[Map] Ibn Battuta's Legacy 2 - An alternative vanilla map WIP

[Cèsar de Quart]

Now I know how long it takes to drive from Port Harcourt to Calabar via highway.

 

[Black7Emperor7]

It's ahistorical, but the 'western Igbo' now refer to themselves as 'Anioma,' so a potential replacement for c_west_igbo. The latter is obviously even more ahistorical (well to the extent its a geographic description more than anything used by the people who live there), so if I had to choose one I think Anioma is better at least is a reference to the collective Igbo of that region, even if it is a 20thC identity.

Unfortunately in CK3 a more granular conception of a 'county' is not possible, so often these type of designations come in and are necessary as 'better than what we have' type arrangements- it's the same with culture names, Nupe and Jukun are both heterogenous identities used in the present with historical roots that suggest something of a multicultural melting pot. Nupe is in the game as a culture, though 'Nupe' did not exist prior to the 15th century as an identity or kingdom (rather it was a collection of small sub-cultures). Jukun is however not in the game as a culture, despite possibly predating Nupe kingdom (i'm researching the Nupe at the moment to update my cultural title list). Anyway, just random thoughts lol.

 

[Koyraboro]

Are you going to work on Tunisia and Egypt?

 

[klopkr]

So I was looking at the ck3 map and I started thinking about the Wadai-Darfur region. It seems that this corridors shape is pretty similar between ck2 ck3 and eu4. What exactly informs this shape? I figured this was the best place to ask and maybe see if you've done anything differently.

Is it a lack of data on the people south of there?

 

[elvain]

Thanks guys, for staying tuned.
Sorry for not being very responsive... after some 3-4 years of spending almost all my non-social free time on digging in history of Islamic world and Africa (and Bohemia), I took some hiatus, also because the US events made me quite busy in my primary job... and I needed to spend my remaining time with something else than looking into monitor/s and/or books.

In general, I don't plan to overhaul any parts which aren't my primary interest any time soon. I have collected some information about the Jukun and this area is still planned for overhaul, but I don't plan releasing anything before december.

It's ahistorical, but the 'western Igbo' now refer to themselves as 'Anioma,' so a potential replacement for c_west_igbo. The latter is obviously even more ahistorical (well to the extent its a geographic description more than anything used by the people who live there), so if I had to choose one I think Anioma is better at least is a reference to the collective Igbo of that region, even if it is a 20thC identity.

Unfortunately in CK3 a more granular conception of a 'county' is not possible, so often these type of designations come in and are necessary as 'better than what we have' type arrangements- it's the same with culture names, Nupe and Jukun are both heterogenous identities used in the present with historical roots that suggest something of a multicultural melting pot. Nupe is in the game as a culture, though 'Nupe' did not exist prior to the 15th century as an identity or kingdom (rather it was a collection of small sub-cultures). Jukun is however not in the game as a culture, despite possibly predating Nupe kingdom (i'm researching the Nupe at the moment to update my cultural title list). Anyway, just random thoughts lol.

Thanks, I will keep this in my notes and as I have done some research on this area, it will indeed be among the first releases.
I agree that Anioma is potentially a better name than West-Igbo.

And as I said, Jukun are planned to be included. If you could help by finding or creating a name list, it would be extremely helpfull - namelists are among the most annoying things about cultures from my perspective.

Are you going to work on Tunisia and Egypt?

Do you have any necessary changes there in mind? I am pretty satisfied with the way they are now, so they certainly aren't on my priority list now. As far as I checked my sources on Ifriqiya, I don't think I can go into deeper detail than the map is now, apart from very few baronies.

As for Egypt - it could have some more baronies being added to those provinces, but I'm affraid it would make them too small. Egypt already is one of the densest areas on the map when it comes to baronies... and even if baronies could have been added I certainly don't want to add more counties there.

So I was looking at the ck3 map and I started thinking about the Wadai-Darfur region. It seems that this corridors shape is pretty similar between ck2 ck3 and eu4. What exactly informs this shape? I figured this was the best place to ask and maybe see if you've done anything differently.

Is it a lack of data on the people south of there?

The first historical accounts about the people of the area come from the 16th century. There are some archaeological data about those areas, but since those areas are in the state of turmoil and armed conflict for the last 50 or so years, there even aren't any recent archaeological studies, like even in tha case of Western Sahel.

