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Supervixens said:
What about the Baltic states? They were involved in WW II, though as micros. Well and to be honest they cease to exist in 1940. BUT, as an überpatriotic-hardcore-nationalist :rofl: I must say that I`ve already tinkered with the estonian TT-s (titties :rofl:) and as a Reichskommissariat Ostland (EST, LAT, LIT combined) with some added titties would make a formidable ally (read: another useless puppet) for ze Reich; one at a time the Baltic states are too weak to achieve anything much. Otherwise, I think I could manage Finland (is Finland in the list anyways, can`t remember atm).
Click to expand...

I will deal with them, but post your proposals - I would be really interested in seeing them.
 
cegorach said:
Lithuania - I have one, obvious proposal for a doctrine team, but I will present everything together so not now.

With Estonia it could be even easier. The country has no air doctrine team so I will propose one.

Bulgaria - poor, agricultura based economy, but it is interesting how dedicated and determined was their work on aircraft industry. I think I will work on them from this angle.

Siam is a problem, but I will recycle some ideas of my ideas for the CORE and it should be fine.

Latvia - not mentioned - should receive at least one team. The country seems the strongest and most developed from the three Baltic states - their industry for example. I will propose one team for them.

Much better.

Do you mind if I use the image for my, devious plans ? :)
Click to expand...

Great! I shall then add your nick to "Baltic states", Bulgaria and Siam.

To my suggestion - VLU Prostějov school - ok, I will use this. You can use the picture, it is a Czechoslovak airplane Aero A-11.


nigo said:
correct brazilians tech teams (pics, values....) and some new tech teams for brazil

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10124790&postcount=7
Click to expand...

Can you pick 2 teams from the mod and post them here with pictures, start dates, end dates and so on?

Otherwise I shall look at the mod and try to choose them myself but I am not sure I will choose the most important 2 of them.

Supervixens said:
What about the Baltic states? They were involved in WW II, though as micros. Well and to be honest they cease to exist in 1940. BUT, as an überpatriotic-hardcore-nationalist :rofl: I must say that I`ve already tinkered with the estonian TT-s (titties :rofl:) and as a Reichskommissariat Ostland (EST, LAT, LIT combined) with some added titties would make a formidable ally (read: another useless puppet) for ze Reich; one at a time the Baltic states are too weak to achieve anything much. Otherwise, I think I could manage Finland (is Finland in the list anyways, can`t remember atm).
Click to expand...

Supervixens - your nick is attached to Finland in the list (page 1). Oh yes, and to Baltic states, together with Cegorach.

cegorach said:
That is what I was afraid of - AI/player using teams for completely different purposes...

And natta - for God's sake - he is way too powerful !

Skill 7, three abilities.... that is a game-breaking killer team. It cannot be here, simply cannot.
Click to expand...

I agree. Natta really STRUCK my eyes when I saw the screenshot. Skill 4 would be much more appropriate considering the average level of Italian teams.

Cardus - as you can see there are several people who don't agree with your proposed skills. I want to believe that your stubborness is caused by historical facts you give us but Natta with skill 7 is just WAY TOO MUCH. Please try to be constructive and focus on our common goal - TO GATHER SOME TECH TEAMS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so that our project could be included in the new, fantastic Paradox Interactive product!
 
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LodovicoAriosto said:
Cardus - as you can see there are several people who don't agree with your proposed skills. I want to believe that your stubborness is caused by historical facts you give us but Natta with skill 7 is just WAY TOO MUCH. Please try to be constructive and focus on our common goal - TO GATHER SOME TECH TEAMS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so that our project could be included in the new, fantastic Paradox Interactive product!
Click to expand...

LodovicoAriosto I'm doing the test and so far Natta has been used only for Agrichemistry which is as designed.

On the other hand I'm playing as Sweden and no team is below 5. Moreover there are several skilled 6/7. Is that according to history? Please wait and see before saying that it's too much or not.
 
Mark1010 said:
LodovicoAriosto I'm doing the test and so far Natta has been used only for Agrichemistry which is as designed.

