a political conference of the various blocs once it becomes clear that the Cold War is pretty much over in Europe, then branching out towards trading standards etc as you describe. I can't yet quite envisage any scenario in which the blocs are superseded by one all-encompassing body, however enthusiastic old President Habsburg may be…

More trade harmonisation and larger surface area overall makes the overall ideal of standards being high and trade being fair and equal easier...although depending on your outlook, it could also be a negative because such a system would also inevitably embroiled itself in worker freedoms and standards, which inevitably leads to questions of worker movements, which also leads to questions of treatment, ethics and morality within and outside of the economy.

Yes, and this really is the kicker. How does a workers' state (so-called) square itself within a system which, it cannot be denied, is capitalistic in nature. Unless all of Europe becomes a confederation of anarchist communes producing and distributing goods according to need –but let's not hold our breath on that one.


EDIT: There are issues with that EPT piece, but god are there some gems too. He really wasn't holding back with this one…

This ‘going into Europe’ will not turn out to be the thrilling mutual exchange supposed. It is more like nine middle-aged couples with failing marriages meeting in a darkened bedroom in a Brussels hotel for a Group Grope. The gruppensex will rejuvenate no one. But in the recriminations of the bitchy afterglower we can expect a resurgence of bourgeois nationalist rancour of sensational intensity.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

My feeling is that some sort of confederal European body is the more likely thing – probably starting fairly soon as a political conference of the various blocs once it becomes clear that the Cold War is pretty much over in Europe, then branching out towards trading standards etc as you describe. I can't yet quite envisage any scenario in which the blocs are superseded by one all-encompassing body, however enthusiastic old President Habsburg may be…

Well we have the three blocs: western Europe eurosyn, the Scandinavian bloc, and the german bloc. Two out of three are capitalist in nature but both have some huge problems coming up (and only the Scandinavians can get themselves out of it with valuable natural resources). Meanwhile eurosyn wants trade with the other two, but doesn't want to become capitalist or see the former Soviet states (and whatever is happening in the balkans) go capitalist.

Meanwhile, Russia is on its knees, the former Soviet states are ruined, the US is collapsing in on itself and Asia is (presumably) booming industrially. Europe needs to work together, basically.

So what do they do? Probably the exact opposite of the original coal and steel agreements. National and strategic resources aren't covered, because nobody trusts the others, but consumer goods are. Eventually the germans are going to have to try some kind of deal for their coal (or fix their interior problems painfully) and France is probably going to have to do the same with farming. The British Meanwhile are fighting with the nordics over fishing and figuring out who owns what bit of North sea oil and gas.

Bascially so many problems converge on the (seemingly ideal) solution of a extra national trading committee that they'll have to at least try to negotiate one. I don't know whether it will work and there's no way schengen is happening in the 20th Century...but that's what I think.

Depending on how awful the US and USSR collapse is (and both have one incoming), will probably determine the strength or reach of this European Trade Committee.

Yes, and this really is the kicker. How does a workers' state (so-called) square itself within a system which, it cannot be denied, is capitalistic in nature. Unless all of Europe becomes a confederation of anarchist communes producing and distributing goods according to need –but let's not hold our breath on that one.

Neoliberalism is going to come in with a bang (or what this time line calls neoliberalism) when the cold War in europe ends and the german bloc sees how much better off the workers in eurosyn are whilst the government's of eurosyn see the german economy just skyrocket...

 

[DensleyBlair]

(and whatever is happening in the balkans)

Balkans will be touched upon fairly soon into vol 2. Kick the soviets a little further towards their fate…

Meanwhile, Russia is on its knees, the former Soviet states are ruined, the US is collapsing in on itself and Asia is (presumably) booming industrially. Europe needs to work together, basically.

Japan is solid I imagine, and @99KingHigh 's precious 'Asian Tigers' are certainly booming, or will be (look out for the Saigon Special Economic Zone). It's his zone of control, basically. Europe meanwhile will inevitably be looking towards each other at some point.

Depending on how awful the US and USSR collapse is (and both have one incoming), will probably determine the strength or reach of this European Trade Committee.

USSR I have more of a handle on. The US I'm not fully sure what KH is planning.

Neoliberalism is going to come in with a bang (or what this time line calls neoliberalism) when the cold War in europe ends and the german bloc sees how much better off the workers in eurosyn are whilst the government's of eurosyn see the german economy just skyrocket...

I perhaps see the emergence of neoliberalism as less of an inevitability (or at least pray that it isn't…) – particularly given the various ideological changes that have happened across the board TTL. And there are a few twists and turns left yet that it won't be so simple as 'German=rich, Eurosyn=happy' – but broadly speaking you're right to anticipate what KH and I have been euphemistically referring to amongst ourselves for months now as "the convergence".

