[Map] Ibn Battuta's Legacy 2 - An alternative vanilla map WIP

[Koyraboro]

Meh, I'm a European... and I hate Mercator and dislike... but understand the CK3 projection... Especially considering the Sahara and the "Guinea kingdom".

After all if the projection was 100% correct, the Saharan baronies would have to cover a terirory of 2-3 regular european duchies.. and a regular Guinean barony would be a regular European duchy... and with no possibility to add more places to those areas. Now they usually take just one duchy. I don't think it's fair for the denser parts of Africa, I can disagree, but I do understand

Yeah same. Do you think the map is going any further south? Some people said that Southeast Asia would be a good occasion to add the Swahili Coast. I'm not much of a believer but I wanted your opinion on this. Do we also have sources on what happened in the wasteland south of Kanem and Darfur?

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Unlike the Eastern edge, the South is cut straight, not torn apart, so expanding to Swahili states is rather unlikely :/ although a map covering the whole medieval world down to Great Zimbabwe could be fun.

 

[mechl]

Unlike the Eastern edge, the South is cut straight, not torn apart, so expanding to Swahili states is rather unlikely :/ although a map covering the whole medieval world down to Great Zimbabwe could be fun.

Yea I can see the main issue being that like 90% of the way to Zimbabwe would be wasteland given I don't believe we know much about the areas further south.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Yea I can see the main issue being that like 90% of the way to Zimbabwe would be wasteland given I don't believe we know much about the areas further south.

It's not terra nullus all between. There were the Kongo and Great Lakes kingdoms, and the the Swahili city-states. Of course all the characters would have to be based on legends passed down and distorted by multiple generations, but the same issue is also present with some areas already available in game.

 

[Wixelt]

Did PDX even add not completely fictional rulers for 867 South Arabia in-game?

 

[mechl]

It's not terra nullus all between. There were the Kongo and Great Lakes kingdoms, and the the Swahili city-states. Of course all the characters would have to be based on legends passed down and distorted by multiple generations, but the same issue is also present with some areas already available in game.

Kongo didn't exist till almost the 1400's though but yea I'd say the coastline for places like Swahili would be in that 10%. Though you are right about there being made up areas a plenty on CK3's base map so I guess there'd be no issue adding more made up places and characters if that wasn't an issue for the person adding them.

Anyway while going through the files I found this thing that amused me given I think it was @elvain who did Africa for SWMH if I recall.

I don't get why CK3 has as many character and history issues as it does if they were looking at SWMH for ideas.

 

[elvain]

Did PDX even add not completely fictional rulers for 867 South Arabia in-game?

you usually don't know names of tribal leaders of desert tribes.. but you at least know the tribes... and these are placed well, at least to my knowledge.

867 in general is tricky and outside very few areas it's hard to get actual historical characters below the kingdom tier level

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

I can confirm that 867 is very hard for areas that were outside direct Abbasid governance, and even then we usually only know the larger governors!

CK3 used a lot from SWMH in terms of provinces more than characters, from what I've seen, at least in the areas I've been working in.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

Kongo didn't exist till almost the 1400's though

I should be more precise: I didn't mean the Kongo Kingdom encountered by the Portuguese, but states preceding it. Small principalities or petty kingdoms established by the Kongo people already existed in the area by 1200 CE, the people themselves are thought to have developed complex farming societies between 100 to 400 CE. Of course, we don't know names of their leaders at neither start date, maybe except some mythological figures, and mapping the area in not purely fantastical way would require teaming up with archeologists and ethnographers specialized in the region.

 

[elvain]

Yeah same. Do you think the map is going any further south? Some people said that Southeast Asia would be a good occasion to add the Swahili Coast. I'm not much of a believer but I wanted your opinion on this. Do we also have sources on what happened in the wasteland south of Kanem and Darfur?

I'm not moving the map any more southwards. And I don't really want to speculate on what Paradox is planning or not.
As for the other thing:
south of Kanem was a thriving Sao civilization, which is present
What is south of them is beyond my range of interest, to be honest. I can only recall that searching information about Darfur and Wadai before 16th century is really hard (and that's why regions south of this are beyond my area of interest).

