New provinces to Northern Europe

[Entrone]

Hello guys!
Welcome to my suggestion of reworking, perfecting Northern Europe
As the feedbacks are looking positive, i will try to polish this suggestion, so when the time comes we will have a nice rework for the region.

Table of contents:
I. Map changes:

1. Scotland
2. Scandinavia
3. Bothnia and Finland
4. Karelia
5. Baltic
6. Prussia

II. Miscellaneous (under development)

1. Events
2. Missions
3. National Ideas

I. Map Changes

1. Scotland

While Scotland got a buff recently, it still feels lacking. England usually easily conquer it until 1500 in one or two wars. So i propose to give more strength and detail to the lowland parts, by dividing it into Central Lowlands and Aberdeen states.

New provinces (capital): trade good, terrain
Moray (Elgin): fish, highland <--- North of Aberdeen.
Angus/Forfar (Dundee): wool/cloth, farmland/highland <---South of Aberdeen.
Lanark (Glasgow): iron, farmland <---Between Lothian and Ayrshire, so you can't move directly between them.
Fife (St. Andrews): livestock, grassland <--- Small, yet important.
Durham (Durham): iron/grain?, grassland <--- South of Northumbria, not part of it.

Minor corrections:
-Put the island of Bute to Argyll province, as it's not even part of the Hebrides.
-Norway could have some missions, regarding the Isles, as it was colonised by them and ruled until 1266.
-Move the CoT from Ayrshire to Lanark (Maybe also the coal, as it was mined in both places, see sources).
-Change the terrain of Argyll, Perth and Aberdeen to Highland from Hills, Change Inverness to Mountains from Highland.
-Move the coal from Northumbria to Durham.
-New Aberdeen state: Aberdeen, Moray, Angus/Forfar.
-Border fixed for Argyll, Perth, Inverness.

Sources:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/sct_cmap.gif
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Palatine_of_Durham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanarkshire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus,_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee
http://www.wwmm.org/immagini/z_1716.jpg


2. Scandinavia

Scandinavia is one of the best regions in the game, yet it needs a few provinces to be perfect. For example the enormous capital provinces. Besides Sweden is lacking the might to carry out it's historical role, and be a decent rival for Russia or Poland in it's own. So they would need at least a slight buff.

New provinces (capital): trade good
Buskerud (Tonsberg): fur <--- Western half of Akerhus, that was separated from it in the 17th century.
Hedemark (Kongsvinger): naval sup/fur <---- Eastern half of Opplanda.
Roskilde (Roskilde): naval supp/livestock <--- Capital of Denmark until 1443
Jönköping (Jönköping): livestock <--- Maybe a lvl1 CoT, as it was an important market town
Södermanland (Nyköping): fish/livestock <--- Southern part of current Stockholm
Uppland (Uppsala): grain <--- It was the center of the Archdiocese of Sweden

Minor changes:
-Rename the existing Tioharad province to Kronoberg, and change it's tradegood into grain (or maybe livestock)
-Rename Östergotland to Linköping, because that's the state's name.
-There could be an event for the founding of Gothenburg.
-The strait's danish end should be in Copenhagen province, not Roskilde.
-Now there's enough provinces for a decent Östra Svealand with Södermanland, Uppland, Stockholm and maybe Aland, so Bergslagen can be moved to Vastra Svealand state where it does belong.
-Sea tiles slightly redrawn to represen the Öresund better.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jönköping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buskerud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gothenburg


3. Bothnia and Finland

While the map projection shows this area a lot larger than it is really, some provinces are still awfully big (especially Halsingland, compared to being relatively on the south). Besides, Finnish provinces with this little polish perfectly reflect the area at the time. Red dots are the capitals of the -
New provinces (capital): trade good
Angermanland (Härnösand): fish <---Northern part of current Halsingland.
Kymmenegard (Heinola/Pyttis): fish <---Carved out of Savolax, Nyland and Viborg, alternative name Kymmenedalen.

Minor changes:
-Norrland state: Västerbotten, Angermanland, and Halsingland.
-Lappland and Jokkmokk to Laponia state.
-Ostrobothnia/Österbotten state and Enare redrawn.
-Birkaland merged with the northern part of Åbo to form Björneborg/Satakunda province (Ulsby).
-Finland Proper/Western Finland state: Åland, Satakunda, Åbo.
-The new Tavastia/Central Finland state: Nyland, Tavastland, Savolax, Kymmenegard.
-The region also lacks center of trades. Potential lvl1 CoTs: Åbo, Viborg.
-There could be an event in the 17th century for Sweden for the founding the town of Vaasa in Österbotten.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ångermanland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gävle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satakunta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turku


4. Karelia

There's the updated Karelia. You can see the new province in Finland, Kymmenegard.
So while thinking about possigle Karelian states, I realized that this also bothered me somewhat. And it's the extension of Karelian culture. And when I was looking for material I found that my new province is not just more aesthetic, but also historical. It helps to correct the Novgorod-Beloozero boerder. So the province:
Vytegra (Vytegra): fish, woods, novgorodian, to Beloozero state.

Minor changes:
-Laponia state: Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola.
-Karelia state: Viborg, Karelen, Priozhersk/Kexholm, White Karelia, Olonets.
-Ingria state: Ingermanland, Neva, Ladoga.
-Change Ingermanland to Karelian culture. I would also like a Finnic culture group with Sapmi, Finnish, Karelian, and Estonian.
-Make Karelian an accepted culture of Novgorod, as they were allies against the Swedes.
-Fixed the border of White Karelia, Enare, Kola and Kajanaland. The grey line is the original border of Kola and White Karelia.
-Ladoga's capital should be Staraya Ladoga (it's viking name Aldeigjuborg could be used by germanic nations).

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytegra
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/25/3c/ae253cf2eefb09e12aee7208b03f658a.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Novgorodian_Wars


5. Baltic

As it's already powerful neighbours, the russians and the polish got an update recently, the Livonian Order is in the dire situation at the start of the game. This could be eased somewhat by updating it's terribly outdated map. With green the capital of new provinces.