That said - yes, there is very little data to base it on.
Searching for historical data relevant to CK period in Darfur was one of the most desperate works I have done in the last few years. It was actually easier to find data about the Guinean jungle than about medieval Darfur.

 

[klopkr]

The first historical accounts about the people of the area come from the 16th century. There are some archaeological data about those areas, but since those areas are in the state of turmoil and armed conflict for the last 50 or so years, there even aren't any recent archaeological studies, like even in tha case of Western Sahel.

That said - yes, there is very little data to base it on.
Searching for historical data relevant to CK period in Darfur was one of the most desperate works I have done in the last few years. It was actually easier to find data about the Guinean jungle than about medieval Darfur.

Thanks so much for the answer! So I take it the existing corridor was designed with the idea of 'We know there's a corridor around here connecting people in these two parts of africa' and they then we scrounged all the info possible to make as historical of a corridor as possible? It's really too bad because it's my feeling that the people in the real region wouldn't have felt limited in living or fighting or moving around just south of the corridor and I think I'd love to see that area have playable and accessible provinces. It's too bad that we just really don't have a clear or easy source to just fill it all up. One of the greatest reasons I love and studied african history is because of how cutting edge and open the field still is, unfortunately largely due to racism and lack of access, plus the historical lack of tools to work with history outside of written sources.

It sounds like you've already bashed your head against the text books for this region but I'll always be looking excitedly for any new changes or info there. I really really hope for lasting peace and stability in south sudan, and africa in general. Primarily for the people of course but also in this case for all the new information we might be able to access and learn in the area. I've always been enamoured by the fact that great cultures and empires rose and fell in africa that we still don't even know about, whereas european and asian history has been mostly known and static for a longer while and require us to reach much deeper to find the big unknowns!

I'm going to try and look more into it myself. I really hope to see new info arising in african history through the use of ground penetrating radar to help with archeology. It seems to have already been a huge revolution in the anthropology in the americas so maybe we'll be finding the lost settlements of these vast lands in the next few decades.

Keep up the great work on your mod! I already love the ck3 map and it's so full I've been struggling to imagine improvements. Seeing what you've been doing is really helping me see all the little things that can still be done!

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Re Jukun they actually sort of set up in the game history files with # notes (tho set all as nupe). So finding the characters to switch to jukun culture was very easy. I have a name list (tho could def add more), a list of names to be used for dynasties, mercenary name list, and a religion- Bashoism. All set up in my game already.

One thing I wanted to ask is if anyone has any info re Kanuri or Kanembu religion? I.e. pre islamic Kanem Bornu religion.The Bori blob must go!

Bori of course refers to a specific rite or practice of traditional Hausa spirituality, not the belief system itself. It also shouldn't cover the entirety of central Africa as it does now and esp not Kanem which was a more sophisticated and unified polity than Hausaland. The problem im having is there's no info on traditional religion in central Africa covered by Sao and Kanem in game at present.

 

[mechl]

As for Egypt - it could have some more baronies being added to those provinces, but I'm affraid it would make them too small. Egypt already is one of the densest areas on the map when it comes to baronies... and even if baronies could have been added I certainly don't want to add more counties there.

I ran into that same thought when adding provinces. Like it's easy to just add a ton of baronies to each county but for gameplay purposes it looks and plays badly if a county is a bunch of tiny baronies that barely can fit all the map objects without you shrinking them into hard to click objects and does ruin some of the strategic play.

 

[elvain]

Thanks so much for the answer! So I take it the existing corridor was designed with the idea of 'We know there's a corridor around here connecting people in these two parts of africa' and they then we scrounged all the info possible to make as historical of a corridor as possible? It's really too bad because it's my feeling that the people in the real region wouldn't have felt limited in living or fighting or moving around just south of the corridor and I think I'd love to see that area have playable and accessible provinces. It's too bad that we just really don't have a clear or easy source to just fill it all up. One of the greatest reasons I love and studied african history is because of how cutting edge and open the field still is, unfortunately largely due to racism and lack of access, plus the historical lack of tools to work with history outside of written sources.

