Kings, Emperors, and Statesmen: A Saga 1066-1920

[Sid Meier]

no problemo tovarish.

 

[Varyar]

Alright, you have me convinced germax. If both you and Sid feel that there's life left in the game, who am I to disagree? I'll stay Oh, and I support you playing Venice.

Lurken, I guess that there's no big reason to continue 'our' discussion, but I like the insights you provide from the other side of the in-game conflict. So I will respond to your latest post, but if you wish to drop it all that's fine with me.

Okey, Poland is big. But it will not stay big. When Norway get properly ordered, that is, nabbing Sweden, Denmark and part of Finland. Hungery is released, as promised. And Byzan lifts of the ground. Poland will hit a bad heir, and then it is free for all.

I guess my worry is what will happen in the meantime.

And what would have Poland have done after the victory? Given Kiev and Pronsk a slap on the wrist for a botched rebellion?

Victory is victory, since Poland won I could at best bring forth wishes. What I wanted and believed in, of course, was a polish defeat.

Stronger, how? They had already expanded enough, and believe, big realms isn't stable, it is enough that one vassal get rebellious trait, and then he gets realm duress and then it is really bad. Patiance, once more.

Stronger as in getting time to regain lost manpower, stock up on money, get a better grip of the realm etc.

Honour is good. But what feeds your family? Good intentions and honour? No. Kissing ass to the boss. They failed to appreciate the strenght of Poland with Hungery. They made a bad choice.

The good thing about playing a game is that it's not for real, your family won't starve as a result of your choice. They would've taken a chance either way(Sterk had apparently already broken promises). And I wouldn't say they failed to appreciate the strength of Poland, the strength of both sides were very even.

No reason to DoW Poland? I beg to differ, the whole shebang was about Poland. Not about Germany.

The thing is, the minute Germany chose to support Poland there was no separating of the two. How could I attack Poland? Had I shipped troops to Pomerania, Germany would hardly have sat idly by. No, I would've had german troops attacking my rear. Germany had to be taken out first. Sure, I could've wasted some 350 prestige, claimed a polish county and then declared war, but to what use? The result would've been the same.

"Rightful titles"? If you wanted to have Sid as the king of Rus, then why didn't you press to have that title edited to him at the start? The same for germax. There are no thing as designated titles. If you get it, fine. If you don't get it, then you are still around and able to do stuff.

Because I expected both of them to gain those titles as the game progressed. See, they couldn't be Rus and Bolgar because those kingdoms didn't exist in the scenario. However, it was clear from the start that this game was a game for kings, not dukes. Choices were made based on what would be fun to play not only in CK, but in EUII(III?) and Vicky and HoI too. I regard this as strictly a "fair play" issue, to let every player take off before defeating them.

But fine, it was my mistake apparently, for not foreseeing a situation like this. I'll remember next time to press for the assignment of king-titles to all.

Why would I pay with money I earn in the future, if I don't have to. Before you say anything, remember that I never agreed on paying them anything. If they wanted something, they would have taken something that I could give, ergo Mecklenburg. Sure I complained a bit, but it was in the full right and power of Leon to take it, they didn't.

What diplomacy was there to be made? I would never agree to any term that was bad for me. Never. I RP, Adolf would have never given in. Picture yourself into my position, not only that I have been beaten, but my vassals are revolting as well, people tend to get a bit steamed up. Fine that I was a bit unreasonable. But I said clearly many times to send the peace offer, yet you failed. Sid said also, "send the peace offer", yet you failed.

See, that's what I mean. When you say "I didn't have to" you refer to the limited set of game mechanics used to make peace. Why must we limit ourselves to those mechanics? Why should we be unable to demand reparations from eachother based on future earnings? That's a situation where a little human-to-human negotiation could've expanded the peace options as well as adding some nice roleplaying.

About me being unreasonable, one part of Englands demands was that I would rescind any liegeship over Netherlands for all future. A thing, impossible to do, by game-engine, unless editing. That demand is as if I would have demanded that Land's end would be no longer considered english, but german.
Just plain silly.

Fine, call it that you should've recognized the king of England as the rightful lord of Friesland then. Regardless, what it was ment to be was a promise from one player to another, nothing more. Role-playing.

Why would I use the friendship with the poles like that? To have them slaughtered on the fields for Germanys gains? I am aware of "balance", therefore I will not take it back any time I please.

You won't have to use anything, help will be offered as a gift, as between all friends, should you fail to retake your lost lands on your own.

It is impressive how people can get steamed up, for a war they did not lose anything. Sure Poland is big, but England is unhurt.

People? I lost everything in the war, because all that mattered was Kiev and Rus. Like I've said, for me it has mainly been a moral issue from the start. Besides, England may have passed unhurt(not quite) this time, but such a Poland is a constant threat.

 

[Lurken]

Lurken, I guess that there's no big reason to continue 'our' discussion, but I like the insights you provide from the other side of the in-game conflict. So I will respond to your latest post, but if you wish to drop it all that's fine with me.

I like this "exchange" of ideas and subjective realities. It is always an eye opener, somehow.

Stronger as in getting time to regain lost manpower, stock up on money, get a better grip of the realm etc.

