New provinces to Northern Europe

[Entrone]

Hello guys!
Welcome to my suggestion of reworking, perfecting Northern Europe
As the feedbacks are looking positive, i will try to polish this suggestion, so when the time comes we will have a nice rework for the region.

Table of contents:
I. Map changes:

1. Scotland
2. Scandinavia
3. Bothnia and Finland
4. Karelia
5. Baltic
6. Prussia

II. Miscellaneous (under development)

1. Events
2. Missions
3. National Ideas

I. Map Changes

1. Scotland

While Scotland got a buff recently, it still feels lacking. England usually easily conquer it until 1500 in one or two wars. So i propose to give more strength and detail to the lowland parts, by dividing it into Central Lowlands and Aberdeen states.

New provinces (capital): trade good, terrain
Moray (Elgin): fish, highland <--- North of Aberdeen.
Angus/Forfar (Dundee): wool/cloth, farmland/highland <---South of Aberdeen.
Lanark (Glasgow): iron, farmland <---Between Lothian and Ayrshire, so you can't move directly between them.
Fife (St. Andrews): livestock, grassland <--- Small, yet important.
Durham (Durham): iron/grain?, grassland <--- South of Northumbria, not part of it.

Minor corrections:
-Put the island of Bute to Argyll province, as it's not even part of the Hebrides.
-Norway could have some missions, regarding the Isles, as it was colonised by them and ruled until 1266.
-Move the CoT from Ayrshire to Lanark (Maybe also the coal, as it was mined in both places, see sources).
-Change the terrain of Argyll, Perth and Aberdeen to Highland from Hills, Change Inverness to Mountains from Highland.
-Move the coal from Northumbria to Durham.
-New Aberdeen state: Aberdeen, Moray, Angus/Forfar.
-Border fixed for Argyll, Perth, Inverness.

Sources:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/sct_cmap.gif
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fife
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Palatine_of_Durham
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanarkshire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus,_Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundee
http://www.wwmm.org/immagini/z_1716.jpg


2. Scandinavia

Scandinavia is one of the best regions in the game, yet it needs a few provinces to be perfect. For example the enormous capital provinces. Besides Sweden is lacking the might to carry out it's historical role, and be a decent rival for Russia or Poland in it's own. So they would need at least a slight buff.

New provinces (capital): trade good
Buskerud (Tonsberg): fur <--- Western half of Akerhus, that was separated from it in the 17th century.
Hedemark (Kongsvinger): naval sup/fur <---- Eastern half of Opplanda.
Roskilde (Roskilde): naval supp/livestock <--- Capital of Denmark until 1443
Jönköping (Jönköping): livestock <--- Maybe a lvl1 CoT, as it was an important market town
Södermanland (Nyköping): fish/livestock <--- Southern part of current Stockholm
Uppland (Uppsala): grain <--- It was the center of the Archdiocese of Sweden

Minor changes:
-Rename the existing Tioharad province to Kronoberg, and change it's tradegood into grain (or maybe livestock)
-Rename Östergotland to Linköping, because that's the state's name.
-There could be an event for the founding of Gothenburg.
-The strait's danish end should be in Copenhagen province, not Roskilde.
-Now there's enough provinces for a decent Östra Svealand with Södermanland, Uppland, Stockholm and maybe Aland, so Bergslagen can be moved to Vastra Svealand state where it does belong.
-Sea tiles slightly redrawn to represen the Öresund better.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Sweden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jönköping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buskerud
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gothenburg


3. Bothnia and Finland

While the map projection shows this area a lot larger than it is really, some provinces are still awfully big (especially Halsingland, compared to being relatively on the south). Besides, Finnish provinces with this little polish perfectly reflect the area at the time. Red dots are the capitals of the -
New provinces (capital): trade good
Angermanland (Härnösand): fish <---Northern part of current Halsingland.
Kymmenegard (Heinola/Pyttis): fish <---Carved out of Savolax, Nyland and Viborg, alternative name Kymmenedalen.

