I am worried the turkic tribes will get shafted in the Steppe dlc in favor of the Mongols

[Dkdm89]

I, too, thought that the lack of Turkic flavor in Roads to Power and Legacy of Persia would be made up in a future steppe DLC. I, too, am utterly baffled that the Steppe Nomad DLC will not add any flavor or unique content to the Turks.

As for ideas for how they could give them some flavor, here are the few things that immediately come to mind:

1. Sultanate of Rum forming in 1066 start date. The Sultanate of Rum is never formed by the AI. Hell, with the buffs to the Byzantines in Roads to Power, half of the time I see the Seljuk Empire lose its war of conquering Armenia that begins in 1066. The Sultanate of Rum needs to form in the 1066 start date if they ever want to do a First Crusade event chain, as that is what caused it.
2. Gokturk Khaganate restoration.
3. Something to do with the Bolghars. Maybe an Old Great Bulgaria restoration decision. Or decision to re-Turkify Bulgaria (similar to the celtic Reclaim Brittania decision, which lets you promote your culture in the region faster).
4. Avenge the Siege of Constantinople for the Avars?
5. Hunnic Empire restoration for Turks as well as Magyars, Scythians (Alans, Saka), and Mongolic culture characters.
6. Turkic clothing.

I’m not very familiar with Turkic history, so people more familiar with the topic could add more.

I think #1 is the saddest part with the game starting in 867. The chain of events leading to the crusades are not even close to reality, or the dominance of Turks/Seljuks. Turkmen don't even exist. It's like an alternative universe. Most of the time the Byzantines keep chilling and expanding, there's no counter to the Catholic or Orthodox powers in the middle-east and Asia.

 

[yokyoka]

Legacy of Persia had no flavor for Turks. Turks had no flavor in the first vision for Steppe update. It is kind of frustrating to see them keep being ignored despite their role in history

 

[Dragonrend]

The Mongols are popularly known as the masters of the steppes. If a game were to portray new content for the steppe region (most recently For Honor), the Mongols would be the first to come to mind.

Although the Mongols are indeed powerful, contrary to popular belief, they are not the masters of the steppes.

The people who shaped the history and geography of the steppe for a very long time are the Turkic tribes.

While the Mongols appeared on the stage of history in the 1200s, the Turks ruled the steppe from 500 to that year. If you look at the history of the steppe, you can see this clearly. Since we can start the game in 867, 1066 or 1178, this is even more important. The Mongols were only a small group among the Turkic tribes during these years. This is something that should never be ignored.

In 867, 1066, or 1178, important Turkic commanders and kings can be told in a very beautiful way in the upcoming DLC with unique scenarios. This is a tremendous opportunity. If the spotlight is only on the Mongols in the upcoming DLC and all the content is focused on them, it would be an insult to the powerful nomadic tribes living in that region, to the Turks and more importantly to history.

I hope that in the upcoming Steppe DLC, the content that was promised and will be done for the Mongols will also be done for the Turks.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

I think #1 is the saddest part with the game starting in 867. The chain of events leading to the crusades are not even close to reality, or the dominance of Turks/Seljuks. Turkmen don't even exist. It's like an alternative universe. Most of the time the Byzantines keep chilling and expanding, there's no counter to the Catholic or Orthodox powers in the middle-east and Asia.

Isn't the game alternate history essentially, though?

 

[The Russian Empire]

Isn't the game alternate history essentially, though?

I would consider it as such for the most part. There's really no way to implement a HOI4-esque "historical mode" in a game like CK, and I wouldn't want that, either. That said, there is certainly room for discussion about the historicity of various aspects of the game as implemented thus far.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Threads merged.

 

[peteoj]

The Mongols are popularly known as the masters of the steppes. If a game were to portray new content for the steppe region (most recently For Honor), the Mongols would be the first to come to mind.

Although the Mongols are indeed powerful, contrary to popular belief, they are not the masters of the steppes.

The people who shaped the history and geography of the steppe for a very long time are the Turkic tribes.

While the Mongols appeared on the stage of history in the 1200s, the Turks ruled the steppe from 500 to that year. If you look at the history of the steppe, you can see this clearly. Since we can start the game in 867, 1066 or 1178, this is even more important. The Mongols were only a small group among the Turkic tribes during these years. This is something that should never be ignored.