It's not terra nullus all between. There were the Kongo and Great Lakes kingdoms, and the the Swahili city-states. Of course all the characters would have to be based on legends passed down and distorted by multiple generations, but the same issue is also present with some areas already available in game.

Yup, the area wasn't empty, but getting information about it is a lot harder, when even the neigbouring areas are very hard to get any information about.
As for legends and oral sources. In large areas of Africa the oral sources are proven to be surprisingly reliable sources. At least in the areas of Mandé traditions, they aren't very distorted and in many areas they provide answers which modern historiography even after critical reviews finds sometimes more precise and trustworthy than some of medieval historical records. And the fact that something was written centuries ago doesn't make it true - it still needs to be critically reviewed... And it is well known fact that pre-literary societies had very good tradition of preserving good historical records..

Kongo didn't exist till almost the 1400's though but yea I'd say the coastline for places like Swahili would be in that 10%. Though you are right about there being made up areas a plenty on CK3's base map so I guess there'd be no issue adding more made up places and characters if that wasn't an issue for the person adding them.

Anyway while going through the files I found this thing that amused me given I think it was @elvain who did Africa for SWMH if I recall.

View attachment 636610
I don't get why CK3 has as many character and history issues as it does if they were looking at SWMH for ideas.

Hehe, it's not as it seems. This and many other IBW/SWMH characters are characters which I originally researched for my first overhaul of the Sahara and Sub-Saharan Africa back when I worked in SWMH team. Then I took this my work and made it part of my own mod Ibn Battuta's Legacy and Ibn Battuta's World (that's the IBW in the code) and later, when CK2 was expanding its Sahara and Sub-Saharan Africa for Holy Fury, I supplied them with sources and the characters which I coded for IBW/SWMH.

I am pretty confident that you may find most of these already in CK2, although not all made it in... and had to wait for CK3

And in other words, and to answer your question - I don't think they were necessarily looking at SWMH for ideas. Just in some areas I used an upgrade of my SWMH research and passed it to them.
And lastly - note that there is a major difference between vanilla CK and SWMH which isn't about accuracy/inaccuracy, but in design, priorities and decision-making. For vanilla other considerations are more than obviously more important than 100% accuracy and I think it's good for whole lot of reasons.

CK3 used a lot from SWMH in terms of provinces more than characters, from what I've seen, at least in the areas I've been working in.

Hehe, I can confirm that apart from the research I did for SWMH myself, I did check SWMH and your work on it even after I left the team and you upgraded a lot of my previous work into better quality... and I did use it as inspiration for research on my map project. And I did share this project with Paradox.

 

[mechl]

I'm not moving the map any more southwards. And I don't really want to speculate on what Paradox is planning or not.
As for the other thing:
south of Kanem was a thriving Sao civilization, which is present
What is south of them is beyond my range of interest, to be honest. I can only recall that searching information about Darfur and Wadai before 16th century is really hard (and that's why regions south of this are beyond my area of interest).


Yup, the area wasn't empty, but getting information about it is a lot harder, when even the neigbouring areas are very hard to get any information about.
As for legends and oral sources. In large areas of Africa the oral sources are proven to be surprisingly reliable sources. At least in the areas of Mandé traditions, they aren't very distorted and in many areas they provide answers which modern historiography even after critical reviews finds sometimes more precise and trustworthy than some of medieval historical records. And the fact that something was written centuries ago doesn't make it true - it still needs to be critically reviewed... And it is well known fact that pre-literary societies had very good tradition of preserving good historical records..


Hehe, it's not as it seems. This and many other IBW/SWMH characters are characters which I originally researched for my first overhaul of the Sahara and Sub-Saharan Africa back when I worked in SWMH team. Then I took this my work and made it part of my own mod Ibn Battuta's Legacy and Ibn Battuta's World (that's the IBW in the code) and later, when CK2 was expanding its Sahara and Sub-Saharan Africa for Holy Fury, I supplied them with sources and the characters which I coded for IBW/SWMH.