Good point there, can't refute that in any way.

The good thing about playing a game is that it's not for real, your family won't starve as a result of your choice. They would've taken a chance either way(Sterk had apparently already broken promises). And I wouldn't say they failed to appreciate the strength of Poland, the strength of both sides were very even.

Then the failure was, like Sun Tzu would have said. Deception is everything. If you'll all would have suddenly declered what you want, and imidatly declered war, you would have surely have won that war. Giving ulitimatums only lets the challanged to prepare for battle.

The thing is, the minute Germany chose to support Poland there was no separating of the two. How could I attack Poland? Had I shipped troops to Pomerania, Germany would hardly have sat idly by. No, I would've had german troops attacking my rear. Germany had to be taken out first. Sure, I could've wasted some 350 prestige, claimed a polish county and then declared war, but to what use? The result would've been the same.

True true, but the result wouldn't have been the same way I guess. Since if Poland was in a war versus you, they would have helped me in someway to lift the sieges that you were holding. It would have played out different. AND, it was one thing that might have sealed the fate of the russians. Since without the second front in the west, Poland could focus on the east. If they would be required to hold of invasions from the west as well, then it would have tied up some of Polands armies, right?

Because I expected both of them to gain those titles as the game progressed. See, they couldn't be Rus and Bolgar because those kingdoms didn't exist in the scenario. However, it was clear from the start that this game was a game for kings, not dukes. Choices were made based on what would be fun to play not only in CK, but in EUII(III?) and Vicky and HoI too. I regard this as strictly a "fair play" issue, to let every player take off before defeating them.

But fine, it was my mistake apparently, for not foreseeing a situation like this. I'll remember next time to press for the assignment of king-titles to all.

I understand your point, but this is afterall a game, where you want power. And in the view of me and perhaps Sterkarm is that, power is to be held. If Kiev would have exhausted themselves, they would have been pushover by Poland for an example.

See, that's what I mean. When you say "I didn't have to" you refer to the limited set of game mechanics used to make peace. Why must we limit ourselves to those mechanics? Why should we be unable to demand reparations from eachother based on future earnings? That's a situation where a little human-to-human negotiation could've expanded the peace options as well as adding some nice roleplaying.

Yes, I could very well role-play some negoatiation now. I was a little to steamed up right then to focus. If Leon wants to negotiate, he is welcome to try.

Fine, call it that you should've recognized the king of England as the rightful lord of Friesland then. Regardless, what it was ment to be was a promise from one player to another, nothing more. Role-playing.

I considered it briefly and rejected it, since Adolf only wants one, a united Germany, and Friesland is kinda considerd Germany. As for game-mechanics, it could be handled by you recieving the dukedom of Friesland, but since it was not in the position of that title, it was an impossiblity anyways.

You won't have to use anything, help will be offered as a gift, as between all friends, should you fail to retake your lost lands on your own.

Good point there.

 

[unmerged(55974)]

If no one has a problem with it i would like to play Italy. With me missing alot of sessions lately and the one I did make we didnt get anywhere I have over that span of time completely lost interest in Norway. I will continue to play them if everyone wishes and try to regain that interest for Norway.

If no one minds though I would love to be Italy.

 

[Kujy]

I have no problem with it, Richard. But with the 3 of you bunched up in Italy, I can't help but think one of yous will eventually start eyeing Iberia.

 

[Lurken]

We would sooner need a player in the north. So If you want to move south, I would like to see that germax moved north.

 

[Kujy]

germax seems intent on playing Venice, so either we let Richard play as Italy or he stays put in Norway. I don't care either way.

 

[Lurken]

germax seems intent on playing Venice, so either we let Richard play as Italy or he stays put in Norway. I don't care either way.

Me neither. As long as we have the "spot" filled in the north. Another way would be to get a new player to fill the north.

 

[Jens Z]

I think a player in the north is very important for game balance and as long as we do not have an alt I hope Richard continues to play Norway.


Let me add some of my thoughts about the recent war:

Then the failure was, like Sun Tzu would have said. Deception is everything. If you'll all would have suddenly declered what you want, and imidatly declered war, you would have surely have won that war. Giving ulitimatums only lets the challanged to prepare for battle.

This would have been a most dishonorable behaviour which English, Spanish and Frankish nobles not even think about

True true, but the result wouldn't have been the same way I guess. Since if Poland was in a war versus you, they would have helped me in someway to lift the sieges that you were holding. It would have played out different. AND, it was one thing that might have sealed the fate of the russians. Since without the second front in the west, Poland could focus on the east. If they would be required to hold of invasions from the west as well, then it would have tied up some of Polands armies, right?

The intention was a blitz victory against Germany and then continue to march eastwards. Without securing the Westfront there was no necessity to DOW Poland. It was a gamble and war luck wasnt with us. Simple as that.

Yes, I could very well role-play some negoatiation now. I was a little to steamed up right then to focus. If Leon wants to negotiate, he is welcome to try.

I considered it briefly and rejected it, since Adolf only wants one, a united Germany, and Friesland is kinda considerd Germany. As for game-mechanics, it could be handled by you recieving the dukedom of Friesland, but since it was not in the position of that title, it was an impossiblity anyways.

