[Mod] A Game of Thrones (Original Super Thread)

[MrWeRD]

I think God alone could be an appropriate name for the Seven.

For example, Elohim is a pretty awesome name. It's unique, very fun to say. It's basically a foreign word that means God, but who's to say "R'hllor" isn't just a direct translation of the phrase "The Red God" or something similar in High Valyrian?

More commonly, you can see this practice in our own names. In English names, you have Jason(healer), Kerrick(king's rule), Brandon(broom). You can even find it in "modern names" like the parents who named their kids Melody, Hope, and Dick. A lot of people considered them to be silly/unoriginal names, but in two hundred years, three hundred, who's to say what will happen? Same for Asians, Russians, and just about any culture you can find.

Most of Westeros now use the Common Tongue, but in everywhere else, there are other languages. If a Westerosi say "God" or "the Seven" to a foreigner, then the other person could hear differently instead, precieve it as a name, but to themselves, it will still the same. It may even become be an "official" name like R'hllor is when Westeros develop another language to replace the Common Tongue.

 

[Necal]

Technically, the Judeo-Christian god doesn't have a name either in common parlance -- he is merely God, or some other attribute assigned to him. (Yahweh basically means "creator" and is not a proper name.) The Seven are based on Catholicism, where you distinct the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Only the Son has a proper name, and that is only due to having been a human in a human society that liked naming things. So, imagine that the Seven together make the Sevenfold God. Really, unless you have a significant pantheon, you don't need nor want names for your deities.

YHWH is a proper name in any sense of the meaning.

 

[jmberry]

Even "Zeus" and "Ba'al" aren't names. "Zeus" means "God" (it comes from the same root as Deus). "Ba'al" means "Lord [of Creation]".

 

[Necal]

Even "Zeus" and "Ba'al" aren't names. "Zeus" means "God" (it comes from the same root as Deus). "Ba'al" means "Lord [of Creation]".

Eh.... its less that Zeus means God and more that God means Zeus (the root for Zeus translates to, if memory serves, Sky Father, and Deus was an off shoot of the development of Zeus from that base).

 

[Ols]

Dyeus is the original Indo-European root, any terminology derived from it (not Semitic terminology) will sound similar. It does mean something akin to Sky Father or Sky God - the Supreme God in pretty much all European traditional pantheons. The Romuva/Baltic religion actually preserved it very well, and their paganism was very close to what was originally believed by the first Indo-Europeans, as the seemed to have declined to innovate.

 

[Deathshead419]

Even "Zeus" and "Ba'al" aren't names. "Zeus" means "God" (it comes from the same root as Deus). "Ba'al" means "Lord [of Creation]".

I’d like to point out that a word can be both a proper name and have a separate meaning. My own name, William, ultimately derives from ‘Will-helm’, or ‘Force Helmet’. Zeus ultimately derives from PIE Dyeus-phter, or ‘Sky Father’. Just because a name can be used as a word does not mean that is isn’t a name.

For all we know, R'hllor might just be... Asshaian for Lord of Light/Red God/God of Flame, so I wouldn't assume that's the name of the god itself.

Even if that were true, it could be both a word and a name. Also, where is there any evidence that R’hllor is not his proper name?

As for Drowned God, Storm God, etc. … I'd place my bet on some sort of sanctity of the name.

Again, is there anything to back this up? We had a Priest of the Iron Islander Religion as a PoV Character, yet I don’t recall him referring to an alternate, hidden name. I’d buy that the god’s name is simply forbidden, if there was something to support it.

You are asking about Faith of Seven? If I were to answer that, I'd point out that they are not even „gods”. Naming them „Mother”, „Father”, etc. instead of „R'hllor”, „[someothergodname]” etc. helps to understand that they are facets of the same, one, god (to some point like the concept of Holy Trinity), and not autonomous beings.

The characters in the books seem to refer to the Seven in a fairly polytheistic manner (Priesthood excluded, naturally). They worship the seven individually, refer to them as gods, plural, on numerous occasions, and take different aspects as personal deities (Robert and Edric Storm both being referred to as “Warrior” men). This seems odd to me since they have titles, but not real names (“The Warrior” is not a proper name).

Neo-Platonism was the worship of the single creator god, believing that the pantheon (Jupiter, Minerva, Mars) were simply aspects of the one God. A similar concept is present in many forms of Hinduism.

Ignoring for a moment their internal history, (if you guys are allowed to speculate then so am I) it seems likely that The Faith of Seven was born out of an earlier, polytheistic tradition amongst the Andals, in a similar manner. You’d think they’d have the names of the older pantheon held over from the earlier traditions.

Furthermore, if four thousand years have passed since the invasion (which is another issue I have, but, never mind), then even if they did originally have no names, that’s more than enough time for the Seven’s original titles to have linguistically morphed into names.


Also, YAY, arguing on a gaming forum about fantasy Deities!

 

[A-D.]

I think it has to do with the fact that godly matters are just that, godly. All the westerosi people might not actually really believe, or care for the gods. But if i was to be totally logical here, i think its basicly GRRM's way of avoiding cliche godnames, eventually it would drift into that. R'hllor works due to its basis as a foreign language, the names of the 3 original dragons of the targaryens like Balerion are actually names from old valyrian gods, but again its based in a foreign tongue. Technically speaking, Westerosi, or the common tongue, is basicly "whatever your primary language you are reading this in is", so for a english reader, the common tongue is english, for a spanish reader, its spanish (based on the print and localisation).