Minor changes:
-Norrland state: Västerbotten, Angermanland, and Halsingland.
-Lappland and Jokkmokk to Laponia state.
-Ostrobothnia/Österbotten state and Enare redrawn.
-Birkaland merged with the northern part of Åbo to form Björneborg/Satakunda province (Ulsby).
-Finland Proper/Western Finland state: Åland, Satakunda, Åbo.
-The new Tavastia/Central Finland state: Nyland, Tavastland, Savolax, Kymmenegard.
-The region also lacks center of trades. Potential lvl1 CoTs: Åbo, Viborg.
-There could be an event in the 17th century for Sweden for the founding the town of Vaasa in Österbotten.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ångermanland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gävle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satakunta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turku


4. Karelia

There's the updated Karelia. You can see the new province in Finland, Kymmenegard.
So while thinking about possigle Karelian states, I realized that this also bothered me somewhat. And it's the extension of Karelian culture. And when I was looking for material I found that my new province is not just more aesthetic, but also historical. It helps to correct the Novgorod-Beloozero boerder. So the province:
Vytegra (Vytegra): fish, woods, novgorodian, to Beloozero state.

Minor changes:
-Laponia state: Lappland, Jokkmokk, Finnmark, Enare, Kola.
-Karelia state: Viborg, Karelen, Priozhersk/Kexholm, White Karelia, Olonets.
-Ingria state: Ingermanland, Neva, Ladoga.
-Change Ingermanland to Karelian culture. I would also like a Finnic culture group with Sapmi, Finnish, Karelian, and Estonian.
-Make Karelian an accepted culture of Novgorod, as they were allies against the Swedes.
-Fixed the border of White Karelia, Enare, Kola and Kajanaland. The grey line is the original border of Kola and White Karelia.
-Ladoga's capital should be Staraya Ladoga (it's viking name Aldeigjuborg could be used by germanic nations).

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytegra
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ae/25/3c/ae253cf2eefb09e12aee7208b03f658a.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staraya_Ladoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish–Novgorodian_Wars


5. Baltic

As it's already powerful neighbours, the russians and the polish got an update recently, the Livonian Order is in the dire situation at the start of the game. This could be eased somewhat by updating it's terribly outdated map. With green the capital of new provinces.

4 new provinces for Estonia:
Wiek/Laane (Hapsal/Haapsalu): fish <---There was the Bishopric of Wiek.
Pernau/Pärnu (same): naval supplies <--- Important town (possible lvl1 CoT), western part of Fellin.
Fellin/Viljandi (same): livestock <---The strongest castle of the Order.
Wesenberg/Rakvere: (same): grain <--- Quite important town, western half of Narwa.
and 2 for Latvia:
Windau/Ventspils (same): naval supplies <--- Was the main port of the Duchy of Courland.
Selburg/Selonia? (Selburg): livestock <---Carved out from Lettgallen and Mitau to represent Courland better.
(We could merge back the new Wesenberg province to Reval and Narwa, and unite Fellin and Pernau for a more conservative version, but we would still need to add a state, so if it has to be done, do it well.)

Minor changes:
-Change the trade good of Riga to something more prestigious, like cloth, and raise CoT to lvl2.
-Give Reval a lvl1 CoT and change trade good to salt? Change the trade good of Narwa to fish.
-Possible releasable tags: Bishopric of Dorpat, Bishopric of Wiek (Ösel-Wiek, claim on Ösel?).
-Estonia state: Ösel, Wiek, Reval, Wesenberg, Narwa.
-Livonia state: Dorpat, Fellin, Pernau, Wolmar.
-Courland state: Goldingen, Windau, Mitau, Selburg.
-And the new Vidzeme/Latgalia/Wenden state: Riga, Wenden, Dünaburg.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakvere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pärnu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viljandi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_regions_of_Latvia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenden_Voivodeship
http://www.mois.ee/kaart/kaart_eesti_eng.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...1260.svg/2000px-Medieval_Livonia_1260.svg.png


6. Prussia

As I checked the neighbouring regions I realized Prussia definately belongs to this thread, so I decided to include it in my suggestion. Their main rival, Poland, and Lithuania got an update recently, with a new event, which led the Teutons in a dire situation. Not to mention the Baltic region right now is only 26 province, that's less than half of some other regions. And right next to the (likely soon updated) HRE, Prussia's provinces are enormous. With these changes we could not just represent the region historically more accurate, but also alleviate Prussia's problems. All we have to do is resurrecting the Pomerelia state, and add 3 provinces.
Let me introduce you the possible new provinces:
-Bütow (Lauenburg/Bütow): naval supplies, grassland, pomeranian/kashubian <--- Lauenburg and Bütow had been part of both Pomerania and the Teuton lands.
-Schwetz (same): livestock, grassland, prussian <---One of the oldest towns in the region, added by splitting Tuchel, better representing cultures (Swiecie in polish).
-Intersburg (same): grain, woods, prussian <--- Probably the biggest town in Eastern Prussia after Königsberg.