I dislike rushing ingame over important peace negotiations like that in a few minutes, the more as the situation for the alliance had changed and internal talkings between us were necessary. That's why I suggested to end session (which already was near of the agreed end) and discuss all matters in the forum properly. I consider this as funny as the game itself and besides, a bit RP is never bad helping to revive the diplo thread.



Btw, in order to avoid similar situations I suggest a houserule: A Player kingdom cannot vassalize another player kingdom ingame and force him to become a duke. However, a Player kingdom can vassalize another player kingdom via roleplaying.

 

[Varyar]

Then the failure was, like Sun Tzu would have said. Deception is everything. If you'll all would have suddenly declered what you want, and imidatly declered war, you would have surely have won that war. Giving ulitimatums only lets the challanged to prepare for battle.

I'm not so sure. Germany and Poland wasn't given much time to prepare anyway. Besides, I did nourish a hope that the ultimatum would lead to a diplomatic resolution, ending the need for a war altogether.

True true, but the result wouldn't have been the same way I guess. Since if Poland was in a war versus you, they would have helped me in someway to lift the sieges that you were holding. It would have played out different. AND, it was one thing that might have sealed the fate of the russians. Since without the second front in the west, Poland could focus on the east. If they would be required to hold of invasions from the west as well, then it would have tied up some of Polands armies, right?

Yes, but originally that wasn't needed since Norway and Byzantium would've filled those roles. But as Byzantium wasn't part of the war, and Norway became AI-led and subsequently WP:ed, that part of the plan failed and we didn't adjust. Also, don't forget a scenario where you state to Poland that you can handle the western invasion, and that Poland focuses on the east. Such a scenario would've played out roughly like this war of ours.

I understand your point, but this is afterall a game, where you want power. And in the view of me and perhaps Sterkarm is that, power is to be held. If Kiev would have exhausted themselves, they would have been pushover by Poland for an example.

True, but it is a matter of how you acquire it. Had Poland crushed both Kiev and Pronsk by force and gained the two king-titles that way I would have had little complaint.

I considered it briefly and rejected it, since Adolf only wants one, a united Germany, and Friesland is kinda considerd Germany. As for game-mechanics, it could be handled by you recieving the dukedom of Friesland, but since it was not in the position of that title, it was an impossiblity anyways.

To which I could've replied "Fine, then we keep occupying and looting your realm", or would've brought forth a compromise of some sort, such as you recognizing England as the owner of those provinces, but that England pay homage to the Emperor like any other vassal for those lands. Or something else. That is the sort of discussion I was hoping for.

In spirit of that, I would like to suggest that whenever peace is negotiated between two humans, they are granted 10-20 minutes for peace talks. 10 minutes if just two players are involved, up to 20 if more. I think this aspect of the game is so important that it deserves it, the few times humans go to war against one another.

Btw, in order to avoid similar situations I suggest a houserule: A Player kingdom cannot vassalize another player kingdom ingame and force him to become a duke. However, a Player kingdom can vassalize another player kingdom via roleplaying.

This might sound ambiguous, but I am not against human players losing their king-titles as such. If France were to defeat England in a future war, and somehow had managed to gain a claim to the english throne, I don't see it as wrong for that player to take it. Nor to force vassalage on him.

What upset me about this particular case was that the king-titles weren't taken "fair & square"(such as through war) but that they were snatched from the russian players before they had even been created, in an IMHO very dishonest fashion.

Now that everyone is a king, that's not really an issue.

 

[Sid Meier]

I am an Emperor.

 

[Sterkarm]

I am an Emperor.

Of Greece.

 

[Sid Meier]

Shuush.

 

[Jens Z]

In spirit of that, I would like to suggest that whenever peace is negotiated between two humans, they are granted 10-20 minutes for peace talks. 10 minutes if just two players are involved, up to 20 if more. I think this aspect of the game is so important that it deserves it, the few times humans go to war against one another.

I support such a rule.

This might sound ambiguous, but I am not against human players losing their king-titles as such. If France were to defeat England in a future war, and somehow had managed to gain a claim to the english throne, I don't see it as wrong for that player to take it. Nor to force vassalage on him.

What upset me about this particular case was that the king-titles weren't taken "fair & square"(such as through war) but that they were snatched from the russian players before they had even been created, in an IMHO very dishonest fashion.

Now that everyone is a king, that's not really an issue.

Well, destroying or heavily crippling a major country like England or France etc. would have an immense negative impact on any EU2 campaign. That's why I think certain "limits" are necesary. Fortunately, this scenario is not that common.

How were the Russian titles aquired then? I dont remember actually and assumed so far that they were taken by conquest...

Sid, did u upload the latest save file?

 

[Sid Meier]

Just waiting for all the aars to come in but ill upload it.

 

[Sid Meier]

uploaded.

 

[unmerged(31960)]

did you edit venice to be playable?

 

[Sid Meier]

not yet working on it.

 

[Sid Meier]

been busy eating birthday cake.

 

[unmerged(31960)]

whos birthday is it?