New provinces to Northern Europe

[Entrone]

Hello guys!
Welcome to my suggestion of reworking, perfecting Northern Europe
As the feedbacks are looking positive, i will try to polish this suggestion, so when the time comes we will have a nice rework for the region.

Table of contents:
I. Map changes:

1. Scotland
2. Scandinavia
3. Bothnia and Finland
4. Karelia
5. Baltic
6. Prussia

II. Miscellaneous (under development)

1. Events
2. Missions
3. National Ideas

I. Map Changes

1. Scotland

While Scotland got a buff recently, it still feels lacking. England usually easily conquer it until 1500 in one or two wars. So i propose to give more strength and detail to the lowland parts, by dividing it into Central Lowlands and Aberdeen states.

New provinces (capital): trade good, terrain
Moray (Elgin): fish, highland <--- North of Aberdeen.
Angus/Forfar (Dundee): wool/cloth, farmland/highland <---South of Aberdeen.
Lanark (Glasgow): iron, farmland <---Between Lothian and Ayrshire, so you can't move directly between them.
Fife (St. Andrews): livestock, grassland <--- Small, yet important.
Durham (Durham): iron/grain?, grassland <--- South of Northumbria, not part of it.

Minor corrections:
-Put the island of Bute to Argyll province, as it's not even part of the Hebrides.
-Norway could have some missions, regarding the Isles, as it was colonised by them and ruled until 1266.
-Move the CoT from Ayrshire to Lanark (Maybe also the coal, as it was mined in both places, see sources).
-Change the terrain of Argyll, Perth and Aberdeen to Highland from Hills, Change Inverness to Mountains from Highland.
-Move the coal from Northumbria to Durham.
-New Aberdeen state: Aberdeen, Moray, Angus/Forfar.
-Border fixed for Argyll, Perth, Inverness.

Sources:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/sct_cmap.gif
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Palatine_of_Durham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanarkshire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus,_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee
http://www.wwmm.org/immagini/z_1716.jpg


2. Scandinavia

Scandinavia is one of the best regions in the game, yet it needs a few provinces to be perfect. For example the enormous capital provinces. Besides Sweden is lacking the might to carry out it's historical role, and be a decent rival for Russia or Poland in it's own. So they would need at least a slight buff.

New provinces (capital): trade good
Buskerud (Tonsberg): fur <--- Western half of Akerhus, that was separated from it in the 17th century.
Hedemark (Kongsvinger): naval sup/fur <---- Eastern half of Opplanda.
Roskilde (Roskilde): naval supp/livestock <--- Capital of Denmark until 1443
Jönköping (Jönköping): livestock <--- Maybe a lvl1 CoT, as it was an important market town
Södermanland (Nyköping): fish/livestock <--- Southern part of current Stockholm
Uppland (Uppsala): grain <--- It was the center of the Archdiocese of Sweden

Minor changes:
-Rename the existing Tioharad province to Kronoberg, and change it's tradegood into grain (or maybe livestock)
-Rename Östergotland to Linköping, because that's the state's name.
-There could be an event for the founding of Gothenburg.
-The strait's danish end should be in Copenhagen province, not Roskilde.
-Now there's enough provinces for a decent Östra Svealand with Södermanland, Uppland, Stockholm and maybe Aland, so Bergslagen can be moved to Vastra Svealand state where it does belong.
-Sea tiles slightly redrawn to represen the Öresund better.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jönköping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buskerud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gothenburg


3. Bothnia and Finland

While the map projection shows this area a lot larger than it is really, some provinces are still awfully big (especially Halsingland, compared to being relatively on the south). Besides, Finnish provinces with this little polish perfectly reflect the area at the time. Red dots are the capitals of the -
New provinces (capital): trade good
Angermanland (Härnösand): fish <---Northern part of current Halsingland.
Kymmenegard (Heinola/Pyttis): fish <---Carved out of Savolax, Nyland and Viborg, alternative name Kymmenedalen.