Minor corrections:
-Revive Pomerelia state: Danzig, Tuchel, Bütow, Schwetz
-West Prussia state: Marienburg, Ermland, Osterode, and maybe Kulm (which is currently in Kuyavia).
-East Prussia state: Königsberg, Intersburg, Ortelsburg, Memel.
-Ortelsburg could have Polish culture.
-Stolp, Bütow, and Tuchel could be Kashubian (West Slavic) culture. With this we could reflect the slavic presence at the region.
-Maybe lvl1 CoT for Kulm?
-Redrawn several provinces to fix borders.

Sources:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Polska_1386_-_1434.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Teutonic_Order_1410-es.svg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/K0nigl+BherzoglPreussen_en.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...huania_-_Geographicus_-_Prussia-cary-1799.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhovsk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świecie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauenburg_and_Bütow_Land
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Netzedistrict1786.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians
http://en.kaszubia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/16401.png


So in total these changes would give 4 new provinces to Scotland, 1 to England, Denmark, Norway, and Novgorod, 3 to Teutonic Order, 5 to Sweden and 6 to Livonian Order.
Thank you for your attention and feel free to add something to the topic

II. Miscellaneous (Under development!)
1. Events.
-Founding the town of Vaasa
-Founding the town of Gothenburg
-Gotland pirate nation on ruler death.
2. Missions
-Hebrides for Norway.
-Estonia for Sweden.
-Colonial mission's for Denmark (Caribbean, Gold Coast, maybe even India -Frederiksøerne, Tranquebar)
-Eastern expansion for Sweden and Denmark.
3. National ideas

Previous similar suggestions:
Minor redraw of Sea provinces around Bornholm: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/borders-of-southern-baltic-sea.1035316/ by TheDungen
Baltic patch general stuff: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ndic-nordic-patch-general-suggestion.1046616/ by AirikrStrife
Improvements to Livonia: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/new-changes-in-baltic-sea.1003803/ by Nikita Dirigable
Scotland: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ce-glasgow-or-strathclyde-to-scotland.979713/ by gronak

(Changelog:
- Updated Bothnia and Finland: New province: Kymmenegard, merged Satakunda with Birkaland, reworked Bothnia.
- Updated the Baltic: Merged Rositten&Dünaburg, Wenden stays united, reworked states.
- Added Karelia: New province: Vytegra, reworked states around Karelia
- Updated Scotland: Changed Lanark, now it has a port, not Perth.
- Added Prussia: New provinces: Bütow, Insterburg, Tilsit. Revive Pomerelia state.
- Updated Bothnia: Gastrikland merged back to Halsingland, reworked states.
- Updated Prussia: New province: Schwetz, Tilsit merged back to Memel.
- Updated Scandinavia: New province: Hedemark. Vestfold removed. Sea tiles slightly redrawn.
Thanks to AirikrStrife, gronak, and qweyt for the suggestions. )

 

[Shoo]

Right now, as Finnish and Sami is in scandinavian, Karelian is in russian, Estonian in baltic, it's like if Czecz and Silesian was in German, Slovakian in Carpathian, and Polish in Russian culture group.

Slovakian is in the Carpathian group, also cultures are mostly for gameplay reasons

 

[AirikrStrife]

I know finnish and karelian are on a continuum (estonian would be more distinct), and there were shared traits of folklore and culture they maintained uniquely, I have read the Kalevala, I know how it was collected in Karelia and viewed by 19th century finns as "pure" finnic culture unspoiled by the swedes. I know the word for shaman is still noid (or very similiar)in all the languages that are proposed for the finnic culture group.

But in people's mental landscape in 1444 and I would argue also today finns are nordic. Some modern finns might hate swedes and talk about finnish nationalism and so on, but still today finns mostly have more in common and closer relationships with the other nordic countries than with karelians proper(i.e. not the finns speaking karelian dialect). I mysef have a finnish grandfather, finns participate in more inter-nordic activities, organisations etc than they do in 'uralic' something. Most estonians and finns I meet have no opinions about any finnic culture or have any pan-finnic ideologies or thoughts

In the mental landscape of finns in 15th-19th century they would not be "finnic", I'm not only suggesting that this works better for gameplay, that it better represents history but also that it better represents the realities of people living in finland a couple of centuries ago

That Estonians didn't have a strong ethnic noble or burgher class, didn't mean they were not Estonians.

