In my opinion turning Indonesia into Shiite can be very interesting, but what about proper Persia? Will it be sunni? Or will the Nestorian Christianity come... maybe from the steppes?
Do You have any ideas?
Do You have any ideas?
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Well reading ibn Khaludn and Ibn Utrra of Khorasan, Persia should remain mostly Sunni, with the Shiites in Lut, Elbruz and Meched. Christianity should be forgotten, the whole idea is perhaps a bit too much.Persia was always strongly sunni, but it was the Afghani wars, the Savavid take over, not to mention the enforced Shia doctorine which made Persia Shiite.
Persia remains sunni, makes it a bit simplier for a Caliphate expansion there, and considering the Hindus coming from India, it will be more aligned ethnically
Persia remains sunni, makes it a bit simplier for a Caliphate expansion there, and considering the Hindus coming from India, it will be more aligned ethnically
But the thing is that the Kaliphate need an eastern enemy before the indians can expand there. What about creating a great Uzbekh empire with claims on Northern Persia,
By the way, I like the idea with a shiite Indonesia!
By the way, I like the idea with a shiite Indonesia!
We really should rename the "Khaliphate" into the Abbasid Caliphate anyway , if you want an enemy for the khaliphate in Persia, what better than the Persians themselves?Heh, just raise the tempo of the Savavid revolution, the Caliphate will have the choice of either re-strenghtening the position of her presence in Persia or having a Shiite Persia on her doorstep
Concerning the Shiites in Indonesia, I think Burma would be the best choice.Oman is mostly destroyed by the Caliphate, and Persia mostly becomes Sunni later on "though I think we should edit it to make a majority of sunnis there" and the Shiites flee to Indonesia.The 9th Imam of the Shiite faith will appear there, and asks his followers to spread the message to all the islands.We can have some intresting fights between India and the Shiites, and even China.Thus you have a mainland of sunni islam, and a chain of Shiite islands.We can trigger some events for the establishment of the Ismaeli kingdoms in Indonesia, the colonization, the fighting for Lanka...etc
anyway , if you want an enemy for the khaliphate in Persia, what better than the Persians themselves?Heh, just raise the tempo of the Savavid revolution, the Caliphate will have the choice of either re-strenghtening the position of her presence in Persia or having a Shiite Persia on her doorstep Concerning the Shiites in Indonesia, I think Burma would be the best choice.Oman is mostly destroyed by the Caliphate, and Persia mostly becomes Sunni later on "though I think we should edit it to make a majority of sunnis there" and the Shiites flee to Indonesia.The 9th Imam of the Shiite faith will appear there, and asks his followers to spread the message to all the islands.We can have some intresting fights between India and the Shiites, and even China.Thus you have a mainland of sunni islam, and a chain of Shiite islands.We can trigger some events for the establishment of the Ismaeli kingdoms in Indonesia, the colonization, the fighting for Lanka...etc
Calipah said:Capitan bob seems to have disappeared
I can help out with the Caliphate's enemies
Persia is fine, but it's <gasp> a vanilla country! I still like the idea of a Buddhist Ilkhanate surviving to 1419, one which is somewhat weaker than the Caliphate at first, but which gets stronger (and a bit more Buddhist in its provinces) if the Caliphate fails to take decisive action.
As for Shiism, could Zanj be Shiite? What about heretical ideas springing up in the Islamic Republic of America? At the moment Shiite in EU2 doesn't have the same meaning as in real life anyway - in what way is Oman a Shiite country? I think it's going to be an assorted bunch of Muslim heretics (under the name 'Muslim sects', perhaps?) with Shia being just one of the groups.
My proposal, Persia's provinces become sunni "since it was the Savavid take over which made them Shiite" - Buddhist ill Khanate? wouldnt survive really since the rulers would eventually become Muslims, its unthinkable.Zanj should remain sunni "for Egypt" my proposal is a Shiite indonesia where the "Shia paradise" is created. Regarding Oman, Oman follows Kharajite theology, so it makes sense.
Habibi, can u work the events Bob and I did?the thogor things, the vanilla events...etc?I would appreciate it
Habibi, can u work the events Bob and I did?the thogor things, the vanilla events...etc?I would appreciate it
I like the idea of a buddhistic Il Khanate, desperately trying to hold on to wrong religon provinces. As i said in the Cantral Asia thread the Il Khanate may break down in a lot of islamic and nestorian (orthodox) mini khanates. Persia could be sunni, since the safvanids are not in, but what would the idea with shiite be anyway, with no main shiite powers. What if we remove shiite, the heresy never were created an islam remained unified. Shiite could instead be zoradism, and a zaoradic Persia could revolt from the Il Khanate.
Well Persia in my opinion should remain part of Dar al-Islam
Shiitism, you want shiites, throw them to Indonesia ill-khanta, forget it
seriously though the idea of zoradism is nice, but most of Persia converted into Islam by the turn of the 9th century.
