That will be 459.
Bossemanden does have a good point. If we bring everything way down, we might have problems.
Steele
Bossemanden does have a good point. If we bring everything way down, we might have problems.
Steele
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In 1917 Petrograd produced 1/3 of all ammunition for the front troops, so I think the city should be important. 
I'd say the cut averyone by 1/3 approach is not very good. There just doesn't seem to be any kind of reason to do it like that, and it will raise issues with regions not having any IC for improvements. If we want a simplistic approach to the IC values, why not just keep the original values and claim a different scale of measurement? That is far easier to do, and I'd say equally precise.
Unless we have data for 1914 (or '13, maybe) GDP, as 1938 GDP was apparently the measure used in vanilla HOI, the values will just be wrong, so why change them?
Unless we have data for 1914 (or '13, maybe) GDP, as 1938 GDP was apparently the measure used in vanilla HOI, the values will just be wrong, so why change them?
Woah, woah...back the truck up there. Who said anything about cutting eveyone by a third. The only country that has been talked about cutting by a third was Russia. Russia was not as industrialized in 1914 than in 1936.
As to killing regions with IC, I would prefer that no place that currently has 1 IC go below that, unless that province has less than 34 infrastructure (1914 has a lot less motorized trucks/cars to support industry than 1936, so industry would be concentrated around good infrastructure, at least that is my reasoning on this.). The cuts will no doubt come from the host of provinces that have 5+ IC's.
As to killing regions with IC, I would prefer that no place that currently has 1 IC go below that, unless that province has less than 34 infrastructure (1914 has a lot less motorized trucks/cars to support industry than 1936, so industry would be concentrated around good infrastructure, at least that is my reasoning on this.). The cuts will no doubt come from the host of provinces that have 5+ IC's.
Ah, OK, I misunderstood. That makes sense, then, and 1/3 is probably low . Of course, the GDP figures for 1913 would still be great, so we could adjust historically, and then do as Paradox, and abandon the strict path of history to balance things out.
. Of course, the GDP figures for 1913 would still be great, so we could adjust historically, and then do as Paradox, and abandon the strict path of history to balance things out.
Yeah good luck finding those GDP figures, I looked everywhere for those. My only hope is that Johan Elisson might have them in that 1913 Encyclopedia (You out there Johan?).
As for Russia, 1/3 might be low, but we can start from there and move to 1/2, and so on until it is right.
As for Russia, 1/3 might be low, but we can start from there and move to 1/2, and so on until it is right.
The best I've seen is the league of nations data, but I think that only has the budgets (but it has the 1913 ones, IIRC). Maybe a state budget = x% of GDP thing?
If you could post those numbers I would be most appreciated. If the numbers are satisfactory, perhaps, but the more autocratic governments might be eating up a more of the percentage (government spending out of GDP) then say the US.
St. Petersbrug was renamed Petrograd before ww1, St. Petersbrug sounded too German, apperantly.
Here's the link to the data
Having gone through it, there's data for a whole lot of things for 1913 in the 1926 documents. Unfortunately, not the budgets. That starts in 1923. So the effects fo the war are already in them.
Having gone through it, there's data for a whole lot of things for 1913 in the 1926 documents. Unfortunately, not the budgets. That starts in 1923. So the effects fo the war are already in them.
This may be of some use (or not). Amounts are in 1919 US $.
Code:
Expenditure on War ($ billion)
Total Per Year
Britain $38 $9.5 (4)
France $26 $6.5 (4)
USA $22 $11.0 (2)
Russia $15 $5.0 (3)
Italy $13 $4.3 (3)
Belgium $2 $0.5 (4)
Romania $2 $1.0 (2)
Portugal $2 $1.0 (2)
Serbia $2 $0.5 (4)
Japan $0.5 $0.1 (4)
Greece $0.5 $0.5 (1)
Germany $39 $9.8 (4)
Austria $21 $5.3 (4)
Turkey $2 $0.5 (4)
Bulgaria $1 $0.5 (3)
Figures for the smaller countries are guesswork - the source
actually said "Belgium, Roumania, Portugal, Jugo-slavia $8b;
Japan, Greece $1b" (combined, not each).
National Wealth 1913 ($ billion)
Italy $15
France $67
Germany $78
UK $85
USA $220Anybody out there want to tackle China? ptan54? Looking at it, it has in my opinion too many IC's. (Not counting Manchuria)
We need to adjust China to prevent them from building thousands of divisions. Mu suggestion is to cut the number of IC's, cocentrate on the Coast for IC placement, with a few IC centers scattered elsewhere.
We also need an accurate Infrastructure there, so while your tackling IC's feel free offer ideas on that too.
We need to adjust China to prevent them from building thousands of divisions. Mu suggestion is to cut the number of IC's, cocentrate on the Coast for IC placement, with a few IC centers scattered elsewhere.
We also need an accurate Infrastructure there, so while your tackling IC's feel free offer ideas on that too.
Might I inquire as to where you found this?
If we had national wealth for everybody, or at least all the majors and some minors (we could guestimate for other minors off that), we could just multiply those numbers by 10 to get IC's (1 IC = $1 billion US). Since the US was a third of the world's industrial power the ceiling could be 6600 (220*10*3).
Some more data, which will be extremely useful if somebody can dig up population figures for the countries listed.