It sounds like you've already bashed your head against the text books for this region but I'll always be looking excitedly for any new changes or info there. I really really hope for lasting peace and stability in south sudan, and africa in general. Primarily for the people of course but also in this case for all the new information we might be able to access and learn in the area. I've always been enamoured by the fact that great cultures and empires rose and fell in africa that we still don't even know about, whereas european and asian history has been mostly known and static for a longer while and require us to reach much deeper to find the big unknowns!

I'm going to try and look more into it myself. I really hope to see new info arising in african history through the use of ground penetrating radar to help with archeology. It seems to have already been a huge revolution in the anthropology in the americas so maybe we'll be finding the lost settlements of these vast lands in the next few decades.

Keep up the great work on your mod! I already love the ck3 map and it's so full I've been struggling to imagine improvements. Seeing what you've been doing is really helping me see all the little things that can still be done!

There is no doubt that the corridor was used - there are numerous traces of communication/ trade between Lake Chad area and Ethiopia/Somalia/Arabia region and it is highly unlikely it would all go through Egypt.

the region of Darfur also had contacts with the areas along the White Nile and beyond - the area currently covered by the Damot kingdom and Welayta culture (in reality that is clearly an umbrella for several minor cultures about whom we know very little.

When we're at lack of information, I don't like blaming racism, although this modern term would describe the behaviour.. but back then both the Arabs and Europeans as well as the Sub-Saharans considered the latter group inferior... and they frankly were because before the 15th century Sub-Saharan Africa only had contacts with Islamic civilization - the most advanced civilization of the West.
And although in 11th century and earlier the non-Mediterrean Europe was behind the civilizations of the Sahel, by the 15th century when first direct contacts were made, the Sahel has declined while Europe steadily developed.

It wasn't racism, but objective facts (and human nature) what made the people consider 'the blacks' inferior in terms of level of civilization. Our attempts to give Africa justice amd find its rightfull place in the history of human civilizations should not twist into attempts (made by many) to make Africa greater than it actually was. And calling everyone who's unaware of it a racist doesn't help either!

We still don't know enough, but current historiography already is learning how to deal with the specific sources we have for Africa, and for which we have to rely on due to the lack of written sources.

the metodology of wotk with oral histories has vastly improved in the last 50 years, archaeology is helping us a lot... but none of these, sadly, can give us information about the non-material culture of the people who are no longer present or who have assimilated or transformed into different cultures.

It is extremely exciting to work on unveiling this all.
Darfur and its history, however, is one of the places where reconstruction the history is hard not just due to the complications with sources, but also recent political and security situation. We need to be humble and patient... and accept that we csn't have everything.
And keep hoping that things will get better, despite the odds.

Re Jukun they actually sort of set up in the game history files with # notes (tho set all as nupe). So finding the characters to switch to jukun culture was very easy. I have a name list (tho could def add more), a list of names to be used for dynasties, mercenary name list, and a religion- Bashoism. All set up in my game already.

One thing I wanted to ask is if anyone has any info re Kanuri or Kanembu religion? I.e. pre islamic Kanem Bornu religion.The Bori blob must go!

Bori of course refers to a specific rite or practice of traditional Hausa spirituality, not the belief system itself. It also shouldn't cover the entirety of central Africa as it does now and esp not Kanem which was a more sophisticated and unified polity than Hausaland. The problem im having is there's no info on traditional religion in central Africa covered by Sao and Kanem in game at present.

As you know, religions aren't the area of concern of this mod, so I won't add a religion neither for the Jukun, nor the Kanumbe/Kanuri people, although I agree with you that they do deserve one and just like you, I'd like to break the large Bori blob.

as far asI know, the Duguwa of Kanem kept some remnants of their pre-islamic faith and customs even after they converted. They kept the symbol of kingship until the 13th century when they started relocating to Bornu. IIRC it was described as some sort of totem.
Among the Duguwa nobility were also priests of the old faith, very disliked by islamic preachers and scholars.

But from what I remember from reading, the sources say that there is only this little information and almost nothing about what was the original faith about. And since the rulers were muslims already since 1068, we don't even have many information from muslim travellers and historians.

I ran into that same thought when adding provinces. Like it's easy to just add a ton of baronies to each county but for gameplay purposes it looks and plays badly if a county is a bunch of tiny baronies that barely can fit all the map objects without you shrinking them into hard to click objects and does ruin some of the strategic play.

