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Cardus said:
I took this research seriously and I'm doing a deep review of Italian tech teams trying to distinguish between opinions and facts. Based only on the facts I'm trying to be as much fair as I can. Please note that all the posts I made are with their respective references. This means that if you want to discuss about facts I'm available otherwise I can't help.

Regarding facts you did a second mistake: the first was attributing to Natta a Nobel Prize (1963) on the same instant he did the research and now saying that he was appointed director because "the director at the time was demoted for being jewish". I would like to suggest you to read more carefully what has been written/quoted. Natta before being appointed director in Milan in 1938 was already "director of the Institute of Industrial Chemistry at the Polytechnic of Turin".

Last but not least I reported a major research done by Natta (and quoted by the Noble prize Academy which should tell you something) in 1938: "In 1938 Prof. Natta began to study the production of synthetic rubber in Italy; he took part in research work on butadiene and was the first to accomplish physical separation of butadiene from 1-butadiene by a new method of extractive distillation."

I agree that this wasn't the research that granted the Nobel Prize to Natta but, on the other hand, you cannot discard it because it doesn't match your personal opinions.
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Actually I made it very clear I was talking about his appointment in Milan, which supposedly was a more "prestigious" position. And you're saying he should start the game with a higher skill lvl, and the game starts in 1936, and his discoveries were after that year, all or at least most of them, meaning he 'gained skill' over time, which he will do. But you wanna give him a higher skill lvl. This is a game, not a history book, and as such we have to take into account the fact that we are not to break the game balance, while at the same time providing historical facts to support our claims.
 
Athe said:
Actually I made it very clear I was talking about his appointment in Milan, which supposedly was a more "prestigious" position. And you're saying he should start the game with a higher skill lvl, and the game starts in 1936, and his discoveries were after that year, all or at least most of them, meaning he 'gained skill' over time, which he will do. But you wanna give him a higher skill lvl. This is a game, not a history book, and as such we have to take into account the fact that we are not to break the game balance, while at the same time providing historical facts to support our claims.
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Natta started researching (as professor) in 1933 and he was appointed director in 1936 (even a genius, usually, needs some time before being promoted). It's first important research was in 1938. Even in the game a tech team needs some time to perform a research. So this is consistent with the games' rules.

Regarding the history or facts, in my humble opinion, if you don't take into account them the only ground left is your opinion and, as I said before, on opinions I can't help.

Last but not least usually I'm testing my proposal in order to avoid any game unbalances. Again I invite everybody in doing the same.

EDIT

I made a mistake so I have to apologize about it: Natta started researching and teaching in 1927. He became professor in 1933 and he was appointed director the same year.

"Giulio Natta was born at Imperia on February 26, 1903. He graduated in Chemical Engineering at the Polytechnic of Milan in 1924 and passed the examinations entitling him to teach there in 1927. In 1933 he was established on the staff of Pavia University as a full professor and at the same time was appointed director of the Institute of General Chemistry at that University"

From http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1963/natta-bio.html
 
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Cardus said:
Natta started researching (as professor) in 1933 and he was appointed director in 1936 (even a genius, usually, needs some time before being promoted). It's first important research was in 1938. Even in the game a tech team needs some time to perform a research. So this is consistent with the games' rules.

Regarding the history or facts, in my humble opinion, if you don't take into account them the only ground left is your opinion and, as I said before, on opinions I can't help.

Last but not least usually I'm testing my proposal in order to avoid any game unbalances. Again I invite everybody in doing the same.

EDIT

I made a mistake so I have to apologize about it. Natta started researching and teaching in 1927. He become professor in 1933 and he was appointed director the same year.

"Giulio Natta was born at Imperia on February 26, 1903. He graduated in Chemical Engineering at the Polytechnic of Milan in 1924 and passed the examinations entitling him to teach there in 1927. In 1933 he was established on the staff of Pavia University as a full professor and at the same time was appointed director of the Institute of General Chemistry at that University"

From http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1963/natta-bio.html
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Indded, he was appointed director at Pavia in 1933, but he only got to director in Milan several years later. And once more, I'm not discussing his skills in real life, but his skills in the game. He's going to gain skill as time progresses, which would be consistent with his advances in research, so, in my opinion there is no point in giving him any extra skill, as it would only result in an early game advantage for Italy, a country which is meant to be relatively weak among the majors.
 
Athe said:
Indded, he was appointed director at Pavia in 1933, but he only got to director in Milan several years later. And once more, I'm not discussing his skills in real life, but his skills in the game. He's going to gain skill as time progresses, which would be consistent with his advances in research, so, in my opinion there is no point in giving him any extra skill, as it would only result in an early game advantage for Italy, a country which is meant to be relatively weak among the majors.
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No he was appointed director the same year (1933). Please read.

My mystake is that I have reported its promotion on 1936 instead of 1933.
 
Cardus said:
No he was appointed director the same year (1933). Please read.

My mystake is that I have reported its promotion on 1936 instead of 1933.
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You read your own statement. He was appointed director at Pavia in '33, then he was a professor at Rome University in '35, and then he was Director at Turin in '36. Then he became head of the department of chemical engineering at Milan, after his 'predecessor' had to step down for being jewish.
 
LodovicoAriosto said:
Thank you. What do you say on this?:

Lithuania - one new team?
Estonia - one new team?
Bulgaria - a careful overhaul? (one-two teams away, two or three teams in)
Siam - the same as Bulgaria?
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Lithuania - the country was rather poor and there is vry little information about its industry. For example I found some rumours they had an ammunition - possibly small arms factry somewhere, but nothing more except the fact they still imported rifles, machhine guns etc.
I have one, obvious proposal for a doctrine team, but I will present everything together so not now.