Minor changes:
-Norrland state: Västerbotten, Angermanland, and Halsingland.
-Lappland and Jokkmokk to Laponia state.
-Ostrobothnia/Österbotten state and Enare redrawn.
-Birkaland merged with the northern part of Åbo to form Björneborg/Satakunda province (Ulsby).
-Finland Proper/Western Finland state: Åland, Satakunda, Åbo.
-The new Tavastia/Central Finland state: Nyland, Tavastland, Savolax, Kymmenegard.
-The region also lacks center of trades. Potential lvl1 CoTs: Åbo, Viborg.
-There could be an event in the 17th century for Sweden for the founding the town of Vaasa in Österbotten.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ångermanland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gävle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satakunta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turku


4. Karelia

There's the updated Karelia. You can see the new province in Finland, Kymmenegard.
So while thinking about possigle Karelian states, I realized that this also bothered me somewhat. And it's the extension of Karelian culture. And when I was looking for material I found that my new province is not just more aesthetic, but also historical. It helps to correct the Novgorod-Beloozero boerder. So the province:
Vytegra (Vytegra): fish, woods, novgorodian, to Beloozero state.

Minor changes:
-Laponia state: Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola.
-Karelia state: Viborg, Karelen, Priozhersk/Kexholm, White Karelia, Olonets.
-Ingria state: Ingermanland, Neva, Ladoga.
-Change Ingermanland to Karelian culture. I would also like a Finnic culture group with Sapmi, Finnish, Karelian, and Estonian.
-Make Karelian an accepted culture of Novgorod, as they were allies against the Swedes.
-Fixed the border of White Karelia, Enare, Kola and Kajanaland. The grey line is the original border of Kola and White Karelia.
-Ladoga's capital should be Staraya Ladoga (it's viking name Aldeigjuborg could be used by germanic nations).

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytegra
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/25/3c/ae253cf2eefb09e12aee7208b03f658a.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Novgorodian_Wars


5. Baltic

As it's already powerful neighbours, the russians and the polish got an update recently, the Livonian Order is in the dire situation at the start of the game. This could be eased somewhat by updating it's terribly outdated map. With green the capital of new provinces.

4 new provinces for Estonia:
Wiek/Laane (Hapsal/Haapsalu): fish <---There was the Bishopric of Wiek.
Pernau/Pärnu (same): naval supplies <--- Important town (possible lvl1 CoT), western part of Fellin.
Fellin/Viljandi (same): livestock <---The strongest castle of the Order.
Wesenberg/Rakvere: (same): grain <--- Quite important town, western half of Narwa.
and 2 for Latvia:
Windau/Ventspils (same): naval supplies <--- Was the main port of the Duchy of Courland.
Selburg/Selonia? (Selburg): livestock <---Carved out from Lettgallen and Mitau to represent Courland better.
(We could merge back the new Wesenberg province to Reval and Narwa, and unite Fellin and Pernau for a more conservative version, but we would still need to add a state, so if it has to be done, do it well.)

Minor changes:
-Change the trade good of Riga to something more prestigious, like cloth, and raise CoT to lvl2.
-Give Reval a lvl1 CoT and change trade good to salt? Change the trade good of Narwa to fish.
-Possible releasable tags: Bishopric of Dorpat, Bishopric of Wiek (Ösel-Wiek, claim on Ösel?).
-Estonia state: Ösel, Wiek, Reval, Wesenberg, Narwa.
-Livonia state: Dorpat, Fellin, Pernau, Wolmar.
-Courland state: Goldingen, Windau, Mitau, Selburg.
-And the new Vidzeme/Latgalia/Wenden state: Riga, Wenden, Dünaburg.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakvere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pärnu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viljandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_regions_of_Latvia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenden_Voivodeship
http://www.mois.ee/kaart/kaart_eesti_eng.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...1260.svg/2000px-Medieval_Livonia_1260.svg.png


6. Prussia

As I checked the neighbouring regions I realized Prussia definately belongs to this thread, so I decided to include it in my suggestion. Their main rival, Poland, and Lithuania got an update recently, with a new event, which led the Teutons in a dire situation. Not to mention the Baltic region right now is only 26 province, that's less than half of some other regions. And right next to the (likely soon updated) HRE, Prussia's provinces are enormous. With these changes we could not just represent the region historically more accurate, but also alleviate Prussia's problems. All we have to do is resurrecting the Pomerelia state, and add 3 provinces.
Let me introduce you the possible new provinces:
-Bütow (Lauenburg/Bütow): naval supplies, grassland, pomeranian/kashubian <--- Lauenburg and Bütow had been part of both Pomerania and the Teuton lands.
-Schwetz (same): livestock, grassland, prussian <---One of the oldest towns in the region, added by splitting Tuchel, better representing cultures (Swiecie in polish).
-Intersburg (same): grain, woods, prussian <--- Probably the biggest town in Eastern Prussia after Königsberg.

