Guys, you don't even know how TT slots will be added. And I much rather everyone had more TTs than introducing arbitrary limitations.
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I'd say the general aversion against Bhutan or Nepal gaining a naval techteam is way overboard, like modern day Switzerland they should be able to get a brown water navy, maybe only effective in training marines or engineers, but still a part which could be made useful for a mountain region nation.
Now Switzerlands brown water navy is a part of their army but that doesn't mean that you send a assault-carbine maker at making boats or some such...
As for an air-force tech team, that may be to make anti-air guns or rockets, still some aerodynamics knowledge will be useful in the kind of research.
Or one maybe could have air and navy techteams as a result of a tech already taken by the major players in the war?
Just saying no effectively kills the fun in playing such countries, just because a nation has a techteam doesn't mean a computerplayer will use it.
/Zorbeltuss
Now Switzerlands brown water navy is a part of their army but that doesn't mean that you send a assault-carbine maker at making boats or some such...
As for an air-force tech team, that may be to make anti-air guns or rockets, still some aerodynamics knowledge will be useful in the kind of research.
Or one maybe could have air and navy techteams as a result of a tech already taken by the major players in the war?
Just saying no effectively kills the fun in playing such countries, just because a nation has a techteam doesn't mean a computerplayer will use it.
/Zorbeltuss
The research made by cegorach is historical (nothing to share with Nepal building a carrier) so or somebody spots some errors or it should be taken as it is and test it for any possible unbalances.
I figure there ought to be a set of generic low-skill level tech teams which can be used by any minor or country without a tech team in a given area. I mean really low-level, skill 1 probably, with only a few specialization areas. While everyone could have the land/economics/university generic teams, only people with a port or airbase could have the naval or air teams, respectively. An event could give a country this really bad generic team should they get a port/airbase when they didn't start with one.
'XXX Naval Acadamy', 'XXX Aviation Acadamy', 'XXX Marine Construction', and 'XXX Aeronautics Bureau', with the corresponding teams appearing once the minor has its first airfield/port. Starting at skill 1, with specialties in SLI and TAC/INT trees.
Yes it is historical, it seems to be pretty sound too as far as my studying of Poland goes.
What I'm saying is that there is a possibility of a brown water navy in a country such as Nepal which probably never recorded it if it had one or if they did, it might still be top secret.
My point is that it can probably not be researched decently but it would be possible though to assume that they could have someone who could research riverboats...
If this post has a negative tone to it I'm sorry, I've tried to clean it up because I definitely don't feel that way.
/Zorbeltuss
Ok, I'll just try to post this as clear as I can.
I'm not against having tech teams added, but against adding a lot of TTs. If we do some thorough research on any country in that period we can probably find a large number of TTs which are missing in the game, or some smaller mistakes in the current ones. Adding a lot of TTs (A subject I've failed to see the devs comment on) on smaller nations means a lot of checking (Skill, Areas of Research, Historical Accuracy, among others), while adding a larger number of TTs to the major powers would not only require less time/effort, but also, in my opinion, would be much more logical. I doubt Poland, for instance (There are plenty other countries in that very same situation) will get more than 3 or 4 slots on a regular game (If Research is still IC dependant), while Germany, on the other hand, will most likely get to the tenth slot, but is lacking a lot of historical TTs as well (The first that come to mind are aircraft manufacturers, such as Fieseler, Arado, Dornier, among others) which could be put to very good use in the game. I'm not saying only major should get new TTs, but if they are to be added, I'd put most focus on those countries which will be getting the most slots. [In order to do this, we could really use a word or two from the developers, in my opinion].
A little bit back on topic, I think cegorach's 'research' is actually great. If all of us would choose to focus on a country and find any and all missing TTs, we could have hundreds, if not thousands of new teams in a matter of weeks. But thousands is a lot. Basically, it's just too much, and overwhelming the devs with this won't be helping anyone. So my proposal was to try to put a limit on ourselves so as not to overload the devs, while at the same time contribute to make this game as good as can be. New tech teams are a must if there are to be more slots, but we should pick those which are seriously needed, not only 'flavor teams'. I would really like to know the devs opinion on this, as well as everyone else's, and I hope I made my point clear, because now that I re-read this, it seems a little confusing, even to me.
And last, but not least, I apologize to cegorach if he felt insulted or attacked by me in any way, and he deserves proper recognition for his work, even if our points of view are different.
I have already posted that we should direct our efforts to add 1-5 new teams to all majors and medium powers.
Majors will get most additional slots so they need new teams.
Medium powers won't get so many slots but they will be more fun to play with new teams (which won't be unbalanced).
Micro powers (let's say below 15 IC) don't need new teams because it would be too much work and not so many players pick them.
! The new teams shouldn't be better than the vanilla teams. I can understand that Poland had a paratrooper program but was it really important that much? For example, Czechoslovakia actually HAD a navy but I don't intend to suggest adding ANY naval teams to CZE. So anyone, please try to be sensible, this is not a Polish (or any specific country) enhancement mod.