I am pretty confident that you may find most of these already in CK2, although not all made it in... and had to wait for CK3

And in other words, and to answer your question - I don't think they were necessarily looking at SWMH for ideas. Just in some areas I used an upgrade of my SWMH research and passed it to them.
And lastly - note that there is a major difference between vanilla CK and SWMH which isn't about accuracy/inaccuracy, but in design, priorities and decision-making. For vanilla other considerations are more than obviously more important than 100% accuracy and I think it's good for whole lot of reasons.

Hehe, I can confirm that apart from the research I did for SWMH myself, I did check SWMH and your work on it even after I left the team and you upgraded a lot of my previous work into better quality... and I did use it as inspiration for research on my map project. And I did share this project with Paradox.

Yea I can see why Paradox did a lot of the things with CK3 and do agree that going for 100% historical accuracy can be detrimental to actual gameplay whether it's making an area have less characters because we don't have 'historical' characters or making a region have too many or too few provinces/baronies. In the end the greatest thing about Paradox games is that they are so moddable so different people can create a mod that does their own vision of the game.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Yeah same. Do you think the map is going any further south? Some people said that Southeast Asia would be a good occasion to add the Swahili Coast. I'm not much of a believer but I wanted your opinion on this. Do we also have sources on what happened in the wasteland south of Kanem and Darfur?

Yea I can see why Paradox did a lot of the things with CK3 and do agree that going for 100% historical accuracy can be detrimental to actual gameplay whether it's making an area have less characters because we don't have 'historical' characters or making a region have too many or too few provinces/baronies. In the end the greatest thing about Paradox games is that they are so moddable so different people can create a mod that does their own vision of the game.

Expect a Wakanda DLC

 

[elvain]

The mod is now being updated...

A complete changelog will be provided later.. here's a preliminary list as I'm on my way to work now...

General changes of the version 0.02 are:
1) added the Savanna terrain type
2) Numerous changes in the region of kingdom of Ghana/Wagadu and Takrur
- many new baronies, 2 new counties in Ghana, 1 in Takrur, added a Berber rulers of the Awgham region - on the border between Ghana and Taghaza corridor.
3) Changes in the Songhay and Gurma region:
- several new baronies and 2 new counties - Meneka in Kawkaw and Tenkudugu in Wagadugu, county of Bura moved under duchy of Kawkaw (from Lower Gurma)

4) Numerous fixes in the Igboland area
- finally working rename of the duchy Igboland to Nri, renamed several counties, fixed misplaced locations of holdings.

these fixes include some of the suggestions posted here

Misc. Nigeria changes

• Benin and Yoruba Kingdoms should definitely be feudal in 1066 start, possibly in 867 for Yoruba, though that is arguable.
• Scrap Tiv county name - replace with Indoma, as before the arrival of Tiv in the 18thC, Indoma were spread across Benue region in small groups, later displaced by Tiv moving into the area. Besides you already have Igala, and they are neighbours.
• County of Igala -> Akpoto or Okpoto, to represent the original inhabitants prior to the arrival of the Igala and Indoma from the fall of Kwararafa. This I can see you disputing, as your MO is stick with 'recognisable' names.
• Nupe - religion-> Orisha (for the time being), as Nupe are culturally linked with Yoruba, and not Hausa (Bori).
• Rename 'Nupe' barony -> Raba, as Raba was the original Nupe capital and is in basically same position as the 'Nupe' barony, up the river from Bida.
• Chukwu county in Igboland -> Arochukwu, at least based on it's location as far as I can tell.
• Benin City needs to be renamed as it was a later invention and looks out of place (as we have discussed together before), given it's not even a city in game! Acceptable options include, Ubinu (or Ibinu), or even Edo.
• In the current version of the mod some of the baronies positions are a bit sketchy, in Igala and Tiv for example the baronies are bugged and if you click in a barony in Igala the highlighted area is in Tiv. Some of the baronies in Igbo west county sit extremely close or on the actual borders of counties which looks off.