Minor corrections:
-Revive Pomerelia state: Danzig, Tuchel, Bütow, Schwetz
-West Prussia state: Marienburg, Ermland, Osterode, and maybe Kulm (which is currently in Kuyavia).
-East Prussia state: Königsberg, Intersburg, Ortelsburg, Memel.
-Ortelsburg could have Polish culture.
-Stolp, Bütow, and Tuchel could be Kashubian (West Slavic) culture. With this we could reflect the slavic presence at the region.
-Maybe lvl1 CoT for Kulm?
-Redrawn several provinces to fix borders.

Sources:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Polska_1386_-_1434.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Teutonic_Order_1410-es.svg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/K0nigl+BherzoglPreussen_en.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...huania_-_Geographicus_-_Prussia-cary-1799.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świecie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenburg_and_Bütow_Land
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Netzedistrict1786.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians
http://en.kaszubia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/16401.png


So in total these changes would give 4 new provinces to Scotland, 1 to England, Denmark, Norway, and Novgorod, 3 to Teutonic Order, 5 to Sweden and 6 to Livonian Order.
Thank you for your attention and feel free to add something to the topic

II. Miscellaneous (Under development!)
1. Events.
-Founding the town of Vaasa
-Founding the town of Gothenburg
-Gotland pirate nation on ruler death.
2. Missions
-Hebrides for Norway.
-Estonia for Sweden.
-Colonial mission's for Denmark (Caribbean, Gold Coast, maybe even India -Frederiksøerne, Tranquebar)
-Eastern expansion for Sweden and Denmark.
3. National ideas

Previous similar suggestions:
Minor redraw of Sea provinces around Bornholm: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/borders-of-southern-baltic-sea.1035316/ by TheDungen
Baltic patch general stuff: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ndic-nordic-patch-general-suggestion.1046616/ by AirikrStrife
Improvements to Livonia: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-changes-in-baltic-sea.1003803/ by Nikita Dirigable
Scotland: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ce-glasgow-or-strathclyde-to-scotland.979713/ by gronak

(Changelog:
- Updated Bothnia and Finland: New province: Kymmenegard, merged Satakunda with Birkaland, reworked Bothnia.
- Updated the Baltic: Merged Rositten&Dünaburg, Wenden stays united, reworked states.
- Added Karelia: New province: Vytegra, reworked states around Karelia
- Updated Scotland: Changed Lanark, now it has a port, not Perth.
- Added Prussia: New provinces: Bütow, Insterburg, Tilsit. Revive Pomerelia state.
- Updated Bothnia: Gastrikland merged back to Halsingland, reworked states.
- Updated Prussia: New province: Schwetz, Tilsit merged back to Memel.
- Updated Scandinavia: New province: Hedemark. Vestfold removed. Sea tiles slightly redrawn.
Thanks to AirikrStrife, gronak, and qweyt for the suggestions. )

 

[AirikrStrife]

The claim on whole England sounds a bit exagerrated, but there could be missions to control the Hebrides, Isle of Man, and a few cities like Cork, Dublin, Lancaster.

If we get spain style mission tress it would work, but Norway is highely unlikely to get such a large mission tree; each scandinavian nation should get their own tree,

I made this a while ago, https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/scandinavian-mission-trees.1085530/
it's a good base for most countries in the region as a compliment to the generic tree, for denmark and sweden I think it could be appropriate to get wholly unique mission trees. I would exclude the possibility of a scandinavian mission tree that could for example include claims on England.