4 new provinces for Estonia:
Wiek/Laane (Hapsal/Haapsalu): fish <---There was the Bishopric of Wiek.
Pernau/Pärnu (same): naval supplies <--- Important town (possible lvl1 CoT), western part of Fellin.
Fellin/Viljandi (same): livestock <---The strongest castle of the Order.
Wesenberg/Rakvere: (same): grain <--- Quite important town, western half of Narwa.
and 2 for Latvia:
Windau/Ventspils (same): naval supplies <--- Was the main port of the Duchy of Courland.
Selburg/Selonia? (Selburg): livestock <---Carved out from Lettgallen and Mitau to represent Courland better.
(We could merge back the new Wesenberg province to Reval and Narwa, and unite Fellin and Pernau for a more conservative version, but we would still need to add a state, so if it has to be done, do it well.)

Minor changes:
-Change the trade good of Riga to something more prestigious, like cloth, and raise CoT to lvl2.
-Give Reval a lvl1 CoT and change trade good to salt? Change the trade good of Narwa to fish.
-Possible releasable tags: Bishopric of Dorpat, Bishopric of Wiek (Ösel-Wiek, claim on Ösel?).
-Estonia state: Ösel, Wiek, Reval, Wesenberg, Narwa.
-Livonia state: Dorpat, Fellin, Pernau, Wolmar.
-Courland state: Goldingen, Windau, Mitau, Selburg.
-And the new Vidzeme/Latgalia/Wenden state: Riga, Wenden, Dünaburg.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakvere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pärnu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viljandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_regions_of_Latvia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenden_Voivodeship
http://www.mois.ee/kaart/kaart_eesti_eng.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...1260.svg/2000px-Medieval_Livonia_1260.svg.png


6. Prussia

As I checked the neighbouring regions I realized Prussia definately belongs to this thread, so I decided to include it in my suggestion. Their main rival, Poland, and Lithuania got an update recently, with a new event, which led the Teutons in a dire situation. Not to mention the Baltic region right now is only 26 province, that's less than half of some other regions. And right next to the (likely soon updated) HRE, Prussia's provinces are enormous. With these changes we could not just represent the region historically more accurate, but also alleviate Prussia's problems. All we have to do is resurrecting the Pomerelia state, and add 3 provinces.
Let me introduce you the possible new provinces:
-Bütow (Lauenburg/Bütow): naval supplies, grassland, pomeranian/kashubian <--- Lauenburg and Bütow had been part of both Pomerania and the Teuton lands.
-Schwetz (same): livestock, grassland, prussian <---One of the oldest towns in the region, added by splitting Tuchel, better representing cultures (Swiecie in polish).
-Intersburg (same): grain, woods, prussian <--- Probably the biggest town in Eastern Prussia after Königsberg.

Minor corrections:
-Revive Pomerelia state: Danzig, Tuchel, Bütow, Schwetz
-West Prussia state: Marienburg, Ermland, Osterode, and maybe Kulm (which is currently in Kuyavia).
-East Prussia state: Königsberg, Intersburg, Ortelsburg, Memel.
-Ortelsburg could have Polish culture.
-Stolp, Bütow, and Tuchel could be Kashubian (West Slavic) culture. With this we could reflect the slavic presence at the region.
-Maybe lvl1 CoT for Kulm?
-Redrawn several provinces to fix borders.

Sources:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Polska_1386_-_1434.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Teutonic_Order_1410-es.svg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/K0nigl+BherzoglPreussen_en.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...huania_-_Geographicus_-_Prussia-cary-1799.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świecie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenburg_and_Bütow_Land
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Netzedistrict1786.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians
http://en.kaszubia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/16401.png


So in total these changes would give 4 new provinces to Scotland, 1 to England, Denmark, Norway, and Novgorod, 3 to Teutonic Order, 5 to Sweden and 6 to Livonian Order.
Thank you for your attention and feel free to add something to the topic

II. Miscellaneous (Under development!)
1. Events.
-Founding the town of Vaasa
-Founding the town of Gothenburg
-Gotland pirate nation on ruler death.
2. Missions
-Hebrides for Norway.
-Estonia for Sweden.
-Colonial mission's for Denmark (Caribbean, Gold Coast, maybe even India -Frederiksøerne, Tranquebar)
-Eastern expansion for Sweden and Denmark.
3. National ideas

Previous similar suggestions:
Minor redraw of Sea provinces around Bornholm: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/borders-of-southern-baltic-sea.1035316/ by TheDungen
Baltic patch general stuff: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ndic-nordic-patch-general-suggestion.1046616/ by AirikrStrife
Improvements to Livonia: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-changes-in-baltic-sea.1003803/ by Nikita Dirigable
Scotland: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ce-glasgow-or-strathclyde-to-scotland.979713/ by gronak

(Changelog:
- Updated Bothnia and Finland: New province: Kymmenegard, merged Satakunda with Birkaland, reworked Bothnia.
- Updated the Baltic: Merged Rositten&Dünaburg, Wenden stays united, reworked states.
- Added Karelia: New province: Vytegra, reworked states around Karelia
- Updated Scotland: Changed Lanark, now it has a port, not Perth.
- Added Prussia: New provinces: Bütow, Insterburg, Tilsit. Revive Pomerelia state.
- Updated Bothnia: Gastrikland merged back to Halsingland, reworked states.
- Updated Prussia: New province: Schwetz, Tilsit merged back to Memel.
- Updated Scandinavia: New province: Hedemark. Vestfold removed. Sea tiles slightly redrawn.
Thanks to AirikrStrife, gronak, and qweyt for the suggestions. )

 

[Funlover]

I'm definitely in favor for Roskilde being added as it does bother me how it's notably absent. I also like Latvia and Estonia getting a face lift along with Scandinavia cause it's province's are very big and blocky and i don't like that.

 

[Entrone]

I'm definitely in favor for Roskilde being added as it does bother me how it's notably absent. I also like Latvia and Estonia getting a face lift along with Scandinavia cause it's province's are very big and blocky and i don't like that.

I'm glad you like it

I decided to add Prussia to the suggestion also!
Because of it's strong connection with the updated regions, and it's weakness compared to Poland justify us to include it, and add a few provinces to them, right?
The Baltic region currently has 26 provinces, that's less than half of some other regions. And I don't think prussian states have to reflect the Duchy-Royal division (which didn't exist in 1444), but rather some historical aspect.
In the Polish patch the Pomerelia and Eastern Prussia states got merged, which would restrict us to 10 provinces.
Now I think that's just not enough. My idea, new provinces' capital in red:

So revive Pomerelia and we have 3 states:
-Pomerelia: Danzig, Tuchel, Bütow (+Maybe we could add something, Danzig is quite big, but Tuchola would be enormous).
-West Prussia: Marienburg, Kulm, Ermland, Osterode.
-East Prussia: Königsberg, Intersburg, Ortelsburg, Tilsit.
Memel could be part of Samogitia state.