I have for now did the renaming, except for areas which I plan to overhaul in future, which is the region of Ibibio, where I want to add some more baronies and counties to make it a separate duchy.
I didn't change the governments (yet) as I plan it with the balancing part of the mod.
I don't think they should be feudal, but I agree they should be more advanced than what the current tribal allows.
I plan some bigger changes in this field in not-so-close future.

A potential change of religion of the Nupe people might come together with the rework of the Benue basin which will come in the next phase.

Religions
[*]I have religions for Edo, Igbo, tweaks for Yoruba using vanilla doctrines/tenets that could be included. I will work on a Jukun one.

These are great ideas, but as I expect more mods to play with religions, I don't plan adding or editing religions in this mod for compatibility reasons.

I'd be pleased if we could work together to make these your changes compatible as an upgrade of this mod.

Culture and kingdom map
WIP culture map with new kingdoms. Igala I have as sitting in either Nri or Kwararafa, case can be made for both, I would decide this on what you think is better for game balance as far as kingdom size goes. Jukun is a decent placeholder culture in the sense that it is far superior to Nupe for everyone, and the Jukun played a significant role as far as we understand, in the Kwararafa kingdom. Akpoto could be replaced with Igala in the west, and Indoma in the east based on your decision. Jukun in Opanda could also be replaced with Afo, but I have to look into their movements closer to the game-timeline, as the Benue/Niger confluence area seems to be a major migration hub given it's strategic location, so unclear whether Afo presence is actually quite recent. It also depends on how micro you want to go with culture. I think for gameplay purposes it might make more sense to leave the area as Jukun, as that would make it easier to also add a central nigerian religion to cover the Kwararafa Kingdom area, breaking up the Bori blob which is a placeholder for this region, as it's not an Hausa area.
[/LIST]


View attachment 631105

Yup, I do plan adding Jukun culture, although the more I research about them, the more I tend to support the later date of their migration into middle/lower Benue region. Still I think they would be the best fitting (in other words best known) culture to serve as umbrella for other minor cultures.
I'm very unfriendly towards creating 2 county micro-cultures, although a 2 county culture in Africa usually covers similar area as 3-5 county culture in Europe.
I was unsure whether Ilthe Ijaw shouldn't be separated from the Edo, and I am still undecided.
Anyway, if I am going to add a small culture, I do need strong backing for it and available name list, suggestions how else it should differ from its neighbours other than names and cultural titles. If they should have distinctively different innovations or something else, they can be added even if they have just 3 provinces, otherwise not. I'm intrigued about adding both Ijaw and Akpoto, but... do we have the things listed above for thr Akpoto?

As for the kingdom changes suggestion, it is mainly in the direction I am planning. Thanks for this.

 

[Koyraboro]

Expect a Wakanda DLC

Well, it would be horribly broken playing with the Black Panther trait...but I'm in

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

I'd rather have a semi-historical Kitara than fully fictional Wakanda

 

[Koyraboro]

Was current Cameroon ruled by states representable on map? Because I find quite weird the inclusion of the Niger Delta but not the Valley of its large tributary, the Benue.

 

[elvain]

Was current Cameroon ruled by states representable on map? Because I find quite weird the inclusion of the Niger Delta but not the Valley of its large tributary, the Benue.

I'm pretty positive that the Benue river and its basin is present in the game.

I can see it there, running through the Kwararafa county and then being the border bewteen Idoma and Keffi... Akpoto and Opanda...before it ends in Niger, although we have to admit it isn't very visible due to province borders.

The discussion I had with Black7Emperor7 about addig the Jukun was exactly about what do we know about the medieval history of the Benue basin and what can be added to it, since it is present in the game.

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Tbf I find/found the Benue River very hard to spot with the naked eye on the vanilla map. It is present like @elvain said, but maybe if it was made navigable it would be more obvious to the player?