Yep,
I deffinitely agree that some areas would deserve more baronies from strictly historical-accuracy perspective, but I don't see a point in doing so, if it would make those regions unplayable in terms of orientation.

EDIT: sorry for typos. Writing from my phone

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Yes Elvain I know you're not interested in including religions in your mod, I just ask coz i was hoping either you or a fan of the mod might know something as I can not find much at all. Maybe enough to make a meme religion?

That said I did read a these recently about traditional zaghawa religion which has allowed me to add this to the game. One thing that does confuse me though is the relationship between kanuri and Zaghawa in 9th and 11th centuries. Do you think it would make sense for the kanem bornu bori rulers and and counties to share this religion?

Obviously bori is mostly concerned with hausa. But at present it covers both sao and kanuri rulers and counties. After converting all the zaghawa territory I've broken up large parts of the bori blob but not sure how far to go with this. Theres also parts of darfur that have zaghawa rulers but daju pop. Is this intended? Ditto for zaghawa provinces that have butr rulers or kanuri rulers.

Where you involved in these decisions and if so can you explain these choices to me? I'm tempted to align these provinces religions with the rulers religions (mostly the zaghawa religion), as the lines on the map indicating religion incongruence are an eye sore

Another issue, I feel like Islam did not really penetrate to the provinces as much as is reflected in provinces religion in game. I'm tempted to create a new Muslim faith that is a meld of traditional belief and Islam or a pagan faith with Islam syncretism to reflect this. Interested in your thoughts? Also as to what Islamic school this would be? Ashari is Sunni afaik, should it not be khajirite or Ibadi for most west and central Africa? I'm not as well read on Islamic schools.

Finally zaghawa is in Berber culture group. But afaik they are Black not Berber. Muslim scholars referred to them as Black nomads in their earliest sources afaik, and today they are Black though like many in the region have mixed with Arabs over the years. Thoughts? I assume this choice is perhaps driven by their nomadic lifestyle and perhaps some similarities with Berber ppl in history, but I feel like central African is a more logical choice for them given they are Black Africans and not Berber or Arabs.

Cheers

 

[Koyraboro]

Yes Elvain I know you're not interested in including religions in your mod, I just ask coz i was hoping either you or a fan of the mod might know something as I can not find much at all. Maybe enough to make a meme religion?

That said I did read a these recently about traditional zaghawa religion which has allowed me to add this to the game. One thing that does confuse me though is the relationship between kanuri and Zaghawa in 9th and 11th centuries. Do you think it would make sense for the kanem bornu bori rulers and and counties to share this religion?

Obviously bori is mostly concerned with hausa. But at present it covers both sao and kanuri rulers and counties. After converting all the zaghawa territory I've broken up large parts of the bori blob but not sure how far to go with this. Theres also parts of darfur that have zaghawa rulers but daju pop. Is this intended? Ditto for zaghawa provinces that have butr rulers or kanuri rulers.

Where you involved in these decisions and if so can you explain these choices to me? I'm tempted to align these provinces religions with the rulers religions (mostly the zaghawa religion), as the lines on the map indicating religion incongruence are an eye sore

Another issue, I feel like Islam did not really penetrate to the provinces as much as is reflected in provinces religion in game. I'm tempted to create a new Muslim faith that is a meld of traditional belief and Islam or a pagan faith with Islam syncretism to reflect this. Interested in your thoughts? Also as to what Islamic school this would be? Ashari is Sunni afaik, should it not be khajirite or Ibadi for most west and central Africa? I'm not as well read on Islamic schools.

Finally zaghawa is in Berber culture group. But afaik they are Black not Berber. Muslim scholars referred to them as Black nomads in their earliest sources afaik, and today they are Black though like many in the region have mixed with Arabs over the years. Thoughts? I assume this choice is perhaps driven by their nomadic lifestyle and perhaps some similarities with Berber ppl in history, but I feel like central African is a more logical choice for them given they are Black Africans and not Berber or Arabs.

Cheers

Not a scholar but I had the same idea about creating a new Islamic Faith for the Sahel. Muwalladi exists so why not? The variety of Islam that permeated the region was mainly Sunni Islam so the new Faith would be under this group. It would see African Faiths as Astray and be seen as Astray by them at the cost of being hostile to fellow Sunni who see them as heretical.