 

[filcat]

(Many thanks to @Wraith11B, @Golden Dragon and @filcat for having kindly thrown votes my way already. It means great deal. To you latter two, good to hear you're following along to some degree! Do feel free to say hi if you're to there )

- No - do not comment and disrupt the timeline mate!
- But it says on the quote feel free to say hi!
- Look this isn't the 90s any more. It is forums, not icq. Don't necro!
- It even has a smiley!
- Sigh. It's your funeral mate. Whatever.

Apologies for the late comment after lurking for an extremely long time. Before giving (unnecessarily long) reasons to it, have to list the following that should have been said very, very long ago:

Remarkable story. Incredible fiction, amazing details with neat points showing rigorous dedication. Can only envy the labour that puts every word in every post in every story it contains with extreme and even more attention, carrying the dream beyond its horizon, reaching the stars, and extending to the nearby galaxies.

Kudos.



Apologies for the following distraction; for the reason of this late comment, would like to give the a brief history of filcat with respect to Echoes of a New Tomorrow:

dates according to computer timeline
Bang!
...
Pleistocene
playing Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
...
Late Pleistocene
playing civ1 - yawn - guessing this will continue until the end of times.
Early Holocene
Already using fire - early settlements - agricultural revolution
playing imperialism - well, this is a smart game.
Mid-Holocene
the era of TW - hmm, chic. Have to take necessary measures, otherwise will develop an obsession for this
Late Holocene
discovery of eu2 - hmmm, what is this?
The Discovery of Forums - check the bugreports - hey, what are these, 'AAR'?
era of eu1 - nice prehistory.
eu3 - yawn, tired of these bugs. Check the forums; no success. Hey, some of these AARs still continuing?
discovery of ck - paradox revolution - have been waiting for such a game since king's bounty to homm3, romance of three kingdoms to genghis khan
Current Holocene
Theory of gravity - general and special relativity - theory of flight - quantum mechanics - ... - increased computational power allowing better aerodynamic design of blades for turbofans
discovery of ck2 - yawn, steppe nomads not detailed yet.
discovery of vicky series - yawn, sadly played imperialism already, no interest for these, have to pass.
eu4! - the dark ages. Age of the love, age of the hatred, tragedy and comedy, despair and joy, and bugs, bugs everywhere.
ck2 - horse lords! The Golden Age begins. As every golden age, it shines on the outside, inside it is rotten with bugs, bugs everywhere.
stellaris? Naah, apologies but alpha centauri covered all the prehistory for that one. Have to pass, sadly.
~2019
Lurking, stalking, searching for the bugreports - Cannot?!, need registration - sudden shock- Allright, register. Nickname? what is this, irc? Just want to look for the bugreports, why is this succession type not working?!?! Sigh. filcat, enter, register.
~2020
eu4 - End of an era; exhausted, irritated, obliterated. Have to let go, goodbye love-hate.
ck2 - infested with bugs. Eeh. Enough of this.
Days of the Pandemic.
heey, already registered to the forums, can also interact, why not?
Wait, some of these AARs are still ongoing! Those read years ago, they are still there!
Check different pages - whoa, all of them have such AARs!
August 2020
The Discovery of Echoes of a New Tomorrow
- Hey, this looks interesting, revolution in britain. modded-vicky2, no knowledge, only a glimpse of idea. Still, let's see what it writes.
-- Check the first two chapters, hmm, commendable effort on the details.
--- wait, what, chairman m*sley?!?!?!
---- Close the tab. Delete history.
ck3! Age of ck3 begins.
...
23 March 2021
Heh, a fun incident in ck3 - why not write it?
- week later check the ck3 main page; hey, where is the thread?
-- Discovered that it has been moved to ck3 AAR page.
--- Allright. Let's put some images, whatever.
---- Heey, check the other AARs (ck3AAR page is still not part of the AARLand).
May 2021
Reading the other AARs.
Hmm, Echoes of a New Tomorrow. Allright, let's give it a shot again, drop the attitude, it may not be as thought before. It is an AAR, after all. It may be fun, perhaps.
- Hmmm, this is not as such thought before, yes.
-- Hang on, this is... this is good.
--- This is very good. Will not judge its view, the writing is very good. Incredible details.
---- (The Return of The Red Adder) No, not only very good, this is remarkable. -not reading this- was a wrong decision. Should have continued to read this before.
----- (Redadder's Christmas Carol) Still laughing on this one.
------ (Moonraker!) Yes, it was an extremely wrong decision. Should have read this back when first discovered it.
------- (6 o'clock news with Tony Benn) - was expecting Not the 9 o'clock news, but this detail is also good.
-------- Still reading.
July 2021
Hmmm, there are ACAs, and now registered. Why not vote for them?
- Certain on for whom to vote in ck3.
-- Check the old bookmarks for the other AARs. This may take time.
--- But certain for whom to vote at vicky2.