Here is an incomplete list of countries which should get new teams according to my view:
UK
GER
FRA
USSR
JAP
USA
ITA - Cardus
Nat. Spain
Rep. Spain
Vichy France
Poland - Cegorach
Czechoslovakia - Ariosto (me)
Hungary
Romania
Yugoslavia
Bulgaria
Greece
Sweden
Finland
Turkey
Canada
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina
Nat. China
Australia
and maybe some more (Denmark?, Norway?...)
As you can see that is not many countries. 1-5 new teams to all these countries shouldn't be a hard task. Please I would be glad if we could agree on some program.
Cegorach: Thank you for your input. I recommend to you to choose 2-4 pre-war teams which you consider really important and scrap the other suggestions. This would make your suggestions much more acceptable to others.
Your suggestions about fixing vanilla teams are good and I think they could be all implemented unless anyone of the devs refuses to change the vanilla teams.
Majors will get most additional slots so they need new teams.
Medium powers won't get so many slots but they will be more fun to play with new teams (which won't be unbalanced).
Micro powers (let's say below 15 IC) don't need new teams because it would be too much work and not so many players pick them.
! The new teams shouldn't be better than the vanilla teams. I can understand that Poland had a paratrooper program but was it really important that much? For example, Czechoslovakia actually HAD a navy but I don't intend to suggest adding ANY naval teams to CZE. So anyone, please try to be sensible, this is not a Polish (or any specific country) enhancement mod.
Here is an incomplete list of countries which should get new teams according to my view:
UK
GER
FRA
USSR
JAP
USA
ITA - Cardus
Nat. Spain
Rep. Spain
Vichy France
Poland - Cegorach
Czechoslovakia - Ariosto (me)
Hungary
Romania
Yugoslavia
Bulgaria
Greece
Sweden
Finland
Turkey
Canada
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina
Nat. China
Australia
and maybe some more (Denmark?, Norway?...)
As you can see that is not many countries. 1-5 new teams to all these countries shouldn't be a hard task. Please I would be glad if we could agree on some program.
Cegorach: Thank you for your input. I recommend to you to choose 2-4 pre-war teams which you consider really important and scrap the other suggestions. This would make your suggestions much more acceptable to others.
Your suggestions about fixing vanilla teams are good and I think they could be all implemented unless anyone of the devs refuses to change the vanilla teams.
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Hi,
I see some nice enthusiasm and some good work on this thread, so I will say a few things in the hope of helping out.
First, this is a topic that you will see little from the development team on only because the tech teams are in readily modifiable files (.csv files under /bd/tech/teams in the Armageddon game directory and also will be in AoD) and our focus is on the changes to the game engine and supporting data, not on modifiable files. Having said that, I can say a few things:
1) The format and structure of the tech team files has not changed for AoD, so files made like those found in the Armageddon game should work just fine with AoD, too.
2) The tech team skill types are unchanged, so you can use those, too.
3) The number of simultaneous tech teams possible is still linked to ICs; for an idea of scaling, majors generally get ~8 pre-war. Whether they will want to pay for all of them all the time is another matter...
In terms of including files that may be generated in the base game, I cannot promise anything; but any work should not be wasted because the expanded files should work fine as a 'mini-mod'. If a set of files are done in time for us to check and incorporate at launch, who knows?
I see some nice enthusiasm and some good work on this thread, so I will say a few things in the hope of helping out.
First, this is a topic that you will see little from the development team on only because the tech teams are in readily modifiable files (.csv files under /bd/tech/teams in the Armageddon game directory and also will be in AoD) and our focus is on the changes to the game engine and supporting data, not on modifiable files. Having said that, I can say a few things:
1) The format and structure of the tech team files has not changed for AoD, so files made like those found in the Armageddon game should work just fine with AoD, too.
2) The tech team skill types are unchanged, so you can use those, too.
3) The number of simultaneous tech teams possible is still linked to ICs; for an idea of scaling, majors generally get ~8 pre-war. Whether they will want to pay for all of them all the time is another matter...
In terms of including files that may be generated in the base game, I cannot promise anything; but any work should not be wasted because the expanded files should work fine as a 'mini-mod'. If a set of files are done in time for us to check and incorporate at launch, who knows?
The problem with Rep Spain is that they ceased to exist as of '39, which means there is no way we could know for sure what they could/should get. Still, maybe checking some guerilla leaders (Guerilla was active till '50) to see if any of them is worth a doctrine TT, and the TTs they had before the war (and the update, for that matter).
Still, we need the devs to give us an answer on this matter, before doing any sort of research.
//Edit hadn't read the post from Balesir.
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Thanks. That means for us:
1. We can make suggestions and incorporate new teams quite easily since the research mechanics remains the same.
2. We should get our butts going to finish this job before this whole idea ends in mod status.
I would leave Rep. Spain tech teams as they are - I don't know what are their end dates in HoI2. Just let it be. Speaking of any new teams for Rep. Spain I would let a responsible guy for Rep. Spain to find a reasonable and historically plausible solution and justify it here.
Athe, do you want to do both Spain? A few teams for both, black and white pictures (96x96 pixels ?) and a brief clarification, hm?
The similar problem occurs in CZE or POL which had their existence disrupted. I wouldn't be extremely nitpicking in these cases. What the hell, there are many serious flaws in tech teams in HoI2 so I would let this on rational judgement and discussion.