On the other hand I'm playing as Sweden and no team is below 5. Moreover there are several skilled 7. Please wait and see before saying that it's too much or not.
Click to expand...

Cardus proposed some teams which are MUCH BETTER than THE BEST HoI2 Italian teams.

Proposed Natta is one the best industrial tech teams in the world. It doesn't matter a bit that AI does not use all his superpowers but what about a human player???

I think that the only viable way to resolve this argument is a poll. Let Cardus make the proposal and the rest will have three days to vote for or against it.

What do you guys say on this?
 
LodovicoAriosto said:
Cardus proposed some teams which are MUCH BETTER than THE BEST HoI2 Italian teams.

Proposed Natta is one the best industrial tech teams in the world. It doesn't matter a bit that AI does not use all his superpowers but what about a human player???

I think that the only viable way to resolve this argument is a poll. Let Cardus make the proposal and the rest will have three days to vote for or against it.

What do you guys say on this?
Click to expand...

Natta is a Nobel laureate and 7 is according to what he did historically even before the war. What about yourself doing a test in order to understand whether the game is unbalanced?

As I cannot notice any issue till now could you please play as Italy and let us know?
 
Mark1010 said:
Natta is a Nobel laureate and 7 is according to what he did historically even before the war. What about yourself doing a test in order to understand whether the game is unbalanced?

As I cannot notice any issue till now could you please play as Italy and let us know?
Click to expand...


For crying out loud it is NOT only about what someone did historically, but what the industrial branch was capable of !

In game terms it generates exceptional economy development of not only chemistry, but also other branches - three ares with SKILL SEVEN is something exceptional and justified only if it can be claimed that the improvements would be implemented in the industry not one,two or three factories or some industrial center.

I will use my example and my proposal - Zaklady Azotowe w Tarnowie (industry and chemistry - skill 5) represent an entire generation of chmists, at least two major industrial centers (in silesia and in central Poland) and rapid development of the entire branch which also involved synthetic rubber, nitrogen based substances used for explosives and fertilisers (and extracted from the air) etc.
That based on local patents, on local inventions and on local developments and achievements of the entire chemical industry.

You have the president who is a chemist, the vice prime minister who was a manager in a chemical company, an entire bunch of scientists and engineeers and massive investments in the entire brnch of this industry and it is still skill 5 team with two areas of research. And yeas, there were people nominated to the Nobel prize as well...

Mind that for one Nobel prize winners there are at least several people who are NOMINATED which means they were considered a viable, alternative, as people with achivements competing with this of this or an other prize winner.

Should we use them to produce chemistry teams for other countries - say with skill 6 ?

Second thing. Mind that the teams are supposed to be useful for AoD so WILL BE able to LEARN and as such will be getting even better. With skill 7 team as a start it is possible you will end with someone boasting skill 9 in some time which will - I am saying it with full responsibility - be able to beat Germany or USA etc after relatively short time.

I am saying it is NOT proper and it is not realisitic and it will give Italy an advantage it shouldn't receive.

That is all what I think I can say in this matter.
 
cegorach said:
For crying out loud it is NOT only about what someone did historically, but what the industrial branch was capable of !

That is all what I think I can say in this matter.
Click to expand...

1) Crying out loud if you think that a scientist can excel in a field of applied research on its own you are FAR from understanding the matter.
2) Natta when developed its research in 1938 had the government back to him along with the chemical industry. In 1953 Natta was backed by Montedison.
3) Why are you talking without any testing?
 
Second test Italy: UK 1940

Second test Italy: UK research overview March 1940

secondtestuk1940.png
 
cegorach said:
Second thing. Mind that the teams are supposed to be useful for AoD so WILL BE able to LEARN and as such will be getting even better. With skill 7 team as a start it is possible you will end with someone boasting skill 9 in some time which will - I am saying it with full responsibility - be able to beat Germany or USA etc after relatively short time.
Click to expand...

This applies to every country: have you never thought that other countries start with teams even higher skilled?

PS

cegorach said:
Researching takes a lot of time and frankly after several months I have enough of it.:wacko:
Click to expand...