New provinces so far:
-Bütow (Lauenburg/Bütow): fish?, grassland/woods, pomeranian/prussian/kashubian <--- This province switched between Pomerania and Poland/Teutons more time, worth representing
-Intersburg (same): grain, woods, prussian <--- Probably the biggest town in Eastern Prussia after Königsberg.
-Tilsit (same): fish, woods, prussian <---Another important town at the Memel-Tilse confluence.

Minor corrections:
-Redrawn the provinces Stolp, Kolberg, Notec, Tuchel, Danzig, Marienburg, Inowroclaw, Kulm, Osterode, Wizna, Ortelsburg, to portray them accurately.
-Maybe lvl1 CoT for Kulm?
-Imo Danzig should stay Prussian, if we would add that +1 province to Pomerelia, we could have a Kashubian (Western Slav) culture with 3 provinces.

Sources:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Polska_1386_-_1434.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Order_1260.png/1024px-Teutonic_Order_1260.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/K0nigl+BherzoglPreussen_en.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...huania_-_Geographicus_-_Prussia-cary-1799.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsk,_Kaliningrad_Oblast
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Netzedistrict1786.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians

Suggestions for trade good, or a new province, probably split from Tuchel?
My best guess is Schwetz/Swiecie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świecie

 

[Xetfield]

Yeah, I suggest Prussia has the most urgent need of provinces. It also have the biggest chance to see them, because this land was critically important for the history of Europe and Germany in these years.

 

[Entrone]

Regarding cultures i would like to share:
Kashubians around 1640:

Cultures in the 14th century:

Cultures 1850:

There's an older suggestion citing this question:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/diversifying-prussia.915788/
Honestly I would rather skip their idea of adding Pruthenian, but I'm not sure about Tilsit and Intersburg being Lithuanian..

So I propose change the culture of Ortelsburg to Polish, and Stolp, Tuchel and Bütow to the new Kashubian culture.


With this we can represent the slavic presence, without having a weird shaped polish culture.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Concerning states/areas in northern fennoscandia.

Norrland is a general term which was used for all of northern sweden and finland,
In the middle ages Hälsingland was used for all of the swedish inhabited areas north of svealand, but eventually that fell out of use and only denotes the modern land of helsingland by the time we reach the euiv timeline

Bottnia refers to the area around the bay of Bothnia (the word literaly mean the bottom or end). Orginally there was a unified Bothnia which covered the whole western and eastern bothnia but already in the 15th century this was divided in an eastern and western bothnia. From that pooint the two sides of bothnia never appeared administratively together, both areas had very low population, Österbotten were still pretty autonomous up to the cudgel war in the 1590's. Västerbotten does go better together with the swedish parts of norrland and was administered so to begin with

Before 1634 all of Norrland (both sides of bay of bothnia) was administered together (the parts which were under somewhat central organisation)
At this time the samis are largely independent but paying taxes to either norway or sweden depending on where they live, it's not until 17th century we start seeing a process of conversation, assimilation and colonization which leads to the integration of lappland into the swedish state. Administratively speaking there never been a 'Lappland' province in the swedish history, originally it was various Lappmarker which were taxed and once they were incorporated in the swedish administration they never had their own county

in 1634 all of Norrland on the western side of bothnia was part of västernorrlands län, from this point on finnish österbotten and swedish västerbotten will never be administered together.

After 1634 we see occasional changes in counties in norrland, but they never unite with finland again, so while naming a state Bottnia is a nice idea (I'm a big fan of this altmap as you can see in the comment section https://www.deviantart.com/fennomanic/art/Kingdom-of-Bothnia-542633964 ) there are more historically accurate ways of representing northern sweden/finland

Norrland: Hälsingland, Västernorrland, Västerbotten,

Lappland: Lappland**, Jokkmokk, Enare, Finnmarken(?)

Österbotten: Vaasa*, Oulu*, Kainu,

I want to see Kola removed from the scandinavia region altogether.

This is a more historical representation of how these areas were administered by sweden. There are a couple of other ways I looked at doing it which would also be decent

*Whatever these provinces end up being called
** should probably change name, I suggest Åsele (after the river, village came later)

Sidenote 1
The Ångermanland province you drawn covers the land, while remaining Hälsingland province covers both Hälsingland and Medelpad lands. Histroically Medelpad always been administered together with Ångermanland, so your Ångermanland province should have it's borders shifted south to include Medelpad aswell.
Sidenote 2
Before 1809, parts of modern Österbotten were part of sedish Västerbotten, the EUIV map tries had drawn the border along the modern finnish-swedish border which came into existence in 1809. While I don't consider this crucial, it's a border which could be moved from it's current position on the Torne river eastward to the Kemi river. I feel the game is more and more shifting towards having borders as accurate for 1444 as possible and not cartering too much to later start dates, as was shown in poland patch there they botchered the Prussian Netze province

For areas in Karelia:
I strongly suggest a western Karelia area covering the parts of karelia which has been historically administered by sweden, Viborg, Karelia and Priozersk, this also aligns better with historic novgorodian and russian administration

Then one eastern Karelia area covering Kem, Olonets and Kola

With Ingermanland, Neva and Ladoga.

These division makes enough sense from a russian perspective aswell

For Finland:
The remaining Finland also got too many provinces, Åland*, Åbo, Björneborg, Tavastaland, Savolax, Nyland and Kymenegård

*Åland, while histroically always finish speaking, has been administered together with Åbo/finland since the middle ages. While it's not crucial if it's part of svealand or norrland I put it here for now

I feel however I end up suggesting splitting Finland area, there is a level of arbitariness, so there could be other ways, but I'm trying to minimize the amount of areas (more areas always bad, especially in low development parts of the world)

I would take that Western Karelia province I suggested and move Savolax and Kymenegård to it, while keeping the rest as Finland.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Alternatively, there could be an area corresponding to the duchy of Finland

Björneborg, Åbo and Åland

That would lead to the creation of one central finnish area, Tavastaland, Nyland, Savolax and Kymenegård, which would be naed Central Finland or Tavastia
It has some historical poetry, as traditionaly what would become finland started out as Suomi (finns proper) Häme (tavastians) and Karjala (Karelians), it is possible that people to some extent thought like that, as in swedish traditions finland was annexed through three crusaders, one to each of those areas

 

[Entrone]

Concerning states/areas in northern fennoscandia.