Shiitism, you want shiites, throw them to Indonesia
ill-khanta, forget it seriously though the idea of zoradism is nice, but most of Persia converted into Islam by the turn of the 9th century.
Why would the idea of an Il Khanate be so strange, in an aberrated history the khans may not have fell, and some khans were budhhists. I,m not arguing Persia should be sunni with the current aberrated history, since Persia was conquered in the 900 IRL. But this is abe, not irl, The islamic eastward expansion could have failed while the westward expansion still worked, we are removing islam from india, why not from Persia. and before you scream back I agree that even without an islamic conquest of Persia, the western parts of the nation would have been influenced with islam and possibly converted. In my idea Persia would have survived the arabic conquest, but later fell for the turks, however only the western persians converted to islam, while the eastern persians hold on to zoradism. Later nowadays Persia was conquered by the Il khanate. But the I Khanate was never a stable empire, and the khans were buddhists, which the rest of the people of the khanate weren't. So the khanate is doomed to fall in small rival khanates in the north (both islamic and christian) and a independent zoradic Persia. From the fall of the Ilkhanate a new confilct will arise over the islamic west persian lands between the new Persian empire and the Khaliphate, however the Persian empire is the weaker in the conflict and will later need to seek support from the united Indian empire, also the Persians will be attacked from an newly declared islamic Uzbekh empire which have feasted on the rests of the il Khanate. The Persians would be a hard to survive nation with enemies everywhere.
How about this:
I haven't changed the Timurids' starting provinces, but you can see roughly what I'm talking about. The progression for the Ilkhanate would be something like this:
1400s: Ilkhanate is horribly weak, having only Mongol culture, mostly wrong-religion provinces, and a load of BB. The Caliphate launches a jihad against them to save their Muslim brothers, and more often than not, the Caliphate succeeds in liberating Persia. There are also the Safavids to worry about, but only as an incidental revolter, and they don't get 'the Persian resurrection' to help them along. A safavid Persia is possible, but unlikely given that both the Caliphate and the Ilkhanate would oppose it.
1500s: By now it's likely that the Ilkhanate has been pushed deep into Central Asia, and has moved its capital to Samarkand. If this is the case they'll just be another Central Asian minor, and will probably get finished off by Bukhara, or the remnants of Yuan China, which will inhabit the current Chagatai corridor. If, however, the Caliphate, Safavids et al fail to liberate Persia, the Ilkhanate get a series of more tolerant Khans who are able to appease the Persian population (ie the country gets Persian culture). They would get the option to convert to Sunni or Shia, but it wouldn't be the default option. The Ilkhanate now starts to look a bit like the historical Mughal empire: the rulers are Mongols of a different religion to most of the populace, but they are reasonably well-liked, and persuade at least some of the populace to join their religion (the Ilkhanate can do this by missionaries).
Later: Who knows. If the Ilkhanate is still in control of Persia by 1600 or so, even the Caliphate is going to have to admit that it's here to stay. But the Khans' control of some Eastern areas (eg Baluchistan) will always be shaky, and later a rising power in northern India might try to take advantage of this. If on the other hand the Ilkhanate has been defeated, the area it once occupied will have a number of minor states, some of which will be under the control of the Caliphate, others dominated by India, and others still independent.
Also: would Bukhara be a good place to put a Nestorian country?
I haven't changed the Timurids' starting provinces, but you can see roughly what I'm talking about. The progression for the Ilkhanate would be something like this:
1400s: Ilkhanate is horribly weak, having only Mongol culture, mostly wrong-religion provinces, and a load of BB. The Caliphate launches a jihad against them to save their Muslim brothers, and more often than not, the Caliphate succeeds in liberating Persia. There are also the Safavids to worry about, but only as an incidental revolter, and they don't get 'the Persian resurrection' to help them along. A safavid Persia is possible, but unlikely given that both the Caliphate and the Ilkhanate would oppose it.
1500s: By now it's likely that the Ilkhanate has been pushed deep into Central Asia, and has moved its capital to Samarkand. If this is the case they'll just be another Central Asian minor, and will probably get finished off by Bukhara, or the remnants of Yuan China, which will inhabit the current Chagatai corridor. If, however, the Caliphate, Safavids et al fail to liberate Persia, the Ilkhanate get a series of more tolerant Khans who are able to appease the Persian population (ie the country gets Persian culture). They would get the option to convert to Sunni or Shia, but it wouldn't be the default option. The Ilkhanate now starts to look a bit like the historical Mughal empire: the rulers are Mongols of a different religion to most of the populace, but they are reasonably well-liked, and persuade at least some of the populace to join their religion (the Ilkhanate can do this by missionaries).
Later: Who knows. If the Ilkhanate is still in control of Persia by 1600 or so, even the Caliphate is going to have to admit that it's here to stay. But the Khans' control of some Eastern areas (eg Baluchistan) will always be shaky, and later a rising power in northern India might try to take advantage of this. If on the other hand the Ilkhanate has been defeated, the area it once occupied will have a number of minor states, some of which will be under the control of the Caliphate, others dominated by India, and others still independent.