PPS

Mark1010 said:
After the two screens above you have some ground on which you can base your arguments but based on what you said before I'm starting to think that your believes are before any evidence.
Click to expand...

This is my opinion as well...
 
April 1941: Italians lost East Africa and in North Africa are fighting against UK. The struggle is at the Egyptian border and Italians are in Sidi, Rabia, Siwa.

May 1941: Italians lost Sardinia, in North Africa there is some back and forth but essentially the struggle is still around the Egyptian border

July 1941: in North Africa Italians lost Forte Maddalena ans Siwa

Jan 1942: in North Africa back and forth around the Egyptian border
 
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Second Test Italy: wrap up

After several posts where someone feared that the review to the Italian tech teams proposed by Cardus could compromise the game balance I think that I have irrefutably shown that this is not the case.

Regarding Natta for this test I changed the speciality from training to industrial_engineering. Even though this choice in my opinion makes a lot of sense it would be better to revert it in order to limit Natta only to the chemistry.
 
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Italian tech teams - Wrap up - proposal

Please find below my proposal after my test

ITALY
Code: 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1800 } 
		name = "Arturo Crocco" 
		picture = "T1800" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { rocketry aeronautics mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1801 } 
		name = "Beretta" 
		picture = "T1801" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { training general_equipment mechanics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1802 } 
		name = "Breda" 
		picture = "T1802" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { artillery general_equipment aeronautics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1803 } 
		name = "Bruno de Finetti" 
		picture = "T1803" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1804 } 
		name = "Cantieri Ansaldo" 
		picture = "T1804" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { artillery electronics naval_engineering industrial_engineering naval_artillery } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1805 } 
		name = "Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico" 
		picture = "T1805" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { electronics naval_engineering technical_efficiency naval_artillery } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1806 } 
		name = "Caproni" 
		picture = "T1806" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { electronics chemistry rocketry aeronautics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1824 } 
		name = "Borghese" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { decentralized_execution naval_training submarine_tactics small_taskforce_tactics seamanship } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1807 } 
		name = "Enrico Fermi" 
		picture = "T1807" 
		skill = 8.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1939 
		endyear = 1939 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1822 } 
		name = "Amaldi" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering } 
		startyear = 1939 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1808 } 
		name = "FIAT" 
		picture = "T1808" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { industrial_engineering mechanics electronics aeronautics management } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1809 } 
		name = "Guido Fubini" 
		picture = "T1809" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1939 
		endyear = 1939 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1810 } 
		name = "Macchi" 
		picture = "T1810" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { electronics aeronautics technical_efficiency } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1823 } 
		name = "Reggiane" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { artillery electronics aeronautics technical_efficiency } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1811 } 
		name = "Savoia-Marchetti" 
		picture = "T1811" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { electronics aeronautics technical_efficiency chemistry } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1812 } 
		name = "Lancia" 
		picture = "T1812" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { mechanics general_equipment management industrial_engineering } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1813 } 
		name = "Arturo Riccardi" 
		picture = "T1813" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { centralized_execution naval_training large_taskforce_tactics seamanship } 
		startyear = 1940 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1814 } 
		name = "Domenico Cavagnari" 
		picture = "T1814" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { centralized_execution naval_training large_taskforce_tactics seamanship } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1942 
		endyear = 1942 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1815 } 
		name = "Italo Balbo" 
		picture = "T1815" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { centralized_execution aircraft_testing fighter_tactics bomber_tactics piloting } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1960 
		endyear = 1960 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1816 } 
		name = "Giovanni Messe" 
		picture = "T1816" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { training small_unit_tactics decentralized_execution combined_arms_focus } 
		startyear = 1943 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1817 } 
		name = "Pietro Badoglio" 
		picture = "T1817" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { training centralized_execution individual_courage infantry_focus } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1945 
		endyear = 1945 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1818 } 
		name = "Rino Fougier" 
		picture = "T1818" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { centralized_execution aircraft_testing bomber_tactics } 
		startyear = 1940 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1819 } 
		name = "Rodolfo Graziani" 
		picture = "T1819" 
		skill = 3.0000 
		research_types = { training decentralized_execution combined_arms_focus } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1955 
		endyear = 1955 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1820 } 
		name = "Societá Montecatini" 
		picture = "T1820" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { chemistry industrial_engineering management } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1821 } 
		name = "Giulio Natta" 
		picture = "T1821" 
		skill = 7.0000 
		research_types = { chemistry management } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1826 } 
		name = "Ugo Tiberio" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { management electronics mechanics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1960 
		endyear = 1960 
		}