With Estonia it could be even easier. The country has no air doctrine team so I will propose one. The country had no real air force, but it was working on it so should be not condemned to never receive any team for that.

Bulgaria - poor, agricultura based economy, but it is interesting how dedicated and determined was their work on aircraft industry. I think I will work on them from this angle.

Siam is a problem, but I will recycle some ideas of my ideas for the CORE and it should be fine.

Latvia - not mentioned - should receive at least one team. The country seems the strongest and most developed from the three Baltic states - their industry for example. I will propose one team for them.



BTW, I revised my proposal of tech teams for CZE

I merged two flying aces to the school which they attended. It was Vojenské letecké učiliště in Prostějov.

Start date 1930 (default)
End date 1970 (default)

(it lasted from 1938 to 1973)

Click to expand...

Much better.

Do you mind if I use the image for my, devious plans ? :)
 
Athe said:
You read your own statement. He was appointed director at Pavia in '33, then he was a professor at Rome University in '35, and then he was Director at Turin in '36. Then he became head of the department of chemical engineering at Milan, after his 'predecessor' had to step down for being jewish.
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So, again, he was appointed director the first time in 1933 and not in 1936.
 
From Volume 29 of Advances in Catalysis & Related Subjects
Author W. G. Frankenburg
Editor D. D. Eley
Edition illustrated
Publisher Academic Press, 1980
ISBN 0120078295, 9780120078295

at page XIII: since 1937 Natta "became involved with applied research, which lead to the production of synthetic rubber in Italy, at the Institute in 1938."... "At the same time he made important contributions to the understanding of the kinetics of some catalytic processes in both the heterogeneous (methanol synsthesis) and homogeneous (oxosynthesys) phase."

Hence my proposal for Natta is skill 7. I'm going to test it.
 
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Athe said:
Whatever, mate. Give him skill 20 if you want. You've been trying to overpower the Italians since post 1, so I guess I could just stop the argument here, it's like hitting my head against a wall.
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Overpower or fairly assess with facts and references?

PS

Even though Natta or Fermi or whoever in Italy could have been the greatest genius ever born, as I said many times, I keep down their skills in order to avoid game unbalances.
 
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Athe said:
Quite ironic, don't you think?
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Athe said:
Whatever, mate. Give him skill 20 if you want. You've been trying to overpower the Italians since post 1, so I guess I could just stop the argument here, it's like hitting my head against a wall.
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You proposed 20 I'm proposing 7 to a Nobel Prize that, among others, gave to Italy the synthetic rubber in 1938. I think that I'm quite fair.

PS

At the end of the day 7 is just 2 levels above the Grifols which is 5 in chemistry
 
Yeah, 2 more lvls and 2 more research fields. You have to be fucking kidding me. Jesus, giving skill 7 to a guy just because he was director at a University. Why don't we have Italy's teams all increased to skill 20 while we are at it?
 
Uh... they had a prototype jet aircraft that would never be practical. Why give rocketry for that lol.

Same with whatever the hell the guy did with synthetic rubber.

TT's represent more than just lab experiments. What came of the research had to also be funded and practical uses found. Its also more of a name to a nation-wide skill. Von Braun's skill isn't just because he was a smart guy. Its also there because of the heavy funding, many other scientists helping, and the actual usefulness and things accomplished with rocketry in Germany in general.

TT's even need to be industrially possible. Why? If something is researched it needs to be realistic it could be produced. Realistic that Italy with such poor aircraft manufacturing and experience and a small industrial base could produce useful jet fighters in large numbers? No. Maybe they could, but it would be hard (like not having Rocketry expertise). So don't give them a rocketry tech. Its simple.
 
Partygirl said:
TT's even need to be industrially possible. Why? If something is researched it needs to be realistic it could be produced. Realistic that Italy with such poor aircraft manufacturing and experience and a small industrial base could produce useful jet fighters in large numbers? No. Maybe they could, but it would be hard (like not having Rocketry expertise). So don't give them a rocketry tech. Its simple.
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Wrong. You can have the most advanced infantry rifle in the world, but without the IC you can't upgrade any of your divisions. Design and production are two very separate things.
 
Test

I'm doing a test playing as Sweden to check what will happen with the following tech teams

ITALY
Code: 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1800 } 
		name = "Arturo Crocco" 
		picture = "T1800" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { aeronautics rocketry mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1806 } 
		name = "Caproni" 
		picture = "T1806" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { rocketry electronics chemistry aeronautics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1824 } 
		name = "Borghese" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { decentralized_execution naval_training small_taskforce_tactics submarine_tactics seamanship } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
		tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1807 } 
		name = "Enrico Fermi" 
		picture = "T1807" 
		skill = 8.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1939 
		endyear = 1939 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1822 } 
		name = "Amaldi" 
		picture = "" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering } 
		startyear = 1939 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1823 } 
		name = "Reggiane" 
		picture = "T1810" 
		skill = 6.0000 
		research_types = { electronics artillery aeronautics technical_efficiency } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1821 } 
		name = "Giulio Natta" 
		picture = "T1821" 
		skill = 7.0000 
		research_types = { chemistry training management } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1970 
		endyear = 1970 
		}

USA


Code: 
        tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 1825 } 
		name = "Enrico Fermi" 
		picture = "T1807" 
		skill = 9.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathemathics } 
		startyear = 1940 
		endyear = 1953 
		endyear = 1953 
		} 
	tech_team = { 
		id = { type = 10 id = 114 } 
		name = "Robert Oppenheimer" 
		picture = "T114" 
		skill = 4.0000 
		research_types = { nuclear_physics nuclear_engineering mathematics } 
		startyear = 1930 
		endyear = 1953 
		endyear = 1953 
		}
 
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Test Italy 1936 - First screen

First screen
italy1936test.png
 
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