Errr... yes, this is a semibrief history of filcat with respect to Echoes of a New Tomorrow; summarising the reason for this late comment.
Sincere apologies for dropping after reading it for the first time; recently caught it up again, still reading the Death of Nye Bevan parts; have to re-read the Bevanite Britain parts. It will take some time but hopeful to catch up with its current updates.

Apologies again and terribly sorry for this deliriously long, and late comment.

Once again: Kudos.

 

[Wraith11B]

Well, the important bit is that you kept going.

 

[DensleyBlair]

- No - do not comment and disrupt the timeline mate!
- But it says on the quote feel free to say hi!
- Look this isn't the 90s any more. It is forums, not icq. Don't necro!
- It even has a smiley!
- Sigh. It's your funeral mate. Whatever.

Don't worry, the threadmarks keep the timeline in order just fine. Liberates the thread so that the rest of the time we can all carry on making all this wonderful conversation

Apologies for the late comment after lurking for an extremely long time. Before giving (unnecessarily long) reasons to it, have to list the following that should have been said very, very long ago:

As I say, very sincerely, I am always deeply appreciative whenever someone moves out of the lurking phase – no matter how long it takes.

Remarkable story. Incredible fiction, amazing details with neat points showing rigorous dedication. Can only envy the labour that puts every word in every post in every story it contains with extreme and even more attention, carrying the dream beyond its horizon, reaching the stars, and extending to the nearby galaxies.

Kudos.

>Commonwealth can into space!

Thank you very much, both for the generous words and for the kudos. It's hard to convey genuine gratitude through text like this, but please know I'm very touched. I can only hope the rest – however much that is – lives up to your opinion!

Apologies for the following distraction; for the reason of this late comment, would like to give the a brief history of filcat with respect to Echoes of a New Tomorrow:

Now this… this was both highly entertaining and very informative. (All we need is a bit of education and that's all of the Reithian values)

I hope you don't mind me filleting it and responding to a few bits like this, but it really was interesting to read how your opinions shifted through time. Deserves at least a semi-coherent reply from me I'd say.

August 2020
The Discovery of Echoes of a New Tomorrow
- Hey, this looks interesting, revolution in britain. modded-vicky2, no knowledge, only a glimpse of idea. Still, let's see what it writes.

It continues to make me smile a bit hearing this described as a modded Vicky AAR – which it was at the start, of course. I do worry that it's now basically false advertising. Maybe I should update the first few posts to make it clear that this is, uh, not a typical report…

-- Check the first two chapters, hmm, commendable effort on the details.

Fair play for getting through those. I've been back and read them recently, and I know it's always ill-advised to subject old work to close scrutiny but there really is a lot about the first bits I'd do differently now. The whole existentialist historian bit is, in hindsight, quite an odd choice for the opening chapter. But maybe it still works as a preface?

--- wait, what, chairman m*sley?!?!?!
---- Close the tab. Delete history.

Ah. Yes. That old chestnut…

I don't know how much stock we put in the old death of the author idea, but for those who are less keen on it I will say that this timeline was always intended quite deliberately as a timeline in which a revolution gets appropriated and corrupted. I never really made this explicit in the text because, frankly, if I'd done my job right I wouldn't need to. But I can empathise with the initial distaste. I do worry occasionally that someone might see this and think I'm attempting (god forbid) a rehabilitation. That is… not what this is. At all.

But if you've got this far, you all know that already.

I hope.

May 2021
Reading the other AARs.
Hmm, Echoes of a New Tomorrow. Allright, let's give it a shot again, drop the attitude, it may not be as thought before. It is an AAR, after all. It may be fun, perhaps.
- Hmmm, this is not as such thought before, yes.
-- Hang on, this is... this is good.
--- This is very good. Will not judge its view, the writing is very good. Incredible details.

There were quite a large group of people in the early days (by which I mean like… two or three) who said similar things about enjoying this in spite of its leanings. Which was cool to know. But then I'm not sure how many out-and-out leftists haunt AARland these days. I don't get the sense that most people reading are doing so out of a keen interest in this as a critical–fictional exploration of left-statist politics and government. I could well be wrong about that though.