There didn't exist a people calling themselves estonians back in 1444, there existed people who were the ancestors of modern estonians but they wouldn't know themselves as estonians yet, and they were several distinct groups, still today when I met a noid (not in the religious sense but as a traditional role in family celebrations and stuff) in Saaremaa in 2017, he said they (islanders) considered themselves (sort of) a different people from estonians.

and for samis they don't look more finnish than they look general nordic. except they actually often have distinct features such as slanting eyes, but anatomy aside. Sami were living so different lifestyles and the languages are quite remote there didn't exist any common identity between sami and finns, in sami mythology chudes are the archenemy of samis, and in finnish folklore samis are considered dark mages and there were plenty of conflicts between the groups.

it's like if Czecz and Silesian was in German, Slovakian in Carpathian, and Polish in Russian culture group.

No because there existed distinct czech and polish cultures and states, and during the middle ages they still had strong cultural links (something which grew thinner during the early modern era).

Culture groups are not perfect, because in reality there are rarely hard lines, and as said, IMO culture is primarily in the minds (or speech) of people, the line seperating finns form karelians is a harder/thicker line than the one seperating them from swedes. This has not always been the case, but it was during the era of euiv

 

[Entrone]

Slovakian is in the Carpathian group, also cultures are mostly for gameplay reasons

Yes, even though they are exactly West Slavic And I preferred the previous "Central European" culture group (basically West Slavic + Hungarian).
Even though it doesen't match this thread too closely, i will elaborate

First of all, what's Carpathian? It contain's the Kingdom of Hungary, Moldavia and Wallachia. The former barely had anything in common with the other two. Romanians fitted well in the Balkanic culture group I think (which is still not completely South Slavic, as there are the Albanians).
Slovakians were basically Moravians living in Hungary, and Transylvanian is just a cursory, polcorrect grouping of local Hungarians, Szeklers (a distinct group of Hungarians), Germans (mostly Saxons), and Romanians.
Next I would like to point out the similarities between especially Poland and Hungary, but Bohemia also. This Central European region is right next to the germans, who tried to expand by every possible means, and as history showed us, at the end they prevailed. Polish, Czech and Hungarian kingdoms all has been founded around 1000 AD, and this act included conversion to Christianity (and faced controversy in the population). Bohemia being quite small compared to the others, encircled by germanic people, decided to join the HRE. Hungary and Poland decided to stay out of it, witch later culminated a few wars, but the Central Europeans hold their lines. It was not until the Ottoman expansion that parts of Hungary got under german control, as the resisting hungarians were aware they can't defeat the Ottoman Empire alone, especially not if there's an other hostile Empire. So Hungarians were divided: In west and north, they would rather look for german help, accepting Habsburg rulers, why on the east they would prefer treaty with the Ottomans, this became Transylvania (south got occupied by the ottomans). In case of Poland, this happened in the form of the partitions.
But even before the partitions there was a level of germanic migration to these lands (even Silesia and Bohemia was overwhelmingly slavic in 1444). That was just enough to help the spread of concepts shown in Eu4 as Institutions. So in this era Central Europe was halfway betwen east and west, a habit, that we have until this day. And these countries sticked with the Catholic, not the Othodox.
All these circumstances contributed to the direction of development of these areas, which show significant cultural similarities.

I would also remove Hungarian-Austrian historical friendship, it wasn't true at all at the time (maybe from the second part of the 19th century). Replace it with the Polish-Hungarian friendship. Nearly 1000 years passed with a common border, without a single war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_and_Hungarian_brothers_be

 

[Entrone]

I know finnish and karelian are on a continuum (estonian would be more distinct), and there were shared traits of folklore and culture they maintained uniquely, I have read the Kalevala, I know how it was collected in Karelia and viewed by 19th century finns and "pure" finnic culture unspoiled by the swedes. I know the word for shaman is still noid (or very similiar)in all the languages that are proposed for the finnic culture group.

But in people's mental landscape in 1444 and I would argue also today finns are nordic. Some modern finns might hate swedes and talk about finnish nationalism and so on, but still today finns mostly have more in common and closer relationships with the other nordic countries than with karelians proper(i.e. not the finns speaking karelian dialect). I mysef have a finnish grandfather, finns participate in more inter-nordic activities, organisations etc than they do in 'uralic' something. Most estonians and finns I meet have no opinions about any finnic culture or have any pan-finnic ideologies or thoughts

In the mental landscape of finns in 15th-19th century they would not be "finnic", I'm not only suggesting that this works better for gameplay, that it better represents history but also that it better represents the realities of people living in finland a couple of centuries ago