Norrland is a general term which was used for all of northern sweden and finland,
In the middle ages Hälsingland was used for all of the swedish inhabited areas north of svealand, but eventually that fell out of use and only denotes the modern land of helsingland by the time we reach the euiv timeline

Bottnia refers to the area around the bay of Bothnia (the word literaly mean the bottom or end). Orginally there was a unified Bothnia which covered the whole western and eastern bothnia but already in the 15th century this was divided in an eastern and western bothnia. From that pooint the two sides of bothnia never appeared administratively together, both areas had very low population, Österbotten were still pretty autonomous up to the cudgel war in the 1590's. Västerbotten does go better together with the swedish parts of norrland and was administered so to begin with

Before 1634 all of Norrland (both sides of bay of bothnia) was administered together (the parts which were under somewhat central organisation)
At this time the samis are largely independent but paying taxes to either norway or sweden depending on where they live, it's not until 17th century we start seeing a process of conversation, assimilation and colonization which leads to the integration of lappland into the swedish state. Administratively speaking there never been a 'Lappland' province in the swedish history, originally it was various Lappmarker which were taxed and once they were incorporated in the swedish administration they never had their own county

in 1634 all of Norrland on the western side of bothnia was part of västernorrlands län, from this point on finnish österbotten and swedish västerbotten will never be administered together.

After 1634 we see occasional changes in counties in norrland, but they never unite with finland again, so while naming a state Bottnia is a nice idea (I'm a big fan of this altmap as you can see in the comment section https://www.deviantart.com/fennomanic/art/Kingdom-of-Bothnia-542633964 ) there are more historically accurate ways of representing northern sweden/finland

Norrland: Hälsingland, Västernorrland, Västerbotten,

Lappland: Lappland**, Jokkmokk, Enare, Finnmarken(?)

Österbotten: Vaasa*, Oulu*, Kainu,

I want to see Kola removed from the scandinavia region altogether.

This is a more historical representation of how these areas were administered by sweden. There are a couple of other ways I looked at doing it which would also be decent

*Whatever these provinces end up being called
** should probably change name, I suggest Åsele (after the river, village came later)

Sidenote 1
The Ångermanland province you drawn covers the land, while remaining Hälsingland province covers both Hälsingland and Medelpad lands. Histroically Medelpad always been administered together with Ångermanland, so your Ångermanland province should have it's borders shifted south to include Medelpad aswell.
Sidenote 2
Before 1809, parts of modern Österbotten were part of sedish Västerbotten, the EUIV map tries had drawn the border along the modern finnish-swedish border which came into existence in 1809. While I don't consider this crucial, it's a border which could be moved from it's current position on the Torne river eastward to the Kemi river. I feel the game is more and more shifting towards having borders as accurate for 1444 as possible and not cartering too much to later start dates, as was shown in poland patch there they botchered the Prussian Netze province
.

Okay, so be it, no Hälsingland state, no Gästrikland province, or at least yet. But Norrland state is back, and contains Västerbotten. That Österbotten province is also fine.
I will redraw Ångermanland to include Medelpad, and that border in Vasterbotten could be resolved too.

I want to see Kola removed from the scandinavia region altogether.

I don't agree on that. While it got slavicized quite early, it was part of the Sami lands, so I think it's right in the Laponia area.

For areas in Karelia:
I strongly suggest a western Karelia area covering the parts of karelia which has been historically administered by sweden, Viborg, Karelia and Priozersk, this also aligns better with historic novgorodian and russian administration

Then one eastern Karelia area covering Kem, Olonets and Kola

With Ingermanland, Neva and Ladoga.

These division makes enough sense from a russian perspective aswell

I'm not sure about this division. Karelia was divided a few different ways between Sweden/Novgorod/Finland/Russia.

For Finland:
The remaining Finland also got too many provinces, Åland*, Åbo, Björneborg, Tavastaland, Savolax, Nyland and Kymenegård

*Åland, while histroically always finish speaking, has been administered together with Åbo/finland since the middle ages. While it's not crucial if it's part of svealand or norrland I put it here for now

I feel however I end up suggesting splitting Finland area, there is a level of arbitariness, so there could be other ways, but I'm trying to minimize the amount of areas (more areas always bad, especially in low development parts of the world)

I would take that Western Karelia province I suggested and move Savolax and Kymenegård to it, while keeping the rest as Finland.

I think you meant Åland is swedish
Yeah, we've got to split Finland, but I wouldn't favor this solution.

Alternatively, there could be an area corresponding to the duchy of Finland

Björneborg, Åbo and Åland

That would lead to the creation of one central finnish area, Tavastaland, Nyland, Savolax and Kymenegård, which would be naed Central Finland or Tavastia
It has some historical poetry, as traditionaly what would become finland started out as Suomi (finns proper) Häme (tavastians) and Karjala (Karelians), it is possible that people to some extent thought like that, as in swedish traditions finland was annexed through three crusaders, one to each of those areas

I was considering it too, but I wasn't sure about adding Åland. Thanks for the suggestion, it looks just fine

 

[AirikrStrife]

I think you meant Åland is swedish

Haha yes obviously

no Gästrikland province,

It's low priority, you have suggested many swedish provinces, aside form the onens in Norrland, all all of them have higher priority than Gästrikland, I would say.

I don't agree on that. While it got slavicized quite early, it was part of the Sami lands, so I think it's right in the Laponia area.

Kola already were firmly within Novgorod territories, there were some minor attempts at claiming Kola during the times of trouble. Here I'm looking more to a political division, than to an ethnographic one.

I'm not sure about this division. Karelia was divided a few different ways between Sweden/Novgorod/Finland/Russia.

Typically the area west and south of lake Ladoga were administered together, and the areas east of it were administered in other ways.

Including russian Vyborg Governate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg_Governorate

Though there existed many ways to administer the northwestern corner of russia.

 

[Entrone]

Typically the area west and south of lake Ladoga were administered together, and the areas east of it were administered in other ways.

Including russian Vyborg Governate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg_Governorate

Though there existed many ways to administer the northwestern corner of russia.

As I see that Governorate was based on the recently conquered lands. I feel like dividing Karelia to three states, just to distinguish Swedish and Russian part, should be a mistake.
The role of a state is not to split it exactly how it was for 150 years, but to represent a cultural/geographical area, and let's see what you can get of it.
I think Karelia should be divided just into North and South, these are more aesthetic states, and they will do for now.