That said, I'm very glad you came back to it and pushed on a bit. It's quite a slow burn at the start, I think. And I also like to imagine that it gets better as it goes on – but, again: could be wrong.

---- (The Return of The Red Adder) No, not only very good, this is remarkable. -not reading this- was a wrong decision. Should have continued to read this before.
----- (Redadder's Christmas Carol) Still laughing on this one.

In Which the General Reader At Last Discovers that Chairman Mosley is the Butt of the Joke.

I re-read the Return of the Red Adder the other day, as it happens, and I hate to say it because it's my own work, but I was pleased with how it stood up. (I haven't been back to Red Adder's Last Hurrah in a while, so can't speak for that one…) I'm extremely pleased that you enjoyed it as I recall it dividing opinion at the time. Mostly along transatlantic lines, I think.

The Christmas one was great fun to write and contains a few jokes I'm genuinely proud of. Helped lift the spirits (mine, certainly) at a fairly low point for this project generally (threat of total loss of all in-progress data, plus threat of Densely having to shell out for new laptop. Merry Christmas!).

Canonically Red Adder has now run its course, so I might need to find another vehicle for inflicting so-called comedy on you all. Yes, Minister is the one that usually gets touted. Or I could go for a wildcard and do Citizen Smith (anyone…? No? Fair enough…)

------ (Moonraker!) Yes, it was an extremely wrong decision. Should have read this back when first discovered it.

I have to say, I am particularly heartened that you highlighted the Moonraker episode. Those slice of life interludes were quite a bit of work, and of the lot I think that was the one I was most happy with. (Probably helped that I nicked the plot from Éric Rohmer…) Seeing it brought up like this really does fill me with a little bit of joy. Thank you.

------- (6 o'clock news with Tony Benn) - was expecting Not the 9 o'clock news, but this detail is also good.
-------- Still reading.

Yes, that one would have been quite the shock for anyone expecting more slapstick satire…

July 2021
Hmmm, there are ACAs, and now registered. Why not vote for them?

To all reading: This is excellent advice! Go and vote!

Errr... yes, this is a semibrief history of filcat with respect to Echoes of a New Tomorrow; summarising the reason for this late comment.

As I say, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it so thanks for taking the time to write it. It's not often (or at all) that someone offers you their full history of interaction with your work, so in a very nerdy way it was something of a treat. And, the most important thing, thank you for following along!

Sincere apologies for dropping after reading it for the first time; recently caught it up again, still reading the Death of Nye Bevan parts; have to re-read the Bevanite Britain parts. It will take some time but hopeful to catch up with its current updates.

Those are hefty. The last three in-game years (well, two and a half) have taken up something like 80k words, so its fair to say we've slowed to a crawl in relative terms. But this has given rise to an explosion in the amount of content, and I appreciate it is something of a task to read it all. (I know I've left a few a little bit behind; I'm trying not to pass too far ahead.)

Still, we are fast ('fast') approaching the intermission between Volumes 1 & 2, so there will be a chance for people to get caught up again. And I'll be distracted by going back to uni after summer, so this mammoth pace and scale will possible have to give out…

Whenever you do get current, however, I look forward to having you with us!

Well, the important bit is that you kept going.

Frankly, anyone who can keep going and get to the end deserves a campaign medal

 

[DensleyBlair]

1967 election: Press endorsements


Daily Herald

Format: Tabloid (‘Manchester’[1])
Ave. circulation: 3,650,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Centre-left
Party endorsed: Labour Unionist
​

——————————​

[1] The ‘Manchester’ format was an innovation of the Herald's printing staff adopted in 1965, born of necessity after the break-up of the paper in 1964. Traditionally a broadsheet and the Commonwealth's paper of record, sharply declining revenue following the LUPA's divestment from the publication lead the editorial co-operative board to reduce the paper's size so that it was closer to a standard tabloid. In spite of this, the Herald retained its 'broadsheet' tone. ​

–– –– ––

Tribune

Format: Tabloid
Ave. circulation: 3,012,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Centre, Centre-left
Party endorsed: Popular Front

–– –– ––

The Mirror

Format: Tabloid
Ave. circulation: 2,587,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Left-wing
Party endorsed: New Socialist Front (NLC–NSF)

–– –– ––

The Morning Post

Format: Broadsheet
Ave. circulation: 1,305,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Centre
Party endorsed: Popular Front

–– –– ––

The International

Format: Broadsheet
Ave. circulation: 1,052,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Left-wing
Party endorsed: New Socialist Front (NLC–NSF)

–– –– ––

Daily Express

Format: Tabloid
Ave. circulation: 546,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Centre-right
Party endorsed: None

–– –– ––

Morning Star

Format: Tabloid
Ave. circulation: 394,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Left-wing
Party endorsed: CPCB (NLC–CPCB)

–– –– ––

The Observer

Format: Broadsheet
Ave. circulation: 255,000 (1966)
Political alignment: Centre, Centre-right
Party endorsed: None​

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Come on red, this time. THIS TIME!