And I don't think we want things like this in Northern Europe. Stick to a tribal nation imo

Definitly no empty provinces in europe, and all of the russian north were within Novgorod/Muscovite control, if it's one province to be empty at 1444 it's Enare, but even that were within tax territory from other people.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, regarding Kola, but I don't think the devs would like to make this region so dense.

I agree, splitting Kola in two is good, but three looks a bit too much, population is extremely thin spread in these areas, But I could see White Karelia split in two but using a little bit of other perimeters

. I still support a simple Finnic group

I'm still against this, but I have a new idea how to partly solve the issue. Devs have talked about new mechanics for mission rewards and encouraged creative suggestion. Just yesterday I came with the idea to have permanently accepted cultures (which doesn't fill a culture slot) as a reward. Say Finland has a mission to own all Karelia cultured provinces, once they succed with the mission, they get Karelian as an accepted culture at no cost and without taking up a slot.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I'm in the mind of proposing a new "Sweden patch" thread, taking maps from this thread,

looking over NI's ideas as I started doing in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/can-we-have-better-danish-nis.1085381/

Designing missions (just drew up a new swedish mission tree, which with some polishment could be really good (does anyone know how to easily do mission in a computer program?)

And using some of the suggestions from my previous thread on the matter: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ndic-nordic-patch-general-suggestion.1046616/ (but less all over the place vague ideas, and focused on being a sweden/scandinavia patch and not an IP)

 

[Thaif]

I find it an interesting idea, but then I would rather add them as a tribal nation
Besides, then most of Northern Russia could be emptied to have it colonized, good example how Vytegra was founded 50 years after 1444.
And I don't think we want things like this in Northern Europe. Stick to a tribal nation imo.

I seem to have given the wrong impression. To clarify; I used the uncolonised provinces as a comparison/contrast to how a village like Kantalahti could be incorporated as a province capital of a province, were such a province to be made.
I find that the autonomy mechanic is great at simulating the level of control and integration the area of Kola and Kantalahti had at the start of the game.
70-90 % autonomy would be adequate for provinces in this region for the 1444 start.
A similar method could be used on some of the current Nenetsian Wasteland were it to be made into provinces. The rest would be uncolonised.

 

[AirikrStrife]

I seem to have given the wrong impression. To clarify; I used the uncolonised provinces as a comparison/contrast to how a village like Kantalahti could be incorporated as a province capital of a province, were such a province to be made.
I find that the autonomy mechanic is great at simulating the level of control and integration the area of Kola and Kantalahti had at the start of the game.
70-90 % autonomy would be adequate for provinces in this region for the 1444 start.
A similar method could be used on some of the current Nenetsian Wasteland were it to be made into provinces. The rest would be uncolonised.

I'm still not sure I get it; do you mean to suggest using names of not yet founded cities/villages in proposed provinces?

 

[Thaif]

Pretty sure Kantalahti was around in 1444 and yes; Kantalahti could/would be the both a province name and the "capital" of the province. It's a different discussion whether there should be a division of Kola peninsula to more than 2 provinces.
Ideally, to me at least, there'd be a province between Viena or Eastern Karelia and Kola Peninsula to mark the shift from the Taiga forest zone to the Tundra zone of Kola and the division of Sami, Karelian and later Russian cultures.

 

[Nykyus]

You can enter the following villages:
Siyit Saami (they are named mainly by the lakes where they lived):
1) Nyavdem,
2) Paza,
3) Pechenga,
4) Mot,
5) Songela,
6) Notozero (Not Lake) - in Sami Njuohttejávri
7) Babin (in Sami Akhkel),
8) Ek Island,
9) Maselga,
10) Munomash or Kildin,
11) Voronezh (in Saami Cordag-Siyt),
12) Noretsk / Noren (later Seven Islands),
13) Nohkuy,
14) Lovozero (in Sami Lujavvir),
15) Koldon,
16) Churo Lake,
17) Yokanga,
18) Kamensk (today the Saami village of Chalmny ‑ Varre is 8 km away),
19) Tulvan
20) Lundan
21) Purnach,
22) Orvozer,
23) Kovda,
24) Ruga,
25) Pääjärvi,
26) Tiikšenjärvi,
27) Elet,
Pomorian parishes and villages:
28) Keret,
29) Kovda
30) Knyazilht's Prince’s lip,
31) Kandalaksha,
32) Pore lip,
33) Umba
34) Varzuga
35) Strelno,
36) Ponoy,
37) Kola