Kola already were firmly within Novgorod territories, there were some minor attempts at claiming Kola during the times of trouble. Here I'm looking more to a political division, than to an ethnographic one.

Looking from now to Kola, it may look like it's part of Russia and always have been. But in the 15th century I think your ancestors would be glad to conquer it Just like Finland was a contested area between Sweden and Novgorod. So in this case i prefer the ethnographic and geographic arguements.

"Later skirmishes were more sporadic. Sweden's attempts to control the Gulf of Bothnia provoked Novgorod to start construction of a castle near the Oulu River delta in the 1370s. Sweden replied by establishing their own castlenearby. Novgorod assaulted it in 1377, but was unable to take it. In the following year, Pope Gregory XI intervened and issued a crusade bull against Novgorod. Soon afterwards the Russians retreated from Ostrobothnia, leaving it for the Swedes."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Novgorodian_Wars

 

[AirikrStrife]

As I see that Governorate was based on the recently conquered lands. I feel like dividing Karelia to three states, just to distinguish Swedish and Russian part,

two states, ingria is not karelia,

In the 1330s, the Novgorod Republic gave the castle of Korela (and practically the entire Votian fifth, including the forts of Oreshek and Ladoga), to duke Narimantas of Lithuania. In 1383 Korela, Oreshek and Koporye were inherited by Narimantas' son, Patrikas, the forefather of the Galitzine princely clan

Etnographically Viborg is closer to the rest of finland then to Karelia, as it's catholic and been under swedish administration, the culture there is finnish not karelian.

Southern Karelia stretching to include the area of Ingermanland, Ladoga and Olonets is really odd to me, as Viborg, etnographically and geographically it makes less sense, the land on the western side of Ladoga was much heavier contested, settled and politically incorporated. Meanwhile eastern Karelia were still largely thinly populated forests.

But in the 15th century I think your ancestors would be glad to conquer it

Not as glad as they would have been to conquer Novgorod or Archangelsk.

I recently read a book about the swedish era in the eastern batlics which covers both history and sort of ideology of the conquest and administration, and while swedes had an interest in getting an ice sea port, they wanted to conquer archangelsk and then sort of let Kola fall within swedish territory, the province were to remote for effective administration at that time. ANd most wars against russia were primarily fought around gulf of finland,

 

[Entrone]

Hehe, I think I found the suggestion you made a bit more than a year ago on this topic
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ndic-nordic-patch-general-suggestion.1046616/
"Just a few, cheap ones I'd like to see to break up some of the chunks and make it look and feel a little better like adding Härjedalen (split form Jämtland), Gästrikland (split form Helsingland). Possibly also splitting Ångermanland (from Helsingland) and Norrbotten (from västerbotten and Rovaniemi)."
Since that you turned more conservative about a 3 province Halsingland, as I see
But there's no problem, the development have to happen in small steps, right now I'm satisfied with the 5 new provinces for Sweden (out of that 1 in Finland)

two states, ingria is not karelia,



Etnographically Viborg is closer to the rest of finland then to Karelia, as it's catholic and been under swedish administration, the culture there is finnish not karelian.

Southern Karelia stretching to include the area of Ingermanland, Ladoga and Olonets is really odd to me, as Viborg, etnographically and geographically it makes less sense, the land on the western side of Ladoga was much heavier contested, settled and politically incorporated. Meanwhile eastern Karelia were still largely thinly populated forests.

Well, since Ingria originally means only Ingermanland and Neva provnces, your proposed Ingria state wouldn't be accurate with Ladoga. Besides this area would be ridiculously small compared to the surrounding states, aswell as your Western Karelia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria
The other name for Southern Karelia could be simply "Ladoga", but that Ingermanland province ruins it aswell

" It's been claimed that Vyborg appeared in the 11th–12th centuries as a mixed Karelian-Russian settlement,[2] although there isn't archeological proof of any East Slavic settlement of that time in the area[17] and it isn't mentioned in any earliest historical documents, such as the Novgorod First Chronicle or the Primary Chronicle. Wider settlement in the area of Vyborg is generally regarded to date from 13th century onwards when Hanseatic traders began traveling to Novgorod."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg

So, keeping these in mind I wouldn't meddle into the Karelian states, expect moving the obvious White Karelia to Northern Karelia.

Not as glad as they would have been to conquer Novgorod or Archangelsk.

I recently read a book about the swedish era in the eastern batlics which covers both history and sort of ideology of the conquest and administration, and while swedes had an interest in getting an ice sea port, they wanted to conquer archangelsk and then sort of let Kola fall within swedish territory, the province were to remote for effective administration at that time. ANd most wars against russia were primarily fought around gulf of finland,

I've added "eastern expansion" missions for Sweden and Denmark in the Miscellaneous part. Imo it originally would mean controlling provinces in Karelia/around Neva.
But Sweden's (and the united Scandinavia could also have it) missions could be extended into a second part, "Control the White Sea": Own Kola, White Karelia, Soroka, Onega, Kholmogory (Arkhangelsk) and Mezen provinces, so basically the coastline.
This could also reflect historical interests (tracing back to the Vikings), and early modern rivalisation.

 

[Entrone]

But what about
-Prussia's Pomerelia state getting one more province (Schwetz maybe)? With this, we could split the eastern third of the now pretty big Tuchel, and represent Kashubian and Prussian culture more accurate.
-Adding Hedemark (eastern part of Opplanda) to Norway? In this case Eastern Norway state would have 6 provinces, so exactly 1 more than it could be. Maybe out of Ostlandet a Sorrlandet state could be carved out?

 

[AirikrStrife]

"Just a few, cheap ones I'd like to see to break up some of the chunks and make it look and feel a little better like adding Härjedalen (split form Jämtland), Gästrikland (split form Helsingland). Possibly also splitting Ångermanland (from Helsingland) and Norrbotten (from västerbotten and Rovaniemi)."
Since that you turned more conservative about a 3 province Halsingland, as I see

People change, I've done a massive stance change over the past years form supporting linguistic based culture group to being a hardcore opponent to every proposal to introduce language groups or basing culture groups on language.