 

[elvain]

I'm still pretty busy with other things and one of them is a light version of the mod, because I got slightly carried away by your amazing feedback and went slightly more into the detail than I originally intended. That's generally a good thing, but creates slightly more work to acheive one of the main intents of this mod.

That said I'm little stalled in adding new stuff right now.

Yes Elvain I know you're not interested in including religions in your mod,

Just to make things clear. It's not that I'm not interested. It's rather a compatibility thing.
I know that for many people religions are THE THING they are primarily interested, while for me religions are only about 5th or 6th most interesting thing.
And for that reason, I want to enable prople - like you in particular - to have as free hands/space to play with religions as possible and that's why I intentionally leave religions out of this mod to enable as much compatibility as possible to everyone. Especially as I know that there's still a mountain to climb even in my own map work.

I just ask coz i was hoping either you or a fan of the mod might know something as I can not find much at all. Maybe enough to make a meme religion?

I think that what we know about the Kanem and Zaghawa religious traditions is actually the same or in some aspects even slightly more than what we know about traditions which led to creation of religions such as the Kushite, so I don't see a problem.

It depends what you want. The game itself wants and needs religions which are interesting and fun for people. It doesn't need nor want them 100% accurate. That's the rule of CK3 being a game. Of course when making an accuracy mod, your requirements are slightly higher than that. But still I'm glad it's enough even for you

That said I did read a these recently about traditional zaghawa religion which has allowed me to add this to the game. One thing that does confuse me though is the relationship between kanuri and Zaghawa in 9th and 11th centuries. Do you think it would make sense for the kanem bornu bori rulers and and counties to share this religion?

As much as I know, the Kanuri are a result of mixing of the Zaghawa with the original populations of Kanem and Bornu. In the case of Kanem we don't know who they were, in the case of Bornu those were probably some Sao or Sao-related people.
That said, the religion you have done should IMHO should be okay for both the Zaghawa and the people of Kanem and Bornu. Let's get rid of the Bori blob!

Obviously bori is mostly concerned with hausa. But at present it covers both sao and kanuri rulers and counties. After converting all the zaghawa territory I've broken up large parts of the bori blob but not sure how far to go with this. Theres also parts of darfur that have zaghawa rulers but daju pop. Is this intended? Ditto for zaghawa provinces that have butr rulers or kanuri rulers.

Where you involved in these decisions and if so can you explain these choices to me? I'm tempted to align these provinces religions with the rulers religions (mostly the zaghawa religion), as the lines on the map indicating religion incongruence are an eye sore

The Zaghawa cover much larger territory than they historically did.
Also we know that the northern and north-western Zaghawa territories were inhabited by the Tubu/Toubou people and I have been sort of tempted to add the Tubu as separate culture. But for the sake of simplicity (and for the lack of details I have amassed so far about the Zaghawa on the one hand and the Tubu on the other) I keep them Zaghawa for now.
It also appears clear that the Zaghawa culture is there to fill also other empty spaces, which does make sense for this kind of umbrella culture representing several non-Berber Black people of the Sahara (note that some of the Berbers, in particular the Sanhaja of the Sahara AKA veiled Sanhaja and their descendant the Touaregs have very dark skin, some would even call them black too, although their physiology is different than of the Sahelian people. However, the Tubu look pretty much the same as them and so did most probably also the Zaghawa before their extensive mixing with other predominantly Sahelian peoples).

I can't speak much about their religion, because I haven't researched it a lot. But I think it would make sense to give the Tubu and Zaghawa people of the desert the religion you created for the Zaghawa/Kanuri. After all, the upper class of Kanem were mainly the Zaghawa, or descendants of Zaghawa mixed with the local people.

As for the Zaghawa stretching all the way into the Daju territories - I would account it to the fact that they are obviously the umbrella placeholder culture for the south-eastern Sahara. For the regions of Wadai and actually even Darfur there is little to no information about its inhabitants before the 16th century...
From what we know about the nature of those desert people and them expanding even outside the desert, I don't see an issue with the desert people/Zaghawa being rulers over local populations (the Daju).
Is that an intentional design? I can't say, but it's not in contradiction with the sources I passed to the devs.