There didn't exist a people calling themselves estonians back in 1444, there existed people who were the ancestors of modern estonians but they wouldn't know themselves as estonians yet, and they were several distinct groups, still today when I met a noid (not in the religious sense but as a traditional role in family celebrations and stuff) in Saaremaa in 2017, he said they (islanders) considered themselves (sort of) a different people from estonians.

and for samis they don't like more finnish than they like general nordic. except they actually often have distinct features such as slanting eyes, but anatomy aside. Sami were living so different lifestyles and the languages are quite remote there didn't exist any common identity between sami and finns, in sami mythology chudes are the archenemy of samis, and in finnish folklore samis are considered dark mages and there were plenty of conflicts between the groups.



No because there existed distinct czech and polish cultures and states, and during the middle ages they still had strong cultural links (something which grew thinner during the early modern era).

Culture groups are not perfect, because in reality there are rarely hard lines, and as said, IMO culture is primarily in the minds (or speech) of people, the line seperating finns form karelians is a harder/thicker line than the one seperating them from swedes. This has not always been the case, but it was during the era of euiv

Let's clear one thing: Saying Finns are quite different from Swedes is not hating (in case someone is doing it because of hate, he's probably just compensating).

But that's my point: Today's finns are not relevant for now. They answered with this Nordic identity exactly for a lack of "cultural family". A thing Estonians also started recently, as they also have and had strong ties with Scandinavia. After experiencing russian (not to mention Soviet) rule, it's a great prospect to join the advanced Nordic group of the 21th century. For today I wouldn't make a Finnic group, but in 1444 definately yes.

Your arguement of, lacking national selfawareness is equal to being more similar to surrounding groups" is just not correct. As I mentioned this region in 1444 (baltic and finland+karelia) has been under the control of foreign rulers' just for like a hundred years. And yes before that, these regions didn't consisted of homogenous provinces, but rather a loose alliance of tribes that were more or less similar. Look at how many Baltic tribes existed back then, the western ones assimilated to prussians/poles, and the ones in the northeast became the quite homogenous lithuanians. Now the same was the case for the Finnic nations.
And under a 100 years, they just couldn't become more similar to the Swedish, than to their relatives, whit whom they shared millenias of common religion, traits, etc...
Culture groups are of course not perfect, but a Finnic group could be represented magnificiently.

and for samis they don't like more finnish than they like general nordic. except they actually often have distinct features such as slanting eyes, but anatomy aside. Sami were living so different lifestyles and the languages are quite remote there didn't exist any common identity between sami and finns, in sami mythology chudes are the archenemy of samis, and in finnish folklore samis are considered dark mages and there were plenty of conflicts between the groups.

It's completely not about common identity. It barely existed in let's say France, Italy or Spain, not to mention Germany, until the Enlightment. Putting the Karelians and the Finnish into the same group I think is similar to put Francien and Occitan. They were not exactly similar, but there's more connecting them than separating.
And putting Samis and Finnish to Nordic, it's like putting Czech to German culture. Because look at them now, I've been there last summer. It was more similar to Germany than to Poland. Czech and also Slovenian people, because of centuries of strong connection to Germans, nowadays are more similar to them, than to their slavic relatives. Your arguement in the case of Finland is very similar.
Finnic people HAD distinct cultures and states, just like the Czech. Before 1000 AD, when they formed their united Bohemia, it was rather a conglomeration of tribes, who weren't reflecting to themselves as Czechs at all. And they continued not to, until it became important. Yet there's a Czech culture, and you accept it.
Now the conditions of the Baltic regions in the 13-14th century was basically the same as in Central Europe around 1000 AD. But Baltic tribes didn't baptized, didn't form own kingdoms by Papal approval, that's why their fate became so different, even as early as 1444, and that's why I said Central Europe is halfway between East and West.
That crusaders at the time didn't recognize the native tribes sovereignity over their land, it didn't mean they didn't exist. And the best representation for them, is based on the later developed national consciousness. Because the Estonians for example didn't chose their name (actually it derives from a Baltic tribe, living in today's Kurland at roman times), neither the Finns, these were just names, that more developed neighbouring areas inhabitants used for these whole regions. Yet this could be the most accurate and widely understood representation.
As from 1444 things could go differently, as the previous century's revolts show us, they were very far from assimilation.