Unfortunately I've yet to find any sources discussing naval or military use of it, tho its obviously possible... considering how involved the Jukun were later with slave/raiding.

 

[Black7Emperor7]

A. I have for now did the renaming, except for areas which I plan to overhaul in future, which is the region of Ibibio, where I want to add some more baronies and counties to make it a separate duchy.

B. I didn't change the governments (yet) as I plan it with the balancing part of the mod.
I don't think they should be feudal, but I agree they should be more advanced than what the current tribal allows.
I plan some bigger changes in this field in not-so-close future.

C. These are great ideas, but as I expect more mods to play with religions, I don't plan adding or editing religions in this mod for compatibility reasons.

D. I'd be pleased if we could work together to make these your changes compatible as an upgrade of this mod.

E. Yup, I do plan adding Jukun culture, although the more I research about them, the more I tend to support the later date of their migration into middle/lower Benue region. Still I think they would be the best fitting (in other words best known) culture to serve as umbrella for other minor cultures.

F. I'm very unfriendly towards creating 2 county micro-cultures, although a 2 county culture in Africa usually covers similar area as 3-5 county culture in Europe.

G. I was unsure whether Ilthe Ijaw shouldn't be separated from the Edo, and I am still undecided.

H. Anyway, if I am going to add a small culture, I do need strong backing for it and available name list, suggestions how else it should differ from its neighbours other than names and cultural titles. If they should have distinctively different innovations or something else, they can be added even if they have just 3 provinces, otherwise not. I'm intrigued about adding both Ijaw and Akpoto, but... do we have the things listed above for thr Akpoto?

I. As for the kingdom changes suggestion, it is mainly in the direction I am planning. Thanks for this.

A. Sounds good, might also consider renaming Bonny to Ibani, the precursor to Bonny, though knowing pdx and your naming convention preferences Ibani is probably already in as a barony of Bonny county. Which name did you go for with Benin City barony? I think Ubinu is best as I believe the alternative spelling actually derives from Yorubas not Bini.

B. Not sure what you have planned here but sounds interesting! I agree 'feudalism' doesn't accurately convey the lower niger area but neither does tribal. I really hope PDX makes change to govt. types in future, as tribals not being able to build any kind of holdings kind of sucks, and locks all civs labelled as 'tribal' into a very small box.

C. Yeah i figured as much based on our previous conversations.

D. 100%. Fully intend to integrate anything I do with this mod.

E. They're definitely the best fitting by a large margin, as they are, from what I can tell, more of an umbrella anyway, a melting pot culture. That said, the timeline is not 100% but i've read sources pushing them closer to 13thC than 18th, especially for the kingdom itself.

F. Yeah we have discussed this before, ultimately cultures are not fleshed out enough in game as is (within a county) to make this worthwhile.

G. They should in the sense that they are not themselves Edo, though in-game from memory their territory is basically one county at the moment?

H. For the Ijaw you do easily, for the Akpoto? Not a chance. I think the best solution is a county name to reflect their presence, but a named culture is not possible.

I. Great! What did you end up doing with Borgu? As mentioned previously I believe some eastern parts of it could be added to Yorubaland, as (though this can be hard to tell sometimes due to map scaling), I believe one or two of the eastern counties were de jure Oyo Kingdom.

EDIT: Also, not sure if this is just something i've broken in my game or something, but the dyansties in the lower niger need HEAPS of work. I swear it was better in earlier patches, so maybe i've broken the dynasties somehow, but we have full king lists for Benin kingdom royal houses, as well as the preceding line of kings, none of whom are present in vanilla. With dynasty names like 'Benin Marshes'. I haven't really ventured into this aspect of modding much yet, but definitely on my list to do at a later date if no one else looks at it, but the lineages of the royal families in Benin and Yorubaland need work considering how many names we have to use based on sources.

Keep the good work!

 

[elvain]

I updated the screenshot gallery in the post no.2 of this thread

Tbf I find/found the Benue River very hard to spot with the naked eye on the vanilla map. It is present like @elvain said, but maybe if it was made navigable it would be more obvious to the player?