USA


Code: 
        tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1825 } 
		name = "Enrico Fermi" 
		picture = "T1807" 
		skill = 9.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathemathics } 
		startyear = 1940 
		endyear = 1953 
		endyear = 1953 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 114 } 
		name = "Robert Oppenheimer" 
		picture = "T114" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1953 
		endyear = 1953 
		}
 
Re. Natta, a bit of google-fu indicates that he's known for his work in organic chemistry in general and polymers in specific. Chemistry and Management at skill 6 looks to be suitable for him, given that he's not an industrial kind of guy. In terms of skill 9, Britain has 3 (Alan Turing, Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, Supermarine), America has 3 (Oppenheimer, Norfolk Naval Yard, Texas Oil Company), Japan has 1 (Isoroku Yamamoto), and Germany has the same amount as the others combined o_O (IG Farben, Krupp, Messerschmitt, Porsche, Werner von Braun, Erich von Manstein, Heinz Guderian). 14 teams in total, with half the majors (FRA, ITA, SOV) with no skill 9s at all. Skill 8 is only slightly less skilled, for guys like Henry Ford, who INVENTED the assembly line, or Hugh Dowding, who directed the British effort against the Blitz. Skill 7 with Chemistry and Management, without Industrial Efficiency, is iffy. Skill 6 with Chemistry and Management is solid. Remember, for skill 7 you're competing with guys like Omar Bradley and Dwight Eisenhower...does Natta match up to that?

EDIT: China teams. CHC for first one and CHA for second.

Code: 
tech_team = { 
		id = { type = "" id = "" } 
		name = "PLA General Staff Department" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { large_unit_tactics centralized_execution infantry_focus individual_courage } 
		startyear = 1950 
		endyear = 1970
		} 

tech_team = { 
		id = { type = "" id = "" } 
		name = "Whampoa Military Academy" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 5.0000 
		research_types = { training large_unit_tactics centralized_execution combined_arms_focus } 
		startyear = 1950
		endyear = 1970
		}

Thoughts?

EDIT again: For ComChi's Industry team...Deng Xiaoping I believe should stay, but I also think something else, skill 4~, with Industrial Efficiency, Chemistry, and Management should be put in, representing institutionalization of industrial progress/research. Thoughts?
 
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Actually I would suggest to reconsider Lancia. The company was an auto maker and it was specialized on trucks (e.g. Lancia 3/Ro http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_3Ro) the armoured cars (Lancia Lince) and the Ansaldo - Lancia self propelled cannon. Hence I would suggest the company to best suit with the development of motorized infantry and armoured cars:

Code: 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1812 } 
		name = "Lancia" 
		picture = "T1812" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { mechanics general_equipment artillery training technical_efficiency } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		}

Regarding Natta as I have first proposed him, I really think that he deserves 7 that is one skill more than your "PLA General Staff Department"! :)

The reasons are the ones above mentioned:

1) He was a genius
2) He started researching in 1927 and became director in 1933
3) In 1938 researched the synthetic rubber in Italy and he was the first to accomplish physical separation of butadiene
4) He was a Nobel laureate
5) As shown - with industrial_engineering added in the test - the skill 7 for Natta doesn't alter the game balance

PS

I'm thinking about the 5th team
 
Right, but researching synthetic rubber is a chemical feat, not an industrial feat. If he's a chemist, he shouldn't have Industrial Efficiency. If other people think him with skill 7 and chem/management is justified, I won't object. What I'm objecting to is giving a chemist a factory manager's skills.

And the skill level of teams I've suggested don't come into it. Don't start suggesting that they do.
 
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