Per capita GDP in 1913 - in 1990 US$
Australia 5505
USA 5307
New Zealand 5115
UK 5032
Canada 4213
Switzerland 4207
Belgium 4130
Netherlands 3950
Germany 3833
Denmark 3764
Austria 3488
France 3452
Sweden 3096
Ireland 2733
Italy 2507
Norway 2275
Spain 2255
Finland 2050
Greece 1621
Portugal 1354
Japan 1334
South Korea 948
Taiwan 794
Unfortunately, Russia isn't listed although I'd think that their per capita GDP was almost certainly less than that of Finland. Also, the source said "Austria" - not sure if they mean Austria-Hungary, or literally just those parts of the Monarchy which today form Austria (note that "Ireland" is listed separately from the UK also). I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary or Bosnia were much poorer than the region around Vienna.
Source: a book on economics which quoted as its source for this table, the following book: Britain's Relative Economic Decline 1870-1995 by N F R Crafts, 1997 Social Market Foundation. Anybody got access to a good university library?
Per capita GDP in 1913 - in 1990 US$
Australia 5505
USA 5307
New Zealand 5115
UK 5032
Canada 4213
Switzerland 4207
Belgium 4130
Netherlands 3950
Germany 3833
Denmark 3764
Austria 3488
France 3452
Sweden 3096
Ireland 2733
Italy 2507
Norway 2275
Spain 2255
Finland 2050
Greece 1621
Portugal 1354
Japan 1334
South Korea 948
Taiwan 794
Unfortunately, Russia isn't listed
although I'd think that their per capita GDP was almost certainly less than that of Finland. Also, the source said "Austria" - not sure if they mean Austria-Hungary, or literally just those parts of the Monarchy which today form Austria (note that "Ireland" is listed separately from the UK also). I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary or Bosnia were much poorer than the region around Vienna.Source: a book on economics which quoted as its source for this table, the following book: Britain's Relative Economic Decline 1870-1995 by N F R Crafts, 1997 Social Market Foundation. Anybody got access to a good university library?
The 8 Great Powers and some info.
1913 steel production (millions of tons)
US - 31.8
GB - 7.7
Germany - 17.6
France - 4.6
Austria-Hungary - 2.6
Russia - 4.8
Japan - .25
Italy - .93
1913 coal consumption (millions of metric tons)
US - 541
GB - 195
Germany - 187
France - 62.5
Austria-Hungary - 49.4
Russia - 54
Japan - 23
Italy - 11
1913 percentages of world industrial output
US - 32.0
GB - 13.6
Germany - 14.8
France - 6.1
Austria-Hungary - 4.4
Russia 8.2
Japan - 1.2
Italy - 2.4
1914 National Income (billions of 1914 $US)/per capita
US - 37/377
GB - 11/244
Germany - 12/184
France - 6/153
Austria-Hungary - 3/57
Russia - 7/41
Japan - 2/36
Italy - 4/108
Steele
1913 steel production (millions of tons)
US - 31.8
GB - 7.7
Germany - 17.6
France - 4.6
Austria-Hungary - 2.6
Russia - 4.8
Japan - .25
Italy - .93
1913 coal consumption (millions of metric tons)
US - 541
GB - 195
Germany - 187
France - 62.5
Austria-Hungary - 49.4
Russia - 54
Japan - 23
Italy - 11
1913 percentages of world industrial output
US - 32.0
GB - 13.6
Germany - 14.8
France - 6.1
Austria-Hungary - 4.4
Russia 8.2
Japan - 1.2
Italy - 2.4
1914 National Income (billions of 1914 $US)/per capita
US - 37/377
GB - 11/244
Germany - 12/184
France - 6/153
Austria-Hungary - 3/57
Russia - 7/41
Japan - 2/36
Italy - 4/108
Steele
Brilliant! The league of nations data for 1926 includes "Latest pre-war census or official estimates" for area and population. Followed by a 1913 estimate. The data is in thousands, but I think that discrepancy of less than 1000 people could probably be ascribed to "rounding error".
Let's see:
Population in thousands
Australia : 4.872
USA : 96.512 (Alaska listed separately, 65)
New Zealand : 1.147
UK : 42.890 (without IFS)
Canada : 7.412
(Labrador 4, Newfoundland 244)
Switzerland : 3.864
Belgium : 7.639
Netherlands : 6.213
Germany : 66.978
Denmark : 2.830 (Faroe Is. 18, Iceland 88)
Austria : 29.193 (post-war territory, or Austria proper, 6.745)
France : 39.790
Sweden : 5.639
Ireland : 3.110 (Irish Free State)
Italy : 35.598
Norway : 2.464
Spain : 20.370
Finland : 3.231
Greece : 4.810
Portugal : 5.974
Japan : 55.131
South Korea : 15.170 (Korea)
Taiwan : 3.256 (Formosa, right?)
Glitch : Colonies not included. Not that they aren't in the data, I just didn't add them up. Didn't think they calculated the per capita GDP of Portugal, f.ex., with the 8 to 9 million population of the colonies in mind. Probably just the near 6 of the european Portugal.
Originally posted by StephenT
Some more data, which will be extremely useful if somebody can dig up population figures for the countries listed.
Per capita GDP in 1913 - in 1990 US$
Australia 5505
USA 5307
New Zealand 5115
UK 5032
Canada 4213
Switzerland 4207
Belgium 4130
Netherlands 3950
Germany 3833
Denmark 3764
Austria 3488
France 3452
Sweden 3096
Ireland 2733
Italy 2507
Norway 2275
Spain 2255
Finland 2050
Greece 1621
Portugal 1354
Japan 1334
South Korea 948
Taiwan 794
Unfortunately, Russia isn't listed
Source: a book on economics which quoted as its source for this table, the following book: Britain's Relative Economic Decline 1870-1995 by N F R Crafts, 1997 Social Market Foundation. Anybody got access to a good university library?
Population numbers (as given by Elisson in the MP thread):
This might be what we need: site