Also: would Bukhara be a good place to put a Nestorian country?
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Bukhara could be a nestorian country, I guess, but IRL the nestorian infuence were more eastwards. The Chagatai Khanate could for example be nestorian since there were some influence among the uyghurs. But during the mongol invasion many tribes moved, so it's not too farfetched that some nestorian tribes would have settled in the Bukhara areas sometimes in the 1200s or 1300s.
Still I think a zoradic Persia would be fu, and the ultmiate goal for the Ilkhanate would be to fall apart (and only a human player could survive and create it to a stable empire).
Still I think a zoradic Persia would be fu, and the ultmiate goal for the Ilkhanate would be to fall apart (and only a human player could survive and create it to a stable empire).
yourworstnightm said:
What does 'zoradic' mean? I can't find anything about it on Google. Do you mean Zoroastrianism?
A Zoroastrian Persia would certainly make sense. Perhaps we could use 'Confucian' province religion to represent it, and also we could spread it further east, towards the edge of the Hindu world. (I don't like the idea of the Zoroastrians being force-converted to Sunni.) But if ancient Zoroastrian Persia had fended off the Muslims, would it ever have been conquered by the Mongols? And if it had, would its new rulers have converted to Zoroastrianism, or at least been more tolerant of it than of Islam (which was suppressed with fanatical zeal by the Buddhist Il-khans)?
Alternatively, we make Persia a real mix of religions, with Sunnis, Shias, Buddhists, Nestorians, Zoroastrians, everyone who at some point had influence in that area. We then ensure that there are enough revolter states that any of these religions could theoretically become the dominant one in Persia.
The Ilkhanate probably will fall apart under AI control, but we shouldn't force it - Aberration is all about possibilities, not following a single storyline. The current situation regarding Ukraine and the Golden Horde, where the Horde is usually crushed but sometimes survives and gets events, is a good model IMO.
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hmmm I see your point, a Buddhist ill khante might be intresting, have u seen my former Savavdi events? some two pages ago, we can alter those to represent the war.
Calipah said:
I don't know which events you're referring to, but yes: Caliphs, Safavids, Il-Khans, Zoroastrians, everyone can have a go. Chaos will reign in Persia, at least for a while
One area we haven't discussed much is the area east of Persia, but west of the Indus, ie Baluchistan, Afghanistan and a few Hindi/Gujurati-cultured provinces. Apart from the Hindi/Gujurati ones, these provinces are very poor, but are a likely battleground between India and whoever's in charge in Persia. What province religions, revolters etc should we have out there? These areas have also historically tended to be controlled rather tenuously by centralised governments, if at all. Could we even have them inhabited by natives to indicate this (maybe with colonies on top, like southern India at the moment)?
Incompetent said:I don't know which events you're referring to, but yes: Caliphs, Safavids, Il-Khans, Zoroastrians, everyone can have a go. Chaos will reign in Persia, at least for a while
One area we haven't discussed much is the area east of Persia, but west of the Indus, ie Baluchistan, Afghanistan and a few Hindi/Gujurati-cultured provinces. Apart from the Hindi/Gujurati ones, these provinces are very poor, but are a likely battleground between India and whoever's in charge in Persia. What province religions, revolters etc should we have out there? These areas have also historically tended to be controlled rather tenuously by centralised governments, if at all. Could we even have them inhabited by natives to indicate this (maybe with colonies on top, like southern India at the moment)?
Well I would not see them controlled by the western Indian states. At games start, the Indian states are finally back on their feet after some traumatic event that forced them into this city state type set-up. No power would be strong enough to really control that area, and more then likely they would be more concerned with the other rising powers next to them then worrying about that area.
Hmm, it looks like this thread has drifted a bit from its original intention o Persia needs its own thread, but that should be created by someone in charge of modding it.
yourworstnightm, do want to make Persia (+ Uzbeks and some provinces to the east of Persia) your baby? I can't really volunteer as I'll probably be busy enough with the stuff I've promised to do already.
o Persia needs its own thread, but that should be created by someone in charge of modding it.yourworstnightm, do want to make Persia (+ Uzbeks and some provinces to the east of Persia) your baby? I can't really volunteer as I'll probably be busy enough with the stuff I've promised to do already.
Don't really have any knowledge about coding and evnt scripting, but I have some ideas about Persia and Central Asia that could be used.
yourworstnightm said:
As long as you can tell a good story with lots of difficult choices for the player, other people can sort out the details. I've put you down provisionally for Persia + Uzbeks, but if you only want to do some of it and other people want to help out, I'll put their names there as well or instead.
well I was talking about the Savavid-Caliphate events some pages ago, where a guy marches to Samarkand, and brings Persia under the Caliphate.After a few years he marries a savavdi woman, converts to Shiitism, and revolts against the Caliphate.We can modify them.