Finally zaghawa is in Berber culture group. But afaik they are Black not Berber. Muslim scholars referred to them as Black nomads in their earliest sources afaik, and today they are Black though like many in the region have mixed with Arabs over the years. Thoughts? I assume this choice is perhaps driven by their nomadic lifestyle and perhaps some similarities with Berber ppl in history, but I feel like central African is a more logical choice for them given they are Black Africans and not Berber or Arabs.

Thoughts?
The first thought is that culture groups in CK3 don't always necessarily stick to ethnic/linguistic groupings. And even less so with racial one. They often do, but there are numerous examples that when ethnic/linguistic grouping does not correspond with technologies/lifestyle of the people, the latter is preferred. You can see that in Europe in the Balkans, you can see that in Sahelian culture groups, you can see that in Spain - just from the top of my mind.
Also in CK3 - unlike in CK2 - ethnicity/skin colour is separated from culture.
With this in mind I don't see a reason why the Zaghawa (and the Saharan non-Berber nomads they represent) couldn't be added to the same group with the Butr - the nomadic Berbers.
Especially since, as I mentioned earlier, many Berbers were described by Islamic scholars as Blacks - just check how the Mediterrean scholars described the Almoravids - Veiled people with black skin.

I don't think that a racist approach for which a skin colour is more important than anything else is a good one to look at things in general and even less so in this game. That said, I fully agree that cultural similarities/differences are prioritized over skin colour and hence I fully agree with Zaghawa being in Berber group and not in Central African group.

Another issue, I feel like Islam did not really penetrate to the provinces as much as is reflected in provinces religion in game. I'm tempted to create a new Muslim faith that is a meld of traditional belief and Islam or a pagan faith with Islam syncretism to reflect this. Interested in your thoughts? Also as to what Islamic school this would be? Ashari is Sunni afaik, should it not be khajirite or Ibadi for most west and central Africa? I'm not as well read on Islamic schools.

There are two things.
First - where do you think Islam is penetrated more than it should? In general I don't quite agree that it does, but in some parts it might, but for that I'd need to know what areas do you have in mind.

As for having separate branch of Islam for the Sahel, I fully agree. The syncretism was far beyond what would have been possible in other areas of Islamic world (except maybe India) and some Islamic scholars even didn't consider Sahelian Muslims a true muslims, so I deffinitely agree that there should be a separate branch.
Which branch should it be?
Well, the first muslims spreading Islam in the Sahel were predominantly Ibadi Berbers - that is Kharijite branch.
But since the 11th century and the dominance of Almoravids in the west parts of the Sahara, Malikite Islam became dominant. That is Sunni. In game terms it would be Ashari.

I would need to think more about this, but in general... we can see from - for instance - Malinke legends and the Sunjata epic, that although Sunjata and the Keita rulers of Mali were muslims and even had serious quarrels even with their important generals who refused Islam, they still based their legend on elements such as sorcery etc. and these elements survived in Sahelian islam of the Bambara and other Mandé people to this day, for instance via their caste system which still separates certain proffessions such as the blacksmiths from the general populace. And this separation has clear pre-Islamic or rather un-Islamic roots in local relgious traditions.
Edit:
In Kanem, we know that the first Muslim dynasty still maintained pre-Islamic (pagan) totem as symbol of their power well into the mid 13th century when zealous Muslim ruler finally destroyed it. Considering the influences to the Chad lake area, we can assume that also in this area the predominant Islamic school was Malikite Sunni => in game Ashari. But again, with strong sense of syncretism.

So the question is how many Islamic schools you think you could and you would want to create in the Sahel. Perhaps one for the potential victory of Ibadism in the Sahel if the Amoravids didn't manage to root it our. And one based on Asharism and belonging to Sunni Islam. Then there's a question whether a third branch of Sahelian Islam would make sense aswell, which would be anti-Syncretic and would represent the tendencies which led to the destruction of the Duguwa (Kanuri) un-Islamic idolatry as well as the Jihads fought by tealous Muslims, predominantly the Fulani, from the 16th century onwards.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

First - where do you think Islam is penetrated more than it should? In general I don't quite agree that it does, but in some parts it might, but for that I'd need to know what areas do you have in mind.

I don't know about the sub-Saharan areas, but seeing how Muslim gamers themselves say that Islam is overrepresented in Egyptian and Middle-Eastern provinces, I'd tend to believe that's the case in other areas as well.