Green - Konchan Lop,
Orange - Ter Lop,
Light green - Leshaya or Wild Lop. From the word: Leshiy - the spirit of the forest in the mythology of the Eastern Slavs

Spoiler: Leshiy

I translate part of the text from here https://lubimeg.blogspot.com/2014/03/blog-post.html
The Saami of Northern Karelia ("Leshaya lop") were systematically displaced to the Kola Peninsula by Finnish and Karelian settlers, leaving them with fewer and fewer fish-rich lakes and rivers.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, two Lappish shaman from Akont-lucky (Babya Guba) cured a Moscow Prince of a deadly disease and as a reward received near the area they inhabited, the right of exclusive fisheries and animal husbandry. Legend adds that the Finnish border residents killed the Lappish and appropriated their possessions, although the Lappish were ready to give them their rights without resistance.
The constant wars between Russia and Sweden forced the Karelian population to leave the lake Ladoga area and to resettle in more peaceful forests in the North in the vicinity of Topozero, Pyaozero and lake paanajärvi. So kind of Sirkeinen (Sergeeva) moved to paanajärvi from Kostomuksha.
Until the XVII century the area of Kuusamo (modern Finland) was inhabited by semi-nomadic Sami. In the cold season they lived in the villages of Maanselkä and Kitka.
In the middle of the XVIII century. in North Karelia, there existed two Lopar pogosts (siyts) - Orvezer on the river Tumcha, West of Kovdozero, and Pyaozersk (Pääjärvi), in the South-Eastern tip of lake Rukajärvi.
Until 1606 the Sami lands were devoted. In Lapland the collected tribute of berkely the Swedish king, the king of the Norwegian king and the bailiffs of the Russian Tsar. The centers of collecting tribute in Russian Lapland were Varzuga and Kandalaksha. Even at the time of Alexander Nevsky and later - Ivan III, were clearly spelled out instructions for collecting tribute. The toboggan routes shown on the map of the Russian North correspond to the winter trade routes to the Sami lands. Back in the IX-XII centuries Corella involved the Sami in the European fur trade, which led to the creation of large winter villages - churchyards. In the pogosts was collected tribute and were conducted by barter. In the area of modern Sochi is known for two sámi graveyards, this is Kolari and Foreseen. The map of Olaus Magnus to the West of Kandalaksha Bay of the White sea shows the source of the river Tanyaki represent the lake chain from the Lampela to Tenyearly

 

[Entrone]

You can enter the following villages:
...

Thanks for your contribution, but I'm not sure what's your point.
I saw your suggestion, and while I'd like to see a Finnic culture group, and corrections there, I think province density is just right. I'm not even sure about splitting Kola.
As stated above, in my version of the states, we have Laponia for the Sapmi, and Karelia (and partially Ingria, but Ingermanland rather Estonian) for Karelians. The only question should be, where to place White Karelia, but as Laponia is already 5 province state (Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola), it's settled to be part of Karelia (the culture could be Sapmi though).

 

[Nykyus]

Thanks for your contribution, but I'm not sure what's your point.
I saw your suggestion, and while I'd like to see a Finnic culture group, and corrections there, I think province density is just right. I'm not even sure about splitting Kola.
As stated above, in my version of the states, we have Laponia for the Sapmi, and Karelia (and partially Ingria, but Ingermanland rather Estonian) for Karelians. The only question should be, where to place White Karelia, but as Laponia is already 5 province state (Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola), it's settled to be part of Karelia (the culture could be Sapmi though).

Of course, you can divide them into 3 tribes: Konchan, Ter Lop, and Forest (Pagan) Lop.
In 1444, the Saami were all pagans. The Saami were baptized in 1540 after the foundation of the monastery in Kandalaksha. Only forest Sami, destroyed by Karelians in the XVIII century, remained pagans.