In 867, 1066, or 1178, important Turkic commanders and kings can be told in a very beautiful way in the upcoming DLC with unique scenarios. This is a tremendous opportunity. If the spotlight is only on the Mongols in the upcoming DLC and all the content is focused on them, it would be an insult to the powerful nomadic tribes living in that region, to the Turks and more importantly to history.

I hope that in the upcoming Steppe DLC, the content that was promised and will be done for the Mongols will also be done for the Turks.

The turks continued to dominate places like Persia and the middle east even after the mongols fell off, people like timur and babur were of mixed turko mongolic descent and continued to dominate the region not to mention the ottoman turks and the many turkic Khaganates in central Asia that faced Russia.

 

[DONGHAIZHIDABIE]

I think the Turkic nomads of the steppes would be able to get pretty much the same as the Mongols. Of course they will have new culture, new activities and new art. Given that the Eurasian steppe is a closely connected whole, there are many things that are shared by nomads, and it is difficult to say which ones belong only to Mongolia and which ones belong only to Turks.
As for the settled Turks represented by the Seljuks, I think they can be supplemented through Creator Content Pack.

 

[EasternTiger]

The turks continued to dominate places like Persia and the middle east even after the mongols fell off, people like timur and babur were of mixed turko mongolic descent and continued to dominate the region not to mention the ottoman turks and the many turkic Khaganates in central Asia that faced Russia.

Speaking of the Turco-Mongols that arose after the division of the Mongol Empire, it would be interesting if the division of the Mongol Empire event actually created those cultures such as Chagatai culture for the Chagatai Horde and a (Kipchak) Tatar culture for the Golden Horde. You can't really have a Tatar Yoke if the Tatars don't exist.

 

[Amina144]

mmm all this chat about Turkic flavor made want to get some Döner, now thats the real flavor.

Thb handling Turkic flavor is incredibly difficult for this type of game as they are unique compared to other more sedentary societies, they traveled long distances and merged with many different cultures. It is more difficult to have one "uniting" flavor if you know what I mean. Even in regards to mongols, as people said, they came fast, they went away fast, so handling them compared to Turks is much easier. But I agree, a steppe nomad DLC that doesn't even focus on Turks is still odd. Like you simultaneously have to handle Central Asia, Iran, Egypt, Anatolia.

 

[EasternTiger]

But I agree, a steppe nomad DLC that doesn't even focus on Turks is still odd. Like you simultaneously have to handle Central Asia, Iran, Egypt, Anatolia.

I don't think you need flavour for every Turkic-ruled state under the sun for the steppe nomad DLC, just give flavour to the dominant Turkic peoples who dominated 2 of the 3 starting dates. You don't need flavour for every minor culture like the Laktans, but the Khazars, Cumans, Pechenegs and Kirghiz should all receive some sort of flavour, as well as the non-Turkic nomads such as the Khitans and the Magyars. I hope that the steppe nomad DLC does not ignore the entire Western half of the steppe.

 

[peteoj]

mmm all this chat about Turkic flavor made want to get some Döner, now thats the real flavor.

Thb handling Turkic flavor is incredibly difficult for this type of game as they are unique compared to other more sedentary societies, they traveled long distances and merged with many different cultures. It is more difficult to have one "uniting" flavor if you know what I mean. Even in regards to mongols, as people said, they came fast, they went away fast, so handling them compared to Turks is much easier. But I agree, a steppe nomad DLC that doesn't even focus on Turks is still odd. Like you simultaneously have to handle Central Asia, Iran, Egypt, Anatolia.

Yeah they definitely should get some special cultural tradition to forming mixed cultures incredibly quicker than most other peoples. Anatolian turks in the 14th century where already pretty different from circassisn turks or central Asian turks of the same era not to mention how quickly the turks melded into persian society.

 

[Dkdm89]

Isn't the game alternate history essentially, though?

Sure, but there should still be some possible outcomes that are based on how things turned out in reality, no? I mean there should be a higher push for some events happening, where you as the player, can change.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

Sure, but there should still be some possible outcomes that are based on how things turned out in reality, no?

Well, 'should' implies some sort of railroading and I would hate that.

 

[Koppel235]

Again in this pic:

A Turkic-Karluk person has Mongol style clothes and haircut.This is ridiculous.The devs could at least give the Turkic long hair dreadlocks that exist in the game since the Legacy of Persia.

 

[vyshan]

Again in this pic:View attachment 1267808
A Turkic-Karluk person has Mongol style clothes and haircut.This is ridiculous.The devs could at least give the Turkic long hair dreadlocks that exist in the game since the Legacy of Persia.

agreed. maybe one of the devs like @lachek could take a look at this suggestion. It should be a simple fix I think.