 

[elvain]

I don't know about the sub-Saharan areas, but seeing how Muslim gamers themselves say that Islam is overrepresented in Egyptian and Middle-Eastern provinces, I'd tend to believe that's the case in other areas as well.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
First I seriously doubt that @Black7Emperor7, who has so far discussed exclusively sub-Saharan areas here, meant Egypt. Although I do admit that Egypt is slightly more muslim than it historically was., IMHO that can however be easily explained by gameplay/balance needs, which both in the base game and this mod take precedence ofer 100% historical accuracy).

and then, like in the post you replied to, we would need to talk about the particular areas you have in mind.
From what I checked, the spread of Islam in both the 867 and 1066 bookmarks in the Sahara and Sub-Saharan Africa pretty much fits the areas which were considered Islamic according to my research.
If you think there are major inaccuracies, let's talk about them, but please address them in particular and don't do this sort of assumptions.

I can for instance accept claims that in 867 there could still be pockets of Christian Latin speaking population in some towns and cities in Ifriqiya (k_africa), but as discussed already elswhere, these would make sense if the religion and culture was defined per barony, not per county. On county level however, this would make no sense, neither from accuracy nor gameplay perspective.

The only exception would be the Keita dynastyof Manding being muslim, which is ahistorical, although in accord with the dynasty's mythology. Like in the case of Egypt, I can agree with this being intentional for gameplay reasons. But since Black7Emperor7 mentioned provinces, I don't think this is what he meant.

 

[SMiki Lorebringer]

I don't really have any specific areas in mind, the research is not mine but @AdmiralPrice 's whose vids I've watched.

As a PhD student of Islam I reviewed Islam in CK3. Now, I'm bringing a wishlist for an Islam themed DLC

Hey All! Some of you shared my videos (867, 1066) here reviewing Islam in CK3 (big thanks for that!), and a lot of you seemed to enjoy this. I don't want to be in full "critique" mode forever (no one likes a chronic complainer), though, and this...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

PhD Student Reviews Islam in Crusader Kings 3

I found this on youtube: I am in no position to judge the information presented in this video but it's very interesting! EDIT 01.20.2020: Islam in 1066 | Crusader Kings 3 Historical Accuracy Review

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[elvain]

I don't really have any specific areas in mind, the research is not mine but @AdmiralPrice 's whose vids I've watched.

As a PhD student of Islam I reviewed Islam in CK3. Now, I'm bringing a wishlist for an Islam themed DLC

Hey All! Some of you shared my videos (867, 1066) here reviewing Islam in CK3 (big thanks for that!), and a lot of you seemed to enjoy this. I don't want to be in full "critique" mode forever (no one likes a chronic complainer), though, and this...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

PhD Student Reviews Islam in Crusader Kings 3

I found this on youtube: I am in no position to judge the information presented in this video but it's very interesting! EDIT 01.20.2020: Islam in 1066 | Crusader Kings 3 Historical Accuracy Review

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Oh, this. yes, he's a PhD student and from what I was able to listen, he does have some amazing knowledge, indeed. But I wouldn't take everything he says as 100% true. He did make some good points, but from perspective of somebody, who has studied and worked with history of Islam for roughly twice as long as he does (assuming he's a good student), I'm sorry, but from the very little I have listened he's often looking at things from somehow narrow perspective. But I do admit I am biased. Perhaps strongly biased against him.

It's simply because his voice in those videos is so affected that for me - a radio reporter and hence a proffesional trained how to speak interestingly, yet naturally - it is physically painful to listen to his videos :-( so despite knowing that he has some interesting knowledge and ideas, I can't bear listening that for more than one minute. I did try taking pauses and go bit by bit and I managed to make it through his first video, but the others I just could not. And trust me, I tried several times and tried hard! :-(

Funnily enough, for that reason (to get to his ideas without suffering physical pain) and for recognizing that he has some good knowledge which could be useful, I talked to him and asked whether he could help us improve the game (other way than posting a youtube videos about how shitty it is). But he said he isn't interested... and instead posted another video. It seems like making youtube videos about popular games, getting benefits from shares and views from its fans and being a hero of the crowd is something he's more interested than helping - even after being offered to get mediated contact directly to the devs

 

[elvain]

Re Jukun they actually sort of set up in the game history files with # notes (tho set all as nupe). So finding the characters to switch to jukun culture was very easy. I have a name list (tho could def add more), a list of names to be used for dynasties, mercenary name list, and a religion- Bashoism. All set up in my game already.