 

[Nykyus]

Or here's an option. But over the centuries they moved, the names changed

Spoiler: Options

 

[Nykyus]

As for the Pomorie. They should not be there in 1444.
They can be made a nation shaped like Brazil, through colonization

 

[AirikrStrife]

but as Laponia is already 5 province state (Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola)

tbh I'm still really sceptical about the Lapponia and huge Karelia state. I spent the day reading a book about how the swedish empire/conglomorate of states was shaped, and generally reading a lot about the region today.

Lapponia was at start of game still a poorly defined area, especially in terms of national boundaries, there were still cases of mutual tax territory between the three monarchies (denmark-norway, sweden, muscovy) that didn't get settled until the early 17th century. I find using the later established boundaries more practical for the game and how history came to be.

I found some interesting reading about what lands sweden came to be thought of as in maps and derivative work. Typically sweden (with some variation) at the height of it's power, were divided into seven lands, Ingria, Livonia, Gothia, Svecia, Norrland (corresponding to larger Helsingland and Jämtland), Lappland/Bottnia (corresponding to västerbotten, swedish and finnish lappland).

Etnographically lappland can also not be said to be a unit. Samis are not a coherent people, and also several historic sources make differences between different sorts of samis (such as calling maritime sami in norway for sjöfinnar (sea finns).

I would thus rather move Finmarken to Tröndelag, move Jämtland to Norrland and make a Lappland area of Jokkmokk, Lappland, Västerbotten and Enare. (Västerbotten could have it's border moved to Kemi river there it historicaly was) (I know I move a traditionally norwegian province into a swedish area, but PDX already did the same with Bohuslän which is in Västra Götaland)

For Karelia it's an itneresting question, even on how to define Karelia before modern time. Karelians as a prehistoric tribe originating in karelian isthmus is gone, thus karelians who ended up on the swedish sides are nor finns, and the karelians on the russian side are there own people. The people in Viborg are linguistically and etnographically closer to finns in Åbo then they are to Olonets Karelians.

Historically thhe boundaries of Karelia were very vague, when Johan III annexed Kexholm in 1581 (returned to russia in 1595) he took the title of Grand duke of Karelia, and sent out expeditions to actually find out how big Karelia was, as during these times getting access to the polar sea was a priority for the swedes. A politics which would last until the treaty of Stolbova (1617).
After Stolbova there were often references to swedish karelia (mainly Kexholm but also Viborg) and russian karelia "east of that". After 1743, Savolax was still occasionally refered to as Swedish Karelia.

Essentially I feel it is more accurate to have a western Karelia and eastern Karelia of sorts, main question being how to treat Kexholm and Karelia provinces, though those provinces were part of russia administered Viborg governate (the so called Old Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Finland )

From my POV, an Eastern Finland with Kymenegård, Savolax and Viborg, Kexholm and Karelia contra a russian east karelia of Olonets, White Karelia, two Kola provinces* and possibly Sororka is the best choice in terms of how these areas looked.

*Actually western Kola province could be named Mourman, this name comes from a Pomor pronounciation of 'Norman' and has been used for centuries before the city was founded, frequent on maps of the region.

 

[Entrone]

tbh I'm still really sceptical about the Lapponia and huge Karelia state.

Actually I'm not rooting strictly to those states, just try to stick to PDX version, where it's possible, adding only the most necessary and the least provinces and states. As definitions are vague here, I found your version just as acceptable as mine.

I would thus rather move Finmarken to Tröndelag, move Jämtland to Norrland and make a Lappland area of Jokkmokk, Lappland, Västerbotten and Enare. (Västerbotten could have it's border moved to Kemi river there it historicaly was) (I know I move a traditionally norwegian province into a swedish area, but PDX already did the same with Bohuslän which is in Västra Götaland)

I was playing with the thought of moving Jamtland to Norrland, or even splitting it to include Harjedalen. But as much as it looks weird right now, it feels historically correct, regarding norwegian administration.

For Karelia it's an itneresting question, even on how to define Karelia before modern time. Karelians as a prehistoric tribe originating in karelian isthmus is gone, thus karelians who ended up on the swedish sides are nor finns, and the karelians on the russian side are there own people. The people in Viborg are linguistically and etnographically closer to finns in Åbo then they are to Olonets Karelians.