I would argue my current position has come through better research and is more accurate. When I made that proposal I hadn't studied the province history of sweden to the detail I have today especially I hadn't studied the history of northern sweden at all, something I have done during the past years

Well, since Ingria originally means only Ingermanland and Neva provnces,

These sorts of solutions are often needed in the game, and the idea of the area is not at all farfetched

To begin with Ingermanland always had an ambigious origin and definition, ingria wasn't definined the way we see it until the treaty of Stolbova in 1617 and one of the theories for the name is based on Olof Skötkonung's daughter Ingegerd who received Ladoga/Aldeigja as dowry and the area was named after her. And Ladoga was a primary goal of conquest for the swedes in the time of troubles, they maintained a 600 year old claim that Ladoga was rightful part of sweden. I'm quite sure if sweden had conquered Ladoga aswell in 1617 it would have been administered as part of Ingria.

Besides, arguing that Ladoga isn't part of Ingria, and then put it in a Karelia area (which it is even less part of) also doesn't make sense

We can also look at the muscovite administration of the conquered novgorod areas:

We can clearly see a long history of Ladoga, Ingria and western Karelia being administered in a western province, with Olonets being in the east. My main concern with your suggested areas is the placement of Olonets in a south karelia area which also includes Viborg, those areas have almost nothing with each other. If you don't want to see a new area in the region, I would suggest merging western Karelia with Ingria, which would be too many provinces if not either Ladoga or Viborg is moved away

East Karelia: Kola, Kem, Olonets

Western Karelia v1: Viborg, Korela, Priozersk

Western Karelia v2: Korela Priozersk, Ingermandland, Neva and Ladoga

Edit: If you want to keep Kola in lappland area, you could have Sororka in east karelia,

 

[Entrone]

People change, I've done a massive stance change over the past years form supporting linguistic based culture group to being a hardcore opponent to every proposal to introduce language groups or basing culture groups on language.

I would argue my current position has come through better research and is more accurate. When I made that proposal I hadn't studied the province history of sweden to the detail I have today especially I hadn't studied the history of northern sweden at all, something I have done during the past years

Of course, but I hope there's no question about a Finnic culture group? With Karelian, Estonian, Finnish and Sami, it would be awesome. At the time Karelians were hardly eastern slavic, neither the Finns or Sami resembled the Scandinavians. They were exactly accepted cultures.

These sorts of solutions are often needed in the game, and the idea of the area is not at all farfetched

To begin with Ingermanland always had an ambigious origin and definition, ingria wasn't definined the way we see it until the treaty of Stolbova in 1617 and one of the theories for the name is based on Olof Skötkonung's daughter Ingegerd who received Ladoga/Aldeigja as dowry and the area was named after her. And Ladoga was a primary goal of conquest for the swedes in the time of troubles, they maintained a 600 year old claim that Ladoga was rightful part of sweden. I'm quite sure if sweden had conquered Ladoga aswell in 1617 it would have been administered as part of Ingria.

Besides, arguing that Ladoga isn't part of Ingria, and then put it in a Karelia area (which it is even less part of) also doesn't make sense

We can also look at the muscovite administration of the conquered novgorod areas:

We can clearly see a long history of Ladoga, Ingria and western Karelia being administered in a western province, with Olonets being in the east. My main concern with your suggested areas is the placement of Olonets in a south karelia area which also includes Viborg, those areas have almost nothing with each other. If you don't want to see a new area in the region, I would suggest merging western Karelia with Ingria, which would be too many provinces if not either Ladoga or Viborg is moved away

East Karelia: Kola, Kem, Olonets

Western Karelia v1: Viborg, Korela, Priozersk

Western Karelia v2: Korela Priozersk, Ingermandland, Neva and Ladoga

Edit: If you want to keep Kola in lappland area, you could have Sororka in east karelia,

What you say there is adding a state. And dividing based on some borders that changed. I'm completely against this swedish-russian part division of a land by adding provinces that doesen't belong there, like Kola or Soroka.
But what about having the above mentioned Ingria state? Actually I started to like it, let's use it instead of South Karelia, and simply move Viborg and White Karelia to North Karelia, and rename it Karelia.
With this we barely have to bother the states at the region, yet it could fix little glithces like White Karelia province in Pomorye state.

 

[Entrone]

Prussia

So I realized that my Tilsit+Memel conception looks weird, so I merged them back, and I've added Schwetz (middle red) to the game, to split the enlargened Tuchel.
Now Kashubian culture would be perfect with Stolp, Tuchel and Bütow/Lauenburg (red on the left, name could be a question, there's already a Lauenburg, so i use Bütow).
I still think Ortelsburg could be polish, but I would NOT change Intersburg (red on the right) to lithuanian. Bbut they could get a mission for eastern prussia, at least for Memel and Intersburg (Little Lithuania).

Now Pomerelia feels perfect for me, and Eastern Prussia could get some new provinces later, as those are still pretty big, but for now I feel it could be enough.

 

[AirikrStrife]

We do disagree on a lot of things on how we want things to be represented. For me, while I'm more interested in ethnographic history, I believe political history to be more relevant in designing the game, a change which come by me in the past years aswell.

But I found your solution of one large karelia state and ingria working

Of course, but I hope there's no question about a Finnic culture group? With Karelian, Estonian, Finnish and Sami, it would be awesome. At the time Karelians were hardly eastern slavic, neither the Finns or Sami resembled the Scandinavians. They were exactly accepted cultures

I'm actually disagreeing with you here, I used to agree and even be leening towards having hungarian as part of an uralic group, but completly changed all that. Haha, I used to be very "language rules" sort of person and the more I study the less I care about languages. It's really what in people's heads what's most important. Nowadays language is popular so it is in people's head, in a post on the forum I proposed a culture group merging tajiks and uzbeks and some other turkic and iranian people, and a person of turkic extraction went on a fury about how tajiks had more in common with germans than they have with uzbeks.

But in 1444 and for centuries after that it really didn't wasn't.

To break down the finnic proposal:

Sami has about as much in common with finns as swedes do with russian, or someone very distantly related. Samis are just that group that get's to be placed with whoever they hapened to be ruled by.

Finns didn't have a distinct identity back in those days, still by the cudgel war in 1590's people in Ostrobothnia didn't consider themselves "finns". Finns were part of sweden, for as long as was relevant to anyone alive back then, it was the only political structure larger than a tribe fins had ever been part of before 1809, Finland was an integral part of the swedish realm, no independence wars, no seperatism.

Karelians were pretty much living autonomsly in vast forests, they had very little contact with finns, religion kept them seperated, when protestant finns moved into ingria they did not blend with orthodox karelians. I don't say that finns are incompatible with karelians, just that the current split works better

Estonians didn't exist as an ethnos before 18th century. There were no estonian intelligensia that made any claims to nationhood etc. Estonians wouldn't know finns as their liberators or borthers if a finnish army had arrived in 1500.