It would be a bit jarring if he were to use a seperate, second language in his common tongue, because it implies that characters speak different languages but we just get a "universal translator" or something and all the characters speak all the possible dialects, accents and languages in the seven kingdoms. Though you could also argue that the people never actually named their gods, whichever they pray to, so it is just "the red god" and "the drowned god" and so forth.

 

[DarkReborn]

Even if that were true, it could be both a word and a name. Also, where is there any evidence that R’hllor is not his proper name?

I don't know if you would qualify this of canon, but David J. Peterson, the dude who's making up the Valyrian conlang for Martin, figured out that the name "R'hllor" probably is loan word from an Eastern language. The actual term for Rhllor in Valyrian is Aeksiot Oño; "Lord of Light".

Ignoring for a moment their internal history, (if you guys are allowed to speculate then so am I) it seems likely that The Faith of Seven was born out of an earlier, polytheistic tradition amongst the Andals, in a similar manner. You’d think they’d have the names of the older pantheon held over from the earlier traditions.

That would kind of make sense.... the Seven religion and priesthood structure would be "reformed" (in CK2 terms) versions of the Essosi Andals polytheistic traditions.

Also, YAY, arguing on a gaming forum about fantasy Deities!

That's only the tip of the iceberg that is Paradox Forums

 

[Ols]

I wouldn't be surprised if R'hllor is ultimately from Asshai's language. They seem to have the most inset respect for the religion, which could indicate that it originated there.

I tried to have a go at deconstructing First Men religion on the dedicated forums, ultimately I figured that their original religion involved a seemingly very European pantheon of elements such as a Storm God, Drowned God, and a speculative Fire God, Stone God, ect. Most likely different regions took on different patrons relating to their environment. These religions would have slowly faded away after the pact, though more southern regions probably held on longer, with the Iron Islands never adopting it at all, and the Stormlands sticking with the Storm God at least for a while after the Long Night. As for the Andals, I suspect they never had a unified religion until the seven was preached. Most likely a pantheon was picked out of exisiting deities and concepts, and certain gods were abandoned because there were useless for organising society. It's very possible that religions with the same theological origins as the Faith are the ones present in the Free Cities - the Many-Faced God and Bakkalon certainly sound like they're aspects of Andal faith that have been singled out and magnified.

 

[Deathshead419]

I don't know if you would qualify this of canon, but David J. Peterson, the dude who's making up the Valyrian conlang for Martin, figured out that the name "R'hllor" probably is loan word from an Eastern language. The actual term for Rhllor in Valyrian is Aeksiot Oño; "Lord of Light".

Honestly, that is something, which is infinitely more than nothing. Though I’d still probably go with “It can be a word and name too" argument. And, after watching all three seasons with my family (Because they refused to read the books and I was determined to get them to understand my references somehow), I’m on the fence as to whether or not the show qualifies as a semi-separate entity.

They’re both following the same material and plot, but, by this point the differences are really starting to compound upon each other. Not saying anything about the quality, or making any judgments on the alterations. Just saying they are there and they are pretty significant by this point.

Also, I’ve read up on the language construction. According to that, GRRM made up about seven words of Valyrian and the linguist they hired for the show had to work backwards, using proper names and place names, in order to construct the language.

And, in the context of the world, it could be that the Valyrians mis-translated the name. “Egypt” is actually based on the original name of the city of Memphis, after around 2000 years of repeated borrowings and phonological drift.

But now I’m just making shit up.

That's only the tip of the iceberg that is Paradox Forums

Oh, oh I may not have left too many comments here, but I’ve been lurking on these forums for about a year now. The Nationalist threads, man.

 

[firelordzuko]

Oh, oh I may not have left too many comments here, but I’ve been lurking on these forums for about a year now. The Nationalist threads, man.

The wincest and infanticide, man!

 

[verdas]

Technically, the Judeo-Christian god doesn't have a name either in common parlance.

This is generally correct, but he/it does have a sort of name beyond just various translations of "god" or "the lord" - Tetragrammaton. While it's not a name in the modern sense - "I am That I am" - I'd classify it as a name, since it is usually replaced with a title. /pointless nerd talk.:happy:

 

[Necal]

This is generally correct, but he/it does have a sort of name beyond just various translations of "god" or "the lord" - Tetragrammaton. While it's not a name in the modern sense - "I am That I am" - I'd classify it as a name, since it is usually replaced with a title. /pointless nerd talk.:happy:

That's YHWH, or Yahweh.

Also, the majority of names we can find roots for are exactly like that; titles and words or phrases that ended up being migrated to names for whatever reasons. Hell, my name has roots in the word "twin". The majority of the time, names that we can't prove fit something like that just by going back are those that have been used since before writing and recording history were things.

 

[Archivist0000]

The Queen is most generous.

 

[Lord of Pain]

The Queen is most generous.

You must be the true power behind the throne, kudos.

 

[Archivist0000]

You must be the true power behind the throne, kudos.

Me? I am but a humble servant of the crown...

 

[Darth Cheesecak]

Me? I am but a humble servant of the crown...

This should end well.

 

[firelordzuko]

Me? I am but a humble servant of the crown...

Only the first subject ...

 

[Vindahl]

Is there a hotfix out? First post only have 4.7?

Bump?

 

[grzegorz444]

Bump?

Seems hotfix(new mod version) fix ruins and megwar, but broke savegames:laugh:
The team quickly notice it and probobly that's why new version isn't available here(strange in spite of all)