 

[SerQlod]

1. Turkic clothing, hairstyles, mustaches headwears... especially the usage of colour turquoise in clothing. It's the colour of Turks dating all the way back to GokTurks. Timur the lame knowing this made palaces using that colour.
2. Turkic names because some still use Muslim names despite being Tengrists.
3. Events related to Dede Korkut stories and Turkic legends like Ashina the Grey Wolf where you can be taken care of by a female wolf and gain abilities from that could be cool. In fact, having a cultural tradition "Wolf-blooded" since it's a belief that all of Turkic people come from that wolf and that little young boy she took care of...yeah, they had babies together which made nowadays Turks, anyway. Another one could be Ergenekon where if your empire/khanate is crumbling, you get an event to escape into a mountain as your last resort with your people and start living there in an adventurer gamemode. But in the end, you split the mountain in half after regaining your army's strength to retake what's yours.
A quote from Wikipedia about tughs and the importance of Ashina (the she-wolf):

Chinese observers stated that the medieval Göktürks displayed a tuğ decorated with a wolf's head at their camp's gate in order not to forget their origin from a she-wolf ancestress.[10][11]

Something based on real life would be a Kürşat event, if you are raiding to kill an emperor, you get this event while raiding the palace because in real life, Kürşat actually attempted to kill/assassinate the Chinese emperor with his only 40 men but failed. Maybe this could be added when China is introduced into the game and if you, as a Turkic nomad, are raiding the empire's capital, you could trigger this event. Even events related to Kangal dogs, which were brought to Anatolia by nomadic Turks and are still genetically close to Central Asian dogs to this day, could be added, along with other key figures of Turkic mythologies/events.
4. Decisions to form the Xiongnu, Göktürk Khaganate, or unite all the Turks.
5. Adding Turkic military units.
6. Tengrist ceremonies like Uçmağ (afterlife beliefs), the placement of balbals/kurgans (stone monuments for fallen warriors) and the tradition of leaving runic inscriptions just like Orkhun inscriptions.
(Actually, a rework on pagan religions would be a delight in all because while Tengri is the sky god, there were other gods and goddesses as well like Umay. When a child is born you bless Tengri but you could also bless Umay for that reason.)
8. Adding the Kut/Qut belief and the importance of the Orkhon Valley/holy mountains of Ötüken, making it essential for Turks to conquer Ötüken. There's more to Ötüken than just being a sacred city for Tengrists or nomads. It was the capital of many khanates for a reason. I will quote from an essay, "Some Thoughts on Ötükän":

"In history, all Altaic nomadic powers fought to set their capitals there, such as the Hun (209 BC – 93 AD) capital LuutKhot, the Xianbei (93 AD - 234 AD) capital Ordo, the Rouran (330-555) capital Mumo, the Turk (522 - 744) capital Ötükän, the Uyghur (744-840) capital OrduBalïq, and the Mongol (1206 - 1368) capital Kharkhorin—all of which are in OVCL (Orkhon Valley Cultural Landscape)."

From Wikipedia about Orkhon Valley:

Moreover, a force called kut was believed to emanate from this mountain, granting the khagan the divine right to rule the Turkic tribes.[2] Whoever controlled this valley was considered heavenly appointed leader of the Turks and could rally the tribes. Thus control of the Orkhon Valley was of the utmost strategic importance for every Turkic state. Historically every Turkic capital (Ördü) was located here for this exact reason.

According to the Orkhon Inscriptions, when the Gokturks lost their hold over the Ötüken forest, they could no longer receive or wield the kut and the Turkic world plunged into darkness.

9. Here's a quote about Turks from the book Ibn Fadlan And The Land Of Darkness, Arab Travellers In The Far North Penguin Classics Copie to make a punishment event, if you will.

Adultery is unknown, but if they learn that someone has committed an act of that kind, they split him in two in the following way: they bend down the branches of two trees, tie him to the branches and let the trees spring back into their original position. Thus the man who has been tied to the two trees is split in two.

Here's another quote about Turks and their facial hair from that book:

All Turks pluck their beards, but not their moustaches. I once saw a very aged man, who had pulled out his beard, but left a tuft under his chin. He was wearing a kind of goatskin cloak, so that from a distance he looked exactly like a billy goat.