 

[Entrone]

We do disagree on a lot of things on how we want things to be represented. For me, while I'm more interested in ethnographic history, I believe political history to be more relevant in designing the game, a change which come by me in the past years aswell.

But I found your solution of one large karelia state and ingria working



I'm actually disagreeing with you here, I used to agree and even be leening towards having hungarian as part of an uralic group, but completly changed all that. Haha, I used to be very "language rules" sort of person and the more I study the less I care about languages. It's really what in people's heads what's most important. Nowadays language is popular so it is in people's head, in a post on the forum I proposed a culture group merging tajiks and uzbeks and some other turkic and iranian people, and a person of turkic extraction went on a fury about how tajiks had more in common with germans than they have with uzbeks.

But in 1444 and for centuries after that it really didn't wasn't.

To break down the finnic proposal:

Sami has about as much in common with finns as swedes do with russian, or someone very distantly related. Samis are just that group that get's to be placed with whoever they hapened to be ruled by.

Finns didn't have a distinct identity back in those days, still by the cudgel war in 1590's people in Ostrobothnia didn't consider themselves "finns". Finns were part of sweden, for as long as was relevant to anyone alive back then, it was the only political structure larger than a tribe fins had ever been part of before 1809, Finland was an integral part of the swedish realm, no independence wars, no seperatism.

Karelians were pretty much living autonomsly in vast forests, they had very little contact with finns, religion kept them seperated, when protestant finns moved into ingria they did not blend with orthodox karelians. I don't say that finns are incompatible with karelians, just that the current split works better

Estonians didn't exist as an ethnos before 18th century. There were no estonian intelligensia that made any claims to nationhood etc. Estonians wouldn't know finns as their liberators or borthers if a finnish army had arrived in 1500.

I'm glad we agree on Karelia

Of course, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying let's just represent the map based on linguistic and ethnic stuff.
While, including the Hungarians would be lame, the finnic group makes sense.
The Sami, despite their ancient lands being divided between the mentioned countries, are definately Finnic, just look at a few pictures about them.
Finns were just one tribe, probably the westernmost at the time of Swedish contacts, so their name and customs spread.
Saying religion kept them separated, I don't think it's an arguement as, religion back in those days were of course much more important, but there's a representation for that, so there's place for cultures.
That Estonians didn't have a strong ethnic noble or burgher class, didn't mean they were not Estonians.

In this era, Finnic nations has just recently been conquered, they still had their ancient customs, probably including religion.
As you said, in peoples head, back then allegiance, religion, class were more important than ethnicity or language. But behind the religious divisions, experienced across europe, often exactly the cultural differencies were the severe. One could argue: it's not, "what was in peoplas head", it's "what they were talking about".
The ruling class was very multilingual in most of Europe, in Central-Eastern Europe probably even more. Even lower classes often spoke two language in these areas: native and (at least a level of) German/Russian (maybe Polish, Hungarian also in this timeline, not to mention Latin). Now, Germans and Russians both, when got control over an area of the "Intermarium", or Central Europe, usually kept the ruling class who was willig to serve them. This ended up in a little part of the population getiing germanized/slavicized over time. Especially in Central Europe, before national awakenings, it was common for a country's "intelligentsia" to rather write in Latin, later German. Now this doesen't mean that those parts were just as *german, swedish, russian, as any other part of the country. As you go towards wilder, and later civilized areas, north and east, you will find less and less written "evidences", thus the communities' memory was "shorter". They didn't wrote books, especially not in their own language, so we know much less about their past, but this doesen't make these cultures less outstanding.
As I mentioned, they just have been conquered, so at the time they weren't germanicized/slavicized at all. They need their own culture group, they are not Scandinavian or Russian. They may have become until now, but not in 1444.

 

[qweyt]

I'm actually disagreeing with you here, I used to agree and even be leening towards having hungarian as part of an uralic group, but completly changed all that. Haha, I used to be very "language rules" sort of person and the more I study the less I care about languages. It's really what in people's heads what's most important. Nowadays language is popular so it is in people's head, in a post on the forum I proposed a culture group merging tajiks and uzbeks and some other turkic and iranian people, and a person of turkic extraction went on a fury about how tajiks had more in common with germans than they have with uzbeks.

But in 1444 and for centuries after that it really didn't wasn't.

To break down the finnic proposal:

Sami has about as much in common with finns as swedes do with russian, or someone very distantly related. Samis are just that group that get's to be placed with whoever they hapened to be ruled by.

Finns didn't have a distinct identity back in those days, still by the cudgel war in 1590's people in Ostrobothnia didn't consider themselves "finns". Finns were part of sweden, for as long as was relevant to anyone alive back then, it was the only political structure larger than a tribe fins had ever been part of before 1809, Finland was an integral part of the swedish realm, no independence wars, no seperatism.

Karelians were pretty much living autonomsly in vast forests, they had very little contact with finns, religion kept them seperated, when protestant finns moved into ingria they did not blend with orthodox karelians. I don't say that finns are incompatible with karelians, just that the current split works better

Estonians didn't exist as an ethnos before 18th century. There were no estonian intelligensia that made any claims to nationhood etc. Estonians wouldn't know finns as their liberators or borthers if a finnish army had arrived in 1500.

You are right that there was no Finnish identity in 1444 and Finland was divided into several small, but relatively similar cultures. The people in Satakunta were quite similar to Tavastians, who were quite similar to Savonians who were quite similar to Karelians. It's true that Karelians had little contact with the Finns on the western coast, but saying they had no contact with Finns as a whole is not correct. Karelians had plenty of contact and were quite similar to the Finns in Savonia and these two being in different culture groups is just simply incorrect. The Finnish cultures were a continuum with no hard lines at any point. This is unfortunately something that the current culture system can't represent well, but I still think that having Finnish and Karelian in the same culture group would be the best representation of the historical situation.

Having Finnish be in the same culture group as Swedish is not a bad thing. You are right that Finland was an integral part of Sweden and there was no separatism to speak of during the game's timeline. However, this is all something that can be perfectly represented by the accepted cultures mechanic, so I don't see it necessary to have them be in the same culture group.