Essentially I feel it is more accurate to have a western Karelia and eastern Karelia of sorts, main question being how to treat Kexholm and Karelia provinces, though those provinces were part of russia administered Viborg governate (the so called Old Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Finland )

From my POV, an Eastern Finland with Kymenegård, Savolax and Viborg, Kexholm and Karelia contra a russian east karelia of Olonets, White Karelia, two Kola provinces* and possibly Sororka is the best choice in terms of how these areas looked.

*Actually western Kola province could be named Mourman, this name comes from a Pomor pronounciation of 'Norman' and has been used for centuries before the city was founded, frequent on maps of the region.

Linguistic and ethnographic reasons are rather the consequences of centuries of Swedish rule, and Viborg's favourable position. So I wouldn't support evidence based on this, but we tickled this topic earlier.

But regarding these states, we argued about so much:
As mentioned before, I find it utterly unrespectful towards any nation or folks to divide them, based on their oppressors system, but I find your proposed 'Eastern Finland' to be a good compromise between aesthetic and balanced states, the karelians cause, and representing Finland properly (gotta admit, our previous Finland-proper state was weird). Afterall, Karelian culture is not limited to the state named after them. I would only rename that Karelen province, as it would be confusing.
I guess Western Finland in this case would contain Nyland, Tavastland, Birkaland, Abo and Aland? And Österbötten Rovaniemi, Österbotten, Kajanaland?
In this case i would leave Halsingland, Angermanland and Vasterbotten to be Vasterbotten state, and Enare, Jokkmokk, Lappland and Finnmark (but that could also move to Trondelag) as Laponia.

And if we move Soroka to Karelia, which is not without base, what will happen to Pomorye state?
About Mourman, I find it a nice solution, but quite a low priority change until 'more vivid' parts are so scarce. Nvm, If I redraw the map next time I will include it, and the devs will decide if they want it or not, in it's due time.

 

[Entrone]

So I drew a quick map depicting potential states of the region:

(It's not an accurate edit, I just quickly drew borders, the point here being the provinces' grouping.)

Detailed by region (new provinces in Italic style):

Denmark:
Roskilde added to Denmark (bigger part of Sjaelland, the eastern smaller one is Kobenhavn).

Norway:
Agder province to Vestlandet, Hedemark and Buskerud added to Ostlandet. Now both capped at 5 provinces.
I left Trondelag untouched so far, but it could switch Jamtland for Finnmark, but I prefer the current version.

Sweden:
Östra Gotaland: Kronoberg, Jönköping, Linköping, Kalmar, Gotland island.
Östra Svealand: Uppland, Södermanland, Stockholm (Aland to W. Finland, Bergslagen to Vastra Svealand).
Vasterbotten: Angermanland, Halsingland, Vasterbotten.
Laponia: Lappland, Jokkmokk, Enare, and Finnmark.

Finland:
Österbotten: Österbotten, Rovaniemi, Kajanaland.
Western Finland: Aland islands, Abo, Birkaland, Tavastland, Nyland.
Eastern Finland: Kymmenegard, Viborg, Savolax, Karelen, Kexholm.
Karelia: Olonets, Soroka, White Karelia, Kola (potentially splitting Kola).
province of Vytegra (green lines in Russia), could fill Pomorye to include 3 provinces, eventhough would fit better to Beloozero state.

Baltic:
Estonia: Ösel, Wiek, Reval, Wesenberg, Narva.
Livonia: Pernau, Fellin, Dorpat, Wolmar.
Latgalia: Riga, Wenden, Dünaburg.
Courland: Goldingen, Windau, Mitau, Selburg.

 

[AirikrStrife]

Linguistic and ethnographic reasons are rather the consequences of centuries of Swedish rule

It is,, but that's life

I find it utterly unrespectful towards any nation or folks to divide them, based on their oppressors system

When discussing administration, that's closer to how things were, besides I wouldn't call swedes oppressors more than any other feudal state.

And if we move Soroka to Karelia, which is not without base, what will happen to Pomorye state?