May I ask what you mean? I don't really understand this. The Nupe names certainly are not a Jukun names. There's just a Jukun mentioned as a dynasty at the top of the Nupe dynasty names, that's all.
Any better idea for Jukun names?

 

[Black7Emperor7]

May I ask what you mean? I don't really understand this. The Nupe names certainly are not a Jukun names. There's just a Jukun mentioned as a dynasty at the top of the Nupe dynasty names, that's all.
Any better idea for Jukun names?

I'll clarify because you have misunderstood me. I simply saying the dynasties and territories that would logically be assigned to a Jukun culture ruler is already flagged as such in the games history files, as such once you have created a jukun culture its very easy to identify in the files without evening looking closely in game to see which dynasties and counties need to have jukum culture set.

The name list i have generated from a thesis I read about traditional Jukun family, social and religious customs in the Wukari area. Its by no means a definitive list but sufficient for our purposes at this point.

 

[elvain]

Here's a small picture of how has the project slowly moved ahead in recent weeks (as I outlined previously, the progress has slowed down for various reasons, but don't worry)
Here is the central part of Nigeria around the Benue river. I added 2 new counties there for the Jukun, and I plan adding probably one more in the region of Kasar Chiki, but I need some more information.
Then I want to do some small changes to the areas to the south between the border of the map and the areas currently occupied by Igbo.
The area deserves one or two more counties, so it could become a separate duchy, which would allow a reconstruction of the area by splitting the Greater Nri kingdom in 2.
Here is the current (WIP) counties setup with outlined cultures in 867 and 1066. The 1066 is quite anachronistic, as both the Jukun and the Nupe have expanded to those areas later (in the 13th/15th centuries), but I want to add some dynamism. Especially in the case of the Jukun. Since we don't know who was there before them, I think it won't be that bad to allow creation of their Kwararafa confederation some 200 years earlier (1066 instead of mid 13th/14th century).

outline of 867 cultural setup:

Outline of 1066 cultural setup:

The green areas will be covered by the Akpoto people. From what I was able to find, they are the earliest known people of the Niger-Benue confluence areas with the Jukun, Nupe and other people known to migrate to the region during later part of CK3 era.
As long as I won't find a better information about who inhabited the areas of Opanda, Keffi and Wukari counties earlier, I will keep them filled with the Akpoto people.
EDIT: I know that having Jukun in Bauchi isn't really historical, (since their original territories were more to the east - around the Gongola river) but neither is having it Hausa. And this setup will at least make the Jukun slightly more significant.

Any inputs or suggestion on potential improvements of this setup are of course welcome.

I'll clarify because you have misunderstood me. I simply saying the dynasties and territories that would logically be assigned to a Jukun culture ruler is already flagged as such in the games history files, as such once you have created a jukun culture its very easy to identify in the files without evening looking closely in game to see which dynasties and counties need to have jukum culture set.

Heh, yes I know that the Jukun rulers are identified in character files as Jukun chiefs. But there was no issue about where should the Jukun be placed. We already talked about this at several other places and you knew that there was no problem with this. Also among other things, from our discussions I think it shouldn't be hard for you to guess who put those #marks into those files. I know about those #marks and I also know that the names those characters bear are taken from the name list used for the Nupe.

But it has indeed confused me to see you talking about this, when the question asked was pretty clearly only about a name list for the Jukun: "If you could help by finding or creating a name list, it would be extremely helpfull - namelists are among the most annoying things about cultures from my perspective."

I thought the question was clear and I am sorry if it wasn't.

The name list i have generated from a thesis I read about traditional Jukun family, social and religious customs in the Wukari area. Its by no means a definitive list but sufficient for our purposes at this point.

I think that some of the name lists for other cultures are quite brief, so I believe that if the list has more than 20/10 names for male and female characters, it should be sufficent. I guess I know the thesis as I checked it for other info... but if you have already made the list, would you be willing to share it? As I said, compiling this sort of lists is one of the most annoying things for me, so it would be greatly appreciated, if you could save me the annoyance

 

[Black7Emperor7]

I have a much longer reply to type but yes of course ill share the name list with you. I also did a dynasty name list to use as well, no problem. I have a title list as well.