 

[Thaif]

There were and still are local cultural traditions in Finland relating to language(murteet or dialects, these used to be much more defined before modern day. There's many jokes and jests about these "cultural differences" among Finns.
"When a Savonian speaks, responsibility is on the listener". Flows better in Finnish, but still.
I myself speak the "Karelian" dialect which is not to be confused with the Karelian language though I can somewhat understand it.

It's pretty interesting following the conversation since I agree and disagree with points made but the conversation itself is productive. While there wasn't a "national consciousness" among Finns until the 19th century both Finns and Swedes made distinctions on this.
Ultimately the largest divider was class(Noble, Clergy, Burgher and Peasant) and for a Finnish peasant also language; since Swedish was the administrative language, learning it was essential for any higher echelons of society. Finnish Clergy naturally spoke both and Latin.
Prior to the Åbo bloodbath Finnish nobles(who spoke Swedish) had plenty influence in the state apparatus especially when it came to Finland, since their family estates and holding were there, and sometimes rose to important positions like Arvid Horn(who was ethnically Finnish).

Still: an ethnically Finnish, Swedish speaking noble was in practice Swedish and over time essentially became Swedish. Later in the 19th century these distinctions would play a role in the Fennoman and Swecoman moments relating to the "language question" debate.

When it comes to the Karelians, the dividing line is blurry, but one natural border does exist; The River Vuoksi. Both practically since the river is notoriously difficult to cross and culturally the Russian sphere had significant effect on Karelians who took to Orthodox Christianity pretty firmly(albeit with paganistic influences, some of which carried over to today).

Both sides, Finns and Karelians, had other loyalties and influences that divided them between Sweden(Finns) and the Russian states(Karelians) up until the 19th century. When there was conflict on the Karelian isthmus both sides practiced vicious partisan tactics and outright lynching towards each other. This was made worse by the fact that militias tended to act on their own during these conflicts and were often not commanded by officers unless in battle.

Long story short; There were distinctions where it came to Finns and Swedes, but ultimately everyone considered themselves Swedish, or to be accurate "Loyal subjects of the Swedish Crown".

Oh and Karelians are stereotyped as fast and long winded talkers, among other things. I feel like I represent this all too well at times. Oh well carry on.

 

[Entrone]

You are right that there was no Finnish identity in 1444 and Finland was divided into several small, but relatively similar cultures. The people in Satakunta were quite similar to Tavastians, who were quite similar to Savonians who were quite similar to Karelians. It's true that Karelians had little contact with the Finns on the western coast, but saying they had no contact with Finns as a whole is not correct. Karelians had plenty of contact and were quite similar to the Finns in Savonia and these two being in different culture groups is just simply incorrect. The Finnish cultures were a continuum with no hard lines at any point. This is unfortunately something that the current culture system can't represent well, but I still think that having Finnish and Karelian in the same culture group would be the best representation of the historical situation.

Having Finnish be in the same culture group as Swedish is not a bad thing. You are right that Finland was an integral part of Sweden and there was no separatism to speak of during the game's timeline. However, this is all something that can be perfectly represented by the accepted cultures mechanic, so I don't see it necessary to have them be in the same culture group.

There were and still are local cultural traditions in Finland relating to language(murteet or dialects, these used to be much more defined before modern day. There's many jokes and jests about these "cultural differences" among Finns.
"When a Savonian speaks, responsibility is on the listener". Flows better in Finnish, but still.
I myself speak the "Karelian" dialect which is not to be confused with the Karelian language though I can somewhat understand it.

It's pretty interesting following the conversation since I agree and disagree with points made but the conversation itself is productive. While there wasn't a "national consciousness" among Finns until the 19th century both Finns and Swedes made distinctions on this.
Ultimately the largest divider was class(Noble, Clergy, Burgher and Peasant) and for a Finnish peasant also language; since Swedish was the administrative language, learning it was essential for any higher echelons of society. Finnish Clergy naturally spoke both and Latin.
Prior to the Åbo bloodbath Finnish nobles(who spoke Swedish) had plenty influence in the state apparatus especially when it came to Finland, since their family estates and holding were there, and sometimes rose to important positions like Arvid Horn(who was ethnically Finnish).

Still: an ethnically Finnish, Swedish speaking noble was in practice Swedish and over time essentially became Swedish. Later in the 19th century these distinctions would play a role in the Fennoman and Swecoman moments relating to the "language question" debate.

When it comes to the Karelians, the dividing line is blurry, but one natural border does exist; The River Vuoksi. Both practically since the river is notoriously difficult to cross and culturally the Russian sphere had significant effect on Karelians who took to Orthodox Christianity pretty firmly(albeit with paganistic influences, some of which carried over to today).

Both sides, Finns and Karelians, had other loyalties and influences that divided them between Sweden(Finns) and the Russian states(Karelians) up until the 19th century. When there was conflict on the Karelian isthmus both sides practiced vicious partisan tactics and outright lynching towards each other. This was made worse by the fact that militias tended to act on their own during these conflicts and were often not commanded by officers unless in battle.

Long story short; There were distinctions where it came to Finns and Swedes, but ultimately everyone considered themselves Swedish, or to be accurate "Loyal subjects of the Swedish Crown".

Oh and Karelians are stereotyped as fast and long winded talkers, among other things. I feel like I represent this all too well at times. Oh well carry on.

Thank you for your comments guys, I honestly think you added precious informations to the thread

Having Finnish be in the same culture group as Swedish is not a bad thing. You are right that Finland was an integral part of Sweden and there was no separatism to speak of during the game's timeline. However, this is all something that can be perfectly represented by the accepted cultures mechanic, so I don't see it necessary to have them be in the same culture group.

This could be the long story in short, and regarding this "loyal subject of the swedish crown", before someone misinterprets it:
As we mentioned allegiance was probably more important back then, than ethnicity or language, for example we could see examples where the same ethnicity warred over which authority should they accept. Around the start of the game they had distinct culture, the Baltic, Finnic, Slavic and other tribes just had to face the world is changign and they lagged behind.
So one after an other, despite several rebellions, they all had to accept it, and with that, foreign feudal lords. But this is not a base, not to represent these cultures. Of course, we can't just depict every tribe, but I feel like, when it's possible to add a culture (like Kashubian), or we can form a better culture group (in this case), we should do this.
Right now, as Finnish and Sami is in scandinavian, Karelian is in russian, Estonian in baltic, it's like if Czecz and Silesian was in German, Slovakian in Carpathian, and Polish in Russian culture group.
Because history would tell us to use it, but yet, it would be less correct.