10. When the Silk Road is added, consider the Turks' role as blacksmith, could be a Turkic tradition even. A quote from ChinaKnowledge.de -An Encyclopaedia on Chinese History, Literature and Art:

In that area, the Türks were surrounded by the "nine tribes" of the Tölöš (Jiuxing Tiele 九姓鐵勒), but were subjects of the steppe federation of the Rouran 柔然. The Rouran called the Türks duan-nu 鍛奴, which meant "ironsmith slaves". At the beginning of the 6th century, when the Rouran empire began to disintegrate, the Türks again moved south, and under the chieftain Tu-men 土門, they started to develop trade relations with the Chinese border regions. From 545 on, North China and the Türks had regular relations. These trade relations perhaps contributed to their economical and then also political rise.

From Wikipedia:

Although the ancient Turks were nomadic, they traded wool, leather, carpets, and horses for grain, silk, wood, and vegetables, and also had large ironworking stations in the south of the Altai Mountains during the 600s CE.

11. Turkic throne. There's one example of a Khan sitting on a throne with 2 horses.

12. From Wikipedia, Irk Bitig, regarding the travel events (because we get omen events duh), some parts of this book from 9th century could be helpful for you developers (there contents at the end of the page):

Irk Bitig or Irq Bitig (Old Turkic: ‎), known as the Book of Omens or Book of Divination in English, is a 9th-century manuscript book on divination

I may even open a thread myself with all these ideas. I will continue to think more

13. Turkic specific celebrations and festivals
Nardoqan (a holiday similar in both timing and concept—celebrating the birth of the sun—to Yalda Night)
Paqtaqan (an autumn feast and festival)
Paynaqan (a winter feast and festival)
Sayaqan (a summer feast and festival)
Qochaqan (a ceremony for blessing, fertility, and abundance).

 

[Renarin]

I don't think you need flavour for every Turkic-ruled state under the sun for the steppe nomad DLC, just give flavour to the dominant Turkic peoples who dominated 2 of the 3 starting dates. You don't need flavour for every minor culture like the Laktans, but the Khazars, Cumans, Pechenegs and Kirghiz should all receive some sort of flavour, as well as the non-Turkic nomads such as the Khitans and the Magyars. I hope that the steppe nomad DLC does not ignore the entire Western half of the steppe.

Seconded. I think there's room for non-Steppe based Turkic Flavor in DLC about the Caucasus or Crusades or whatever, but the major Turkic powers during the current start dates need something with this DLC.

 

[Duarte]

you gotta love all this clamouring for Turkish flavour, justified as it may, be careful what you wish for, paradox's attention to specific areas or cultures isn't always to the better, case in point iberia starting two thirds arabic speaking, astur-lenonese and Castilian staring already separated in 867, the fact the christians in 867 start as catholic, when they should by right be of the visighotic rite (what the game confusingly names just mozarabic) and so on. so uh.... Careful with the monkeys paw

 

[Gwydden]

I have to say it was confusing to see all the uproar over Turkic/Mongol favoritism. I mean, there was no nomadic part to CK3 so where was the substance to fuel it? Whatever was in the 'steppes' of CK3 at this point was really just filler that was best left alone, to be honest. CK2? Were people bashing one another on the forums over this prior? I honestly don't know. I didn't care for Horse Lords in CK2 as it was too weird, and I didn't play CK2 much to begin with.

People in this forum are curmudgeonly and love to complain. I used to do that too. CK3 is a very flawed game. At times it frustrates me because I think I can see all the ways it could have been so much better; at times I get bored with it. But life's enough of a grind these days that I really don't feel like wasting it getting upset about a video game.

End of the day, I still have fun with every now and then; I have more playtime in CK2 and CK3 than any other games because clunky as they are, they offer a unique experience I can't get anywhere else. When I'm not having fun, I set the game aside unless and until I feel like playing again, and I do other stuff with my free time.

I'm actually pretty excited about Chapter IV, cause East Asian history's the only one I enjoy as much as European. I've taught the Mongols in a couple survey courses too, so I know enough to want a distinct nomad experience, and the dev diaries so far look promising, much more so than the extremely janky nomadic government in CK2.

Hopefully we get a Turkic flavor pack eventually. But I doubt CK3 development will last long enough for the entire map to be covered, so something's bound to be left out, and someone bound to be disappointed. I'm still bummed out post-Viking Age Scandinavia got nothing in Northern Lords and that it probably never will.