Right, didn't consider that state!

Great map FInland looks really good here.

 

[Entrone]

It is,, but that's life

I mean that the current ethnographic and linguistic reasons are just not arguements in EU4 timeline.

When discussing administration, that's closer to how things were, besides I wouldn't call swedes oppressors more than any other feudal state.

I was referring to my dislike towards East Slavic-Karelian, and Scandinavian-Finnish separation. While it indeed looks very good at states, I wouldn't support the same method regarding cultures.
But I guess it's up to PDX now to decide what they consider better arguement.

 

[AirikrStrife]

This is sort of how my North looks now (I'm note as accurate as Entrone on a pixel level)

Like Entrone I try out a province for Buskerud/Brunla. I also experiment with a Hardanger province, because of it's interesting history (have an event for that place)

Same changes in central and northern sweden as we discussed, Södermanland, Uppsala and Västernorrland/Härnosand. I don't split Småland main though but adds the island of Öland as it's own province with a strait to the mainland

Same changes as we already discussed, Björneborg/Satakunta/Birkaland redrawn, new Kymmenegård province

Northern finland/karelia/Lappland. Moved västerbottens border lsightely east, where it was until 1809 so more accurate than basing it on the post 1809 modern border, northernmost part of Enare were still not part of sweden but rather part of norway until 18th century (though really it was mostly wasteland) Renaming Enare to Kemi and moving it slightely south in accordance with the Kemi lappmark. Österbotten province reworked to Korsholm province, Rovaniemi province reworked to Österbotten province. Also tried to get a more pleasing border between Kajanaland and Österbotten

Split Kola into Kola and Murmansk, white karelia been split aswell (currently not a split based on anything particularly concrete. Though I think if a somewhat larger scope is thought of, it could be based on province 5 on this map: Overall there could be a second look on russian north, as Entrone also talks about with the vytegra province

Not done Denmark-Schleswig yet, my sketch for dev means there will be an additional 18dev for sweden, 6 devs for norway, and I'm planning on roughly 8 new dev for denmark

 

[Nykyus]

This is sort of how my North looks now (I'm note as accurate as Entrone on a pixel level)

View attachment 468250
Like Entrone I try out a province for Buskerud/Brunla. I also experiment with a Hardanger province, because of it's interesting history (have an event for that place)

View attachment 468252
Same changes in central and northern sweden as we discussed, Södermanland, Uppsala and Västernorrland/Härnosand. I don't split Småland main though but adds the island of Öland as it's own province with a strait to the mainland

View attachment 468254
Same changes as we already discussed, Björneborg/Satakunta/Birkaland redrawn, new Kymmenegård province

View attachment 468255
Northern finland/karelia/Lappland. Moved västerbottens border lsightely east, where it was until 1809 so more accurate than basing it on the post 1809 modern border, northernmost part of Enare were still not part of sweden but rather part of norway until 18th century (though really it was mostly wasteland) Renaming Enare to Kemi and moving it slightely south in accordance with the Kemi lappmark. Österbotten province reworked to Korsholm province, Rovaniemi province reworked to Österbotten province. Also tried to get a more pleasing border between Kajanaland and Österbotten

Split Kola into Kola and Murmansk, white karelia been split aswell (currently not a split based on anything particularly concrete. Though I think if a somewhat larger scope is thought of, it could be based on province 5 on this map: Overall there could be a second look on russian north, as Entrone also talks about with the vytegra province

Not done Denmark-Schleswig yet, my sketch for dev means there will be an additional 18dev for sweden, 6 devs for norway, and I'm planning on roughly 8 new dev for denmark

All perfectly.
But the names can be renamed: Lodovoye pole fi (in fact, the Ship field) to Svir in Slavic, or Sjuvya Järvi in Vepsa.
Petrozavodsk - Shuya. Petrozavodsk originated under Peter I.
Pudozh - Pudoga (in Karelian Puudoži)
Povoyanets - in Karelian Poventsa. The area around in Russian Zaonezhye, in Karelian Äänisniemi.
The Kola can be divided into 3 parts Konchan, Ter shore, Kandalaksha shore, in the latter Pomors will settle later.