Unfortunately I've yet to find any sources discussing naval or military use of it, tho its obviously possible... considering how involved the Jukun were later with slave/raiding.

Yes, if it is made navigable, it would certainly be more visible. The thing is that I'm not very eager to make it navigable if
1) there aren't any cultures to effectively use it. Note that unless I'm wrong, the Bussa rapids should not allow direct riverine connection (without landidn) between Middle and Lower Niger and hence even the riverine cultures - the Bozo and the Sorko - don't have access to this river system without expansion.
But if I'd be adding the Ijaw culture (which I would like to in the near future), they might have the West African canoe technology/innovation.

I have the research of the use of rivers in West Africa on my to-do list... I relatively recently finally acquired a book, which has a chapter about it


but there's simply too much reading about many other things ahead of me, so I can't say when I get to it

A. Sounds good, might also consider renaming Bonny to Ibani, the precursor to Bonny, though knowing pdx and your naming convention preferences Ibani is probably already in as a barony of Bonny county. Which name did you go for with Benin City barony? I think Ubinu is best as I believe the alternative spelling actually derives from Yorubas not Bini.

It's Ubinu, as I have shown in recently updated screenshot gallery:

I will check renaming Bonny, Ibani seems good.

B. Not sure what you have planned here but sounds interesting! I agree 'feudalism' doesn't accurately convey the lower niger area but neither does tribal. I really hope PDX makes change to govt. types in future, as tribals not being able to build any kind of holdings kind of sucks, and locks all civs labelled as 'tribal' into a very small box.

Yes, I hope Paradox will do something with governments.. it deffinitely is necessary. I really dislike how almost entire Sub-Saharan area is locked into tribal system, especially when this system is designed to block/slow down development.

D. 100%. Fully intend to integrate anything I do with this mod.

Great! Looking forward seeing it.

G. They should in the sense that they are not themselves Edo, though in-game from memory their territory is basically one county at the moment?

H. For the Ijaw you do easily, for the Akpoto? Not a chance. I think the best solution is a county name to reflect their presence, but a named culture is not possible.

I thought I would give the Ijo/Ijaw the 2 counties in the Delta. Then, as I plan dividing the Ibibio province, the south-western part of it would be added, so that Ijo/Ijaw would have at least 3 counties.... and although I would be the first to opose a 3 county culture in Europe, considering that the area in question in as large as Catalonia, it won't mind that much

As for the Akpoto - that what I feared. The question is which culture should be there? After a very brief search it seems that they were closer to the Nupe than to Igbo, right?

I. Great! What did you end up doing with Borgu? As mentioned previously I believe some eastern parts of it could be added to Yorubaland, as (though this can be hard to tell sometimes due to map scaling), I believe one or two of the eastern counties were de jure Oyo Kingdom.

There is a very high chance that Yoruba kingdom will be expanded - the plan is to add counties of Savalu, Todo and Shabe as a separate duchy.
But the whole area is quite challenging and not easy to solve and to be honest, I don't really know how to solve it right now. I will try to do some additional research and see what can be done.

EDIT: Also, not sure if this is just something i've broken in my game or something, but the dyansties in the lower niger need HEAPS of work. I swear it was better in earlier patches, so maybe i've broken the dynasties somehow, but we have full king lists for Benin kingdom royal houses, as well as the preceding line of kings, none of whom are present in vanilla. With dynasty names like 'Benin Marshes'. I haven't really ventured into this aspect of modding much yet, but definitely on my list to do at a later date if no one else looks at it, but the lineages of the royal families in Benin and Yorubaland need work considering how many names we have to use based on sources.

I don't know what you did yourself or what is the problem.
If you do your modding as override of the vanilla, there is small possibility that if there are no more dynasties available from the list, the dynasties are named after baronies.... and one of the baronies is called Benin marshes, so even that name is potentially possible. But I can't really say what's the problem without seing what you did with your modding.
This mod doesn't have Benin marshes anymore so you shouldn't be able to see such dynasty.