IMO NatChi and ComChi should keep their teams as is until China is reunified. Once China does reunify, then their existing teams are boosted and they gain new teams in the more theoretical areas of research.
I can take care of Italy but I would like to repeat that this exercise should be tested in order to avoid creating game unbalances.
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A good idea! Do you want to do this job?
Otherwise I would prefer just making suggestions of new teams for both Chinas without any boosting of teams triggered by reunification. Let's be simple and swift. I repeat that we alone must accomplish this and have not got much time.Great! Previously, I have posted some suggestions on what should be included - names, black/white pictures 96x96 pixels and so on.
Italy has really crappy teams in HoI2 so please try to keep it this way
I think that skills should be around 3-5. Italy is not good in skill but in relatively big variety of areas of research the teams cover.
I can imagine around 3-5 new teams for Italy (as well as for any major power) if you don't object.
I will code the teams into a txt file and then post it here for anyone to test.
So now we have:
Cegorach - POL
Cardus - ITA
Ariosto (me) - CZE
(I shall post my suggestions on Czech teams soon.)
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I will upload the teams later - I will make the file changes and add an event sleeping/waking the teams when/if POL is a SOV puppet so that there will be no Rokossovskiy working for Poles against the Red Army.
I won't add Stalinist urges in the military, though - POL leader file in vanilla is small and it could result in a disaster like losing all air force commanders and nobody wants that (in the reality some 90 % of leadersin this branch of the military were SOV 'advisiors' because POL officers were either in exile, never returned or were arrested).
I already thought about balancing the skill/specs for the Arsenal - I figure some teams might learn and I guess that is the point.
The file will include the images I've already posted. I made those pictures (from various sources) so no permission from a third party is necessary.
I am granting it to anyone wh wants to use those pictures - it is no big deal anyway.
I only mentioned the paratroopers, the team is to represent the armored and motorized forces and their doctrine which was decent, but the funding wasn't.
That is why it is relatively weak.
Paratrooper doctrine and its testing was more advanced than in Britain at that time - first, full regiment was planned for 1940.
I am mentioning it just to make it clear that it wasn't some 5 guys wearing a parachute... and that still a team isn't here anyway.
Yes, river flotillas - those should have its own place I think, but perhaps as a technology.
POL had large river fleet and for example shipyard in Modlin even worked on sea vessels with two minesweepers-miners built before September 1939.
But you won't find a word about this here because I don't think it is necessary.
I could perhaps drop one doctrine team, but that is about all.
Almost all of my suggestions are specialised, relatively important teams + changes to the vanila teams which should be there from the start - unless someone will explain why actully Rajewski should disappear from Poland in 1939 regardless what happens - just like a dozen of his co-workers considering that cryptology was one of the strenghts of the pre-war POL.
That is the problem here.
In adiditon notice that GOP - which is Upper Silesian Industrial Zone - is not only weaker than COP, but replaces it for first year.
Personally I think the presence of the COP should be bound to the start of the 15-year industrialization plan (a plan which was working I must add - state supported, but not completely central planned) which resulted in the COP project and COULD result in other changes, which aren't amongst my proposals anyway.
Post-war teams HAVE to appear - CZE should receive some changes as well in that matter, just like many post-war communist countries.
We cannot predict who would be left in for example Belgium if SOV installed a puppet gov. in that country but at least we could have the real life post-war communist SOV satelite states at least slightly reworked.
I hope so too.
I think you should add some teams to Turkey, because, before the war, in both Army and Industry it was bigger than Greece, Bulgaria, an evenly matched/or better than Romania an Yugoslavia. Also, before the war, Turkey even sold warplanes to some Europan powers, an war materials,(bombs, supplies etc) to Greece.
I understand your point. But we must accept some level of prejudice which is in HoI2. For example, British infantry firearms were obsolete in the late 30s. Let's mention those crappy Sten-guns and the fact that the famous BREN-gun (used in Britain until 1980s) was designed by the Czechoslovak Brněnská zbrojovka located in Brno. BREN stands for Brno-Enfield! So I could easily claim that Czechoslovak team which is not present in HoI2 was superior to Enfield (skill 7).
Please, try not to fix Paradox mistakes, just add some teams which won't lead to any disbalance.
I urge you to choose only 3-4 teams for Poland because otherwise we would be obliged to add 7-9 new teams to all countries I mentioned earlier. We cannot focus on Poland more than on other comparable countries.
I very much appreciate your effort but let's be modest about the goals of this improvement. The main reason for this is little time we have. The game release is planned on December so I think we have perhaps 1 month to finish this.
Based on my knowledge about pre-war Poland, I think that is the only area where Poland was important. I support a little boost in cryptography tech teams (mathematics and maybe electronics areas).
I don't think that we should pay much attention to post-war period. But don't worry, I shall reflect it a bit in my CZE suggestions. But only a bit.
We don't have time and capacities to get involved in this kind of problems.
Sorry. I will add Turkey to the list above immediately. But what is also important - are you going to help us with it? Which means - are you going to post here suggestions on 2-3 new teams for Turkey?
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