 

[DensleyBlair]

Come on red, this time. THIS TIME!

Will True Socialism (TM) finally make it to British shores? Will Marxism be ‘coming home’ after 40 years of hurt? Can anyone unseat the coalition after 33 years of internal feuding? Find out… soon!

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

The lemonade rivers will save us all!

 

[Wraith11B]

Given that one of the original thinkers of Marxism (and quite possibly its best adherent) was Frederick Engels, and Engels lived for so long in Britain, would they not prefer to refer to it as Engelsism? I never understood (other than the combination of the name and -ism being a pain in the fourth point of contact) why that didn't take off... unless it was a Peter and Paul situation about who is the foundation of the church.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Given that one of the original thinkers of Marxism (and quite possibly its best adherent) was Frederick Engels, and Engels lived for so long in Britain, would they not prefer to refer to it as Engelsism? I never understood (other than the combination of the name and -ism being a pain in the fourth point of contact) why that didn't take off... unless it was a Peter and Paul situation about who is the foundation of the church.

Because one was a writer and one was an editor.

 

[DensleyBlair]

The lemonade rivers will save us all!

May all our troubles simply float away down stream!

Given that one of the original thinkers of Marxism (and quite possibly its best adherent) was Frederick Engels, and Engels lived for so long in Britain, would they not prefer to refer to it as Engelsism? I never understood (other than the combination of the name and -ism being a pain in the fourth point of contact) why that didn't take off... unless it was a Peter and Paul situation about who is the foundation of the church.

On why the British wouldn’t call it ‘Engelsism’… I suppose it’s sort of ‘six of one…’ seeing as Marx also spent many decades in Britain. He’s even buried here.

I was prompted by your question to have a look at the origins of the term ‘Marxism’. They seem to lie (surprise surprise, shouts the gallery) in a factional dispute amongst the communists after Marx’s death. People started describing themselves as ‘Marxists’ in order to claim his inheritance and assert their own ‘orthodoxy’. Eventually of course this meant that everyone was doing it. Engels apparently disapproved of the practice – less I think because he wasn’t credited than because he just thought it was stupid.

My hunch would be that people chose Marx over Engels specifically because the great work of ‘Marxism’, Capital, is credited to Marx alone. Marx himself called their idea of post-capitalist society all sorts of things – socialism, communism, ‘positive humanism’, ‘realm of free individuality’ (catchy!)

Because one was a writer and one was an editor.

I think it’s fair to say that they worked very closely to develop a lot of ideas together. And Engels did write The Condition of the Working Class in England, which was influential on Marx even if no one else read it.

But yeah, Marx’s name being alone on Capital probably should count for an awful lot.

 

[Anuerin]

I think it’s fair to say that they worked very closely to develop a lot of ideas together. And Engels did write The Condition of the Working Class in England, which was influential on Marx even if no one else read it.

Still popular as an A-Level history primary source, if nothing else.

 

[DensleyBlair]

Still popular as an A-Level history primary source, if nothing else.

I have a vague idea that it experienced a bit of a revival among the E. P. Thompson crowd in the 20th century. But I couldn’t back that up with anything…

I’ve certainly never read it

 

[Wraith11B]

In one of my poorly recalled first tour through Uni memory of a government class, we spent quite a bit of time on Engels rather than Marx for some reason. Don't get me wrong, we did read some section of Das Kapital but we read more from Editor Engels.

 

[DensleyBlair]

In one of my poorly recalled first tour through Uni memory of a government class, we spent quite a bit of time on Engels rather than Marx for some reason. Don't get me wrong, we did read some section of Das Kapital but we read more from Editor Engels.

That’s interesting. Honestly I don’t know enough to think why one might look him alone over both. But equally I bet looking at Marxism through Engels would be fascinating.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

That’s interesting. Honestly I don’t know enough to think why one might look him alone over both. But equally I bet looking at Marxism through Engels would be fascinating.

Seems unnecessarily arbitrary to focus on one half of a writing and publishing duo, but then again we did it in OTL because one had a very catchy name, appearance and was conveniently deceased by the time the movement caught on...