I like how Samis are dark mages in Finnish folklore, but it's not an arguement. For example before Hungarians settled in the Carpathian basin, we had a few wars against Pechenegs, so they got a bad reputation (It's known until this day, pechenegs are eating newborns). Yet when they migrated into Hungary in the 13th century before marauding mongols, we welcomed them, and for now they are completely assimilated. It was common for these people who drew inspiration from their ancient, spiritual religion. Now that's an other similarity that connects Finns and Samis

What I think you would like to represent well, is the enormous Swedish influence in Finland. I completely agree with that, but I would prefer it in a "Finnish accepted culture+Aland, Abo and maybe Österbotten getting an event and turning to Swedish culture". That event could work like the one for Spain, or rather Hungary (regarding Transylvanians).

I hope I managed to gain you over

 

[AirikrStrife]

I hope I managed to gain you over

No, and I explain why in a sec

Saying Finns are quite different from Swedes is not hating (in case someone is doing it because of hate, he's probably just compensating).

I was throwing this out without enough context, in modern finland there are rising sentiments of anti-swedish views, which has resultat in discrimination and hate crimes against the swedish speaking population. I wanted to say that despite this modern finns have more in common with the rest of the nordics than with karelians

Your arguement of, lacking national selfawareness is equal to being more similar to surrounding groups"

it's not "surrounding groups" it's groups they lived with and share a political space with, at least finns

foreign rulers' just for like a hundred years.

And under a 100 years, they just couldn't become more similar to the Swedish, than to their relatives, whit whom they shared millenias of common religion, traits,

200-300 years, and sometimes that's enough, a couple of centuries which included conversation to new religions, introduced a whole new socio-cultural and political landscapes because saying that finnic tribes had states before being integrated in sweden and novgorod, is a matter of definition of what is a state, they certainly had tribes, maybe also chiefdoms, but the integration in the nascent swedish kingdom would have completly altered the socio-political world they lived in (Karelians seems to have had a slower integration into the russian sphere though I can't say for sure)

It was more similar to Germany than to Poland

I'm open to the idea of moving czech to german, but from what I know there were distinct boundaries between germans and czechs for a long time, which also became very prominent during the hussite wars which happened during 15th century.

I like how Samis are dark mages in Finnish folklore, but it's not an arguement.

The point is basically that samis could just aswell be aliens to the finns. Now Samis and finns to some extent inhabit the same geographic sphere meaning there's been interaction between them, they are part of each others history, but about as related as romans and germans (and there were a lot of similarities between germanic tribes and romans, some due to indo-european origins, but mostly due to spread of roman culture)

Putting the Karelians and the Finnish into the same group I think is similar to put Francien and Occitan. They were not exactly similar, but there's more connecting them than separating.

I would say a better comparison is breton and welsh. Linguistically they would be about as close to each other at this point, while welsh were being integrated in the english realm, breton were being integrated in the french,

What I think you would like to represent well, is the enormous Swedish influence in Finland. I completely agree with that, but I would prefer it in a "Finnish accepted culture

Accepted culture is conquering a new group of people, say: hey boys, you keep being you, we will accept your culture, but maybe later once seperatism is over we will ditch this culture to accept a larger newly conquered group.

And the reason why we are disagreeing is because we're coming from two different perspectives, you want to argue that because finns and karelians maybe similiar styles of music, food, some similiar concepts relating to folklore and customs, they belong together. And this is quite often what is meant by culture

I want to argue that my stance is based on how people would identify, what would be the most meaningful and realistic back then (based on my understanding of both history and human behavior, which, is not flawless but I haven't seen any counter argument which I believe overturns my perspective). To convince me you would really have to 'prove' that there existed a notion of identification or knowledge of each other (finns, estonians, karelians) that is stronger than the relationship the finns had to the swedish crown

finally to point out, there are many groups in the game that are relatively 'bad' simply because they cover too large areas, most languages and cultures are as, or more diverse than german, yet they are represented as one culture then german is represented with like 10 cultures, This is because there is space enough for it in germany but not in the caucaus

 

[Entrone]

Accepted culture is conquering a new group of people, say: hey boys, you keep being you, we will accept your culture, but maybe later once seperatism is over we will ditch this culture to accept a larger newly conquered group.

And the reason why we are disagreeing is because we're coming from two different perspectives, you want to argue that because finns and karelians maybe similiar styles of music, food, some similiar concepts relating to folklore and customs, they belong together. And this is quite often what is meant by culture

I want to argue that my stance is based on how people would identify, what would be the most meaningful and realistic back then (based on my understanding of both history and human behavior, which, is not flawless but I haven't seen any counter argument which I believe overturns my perspective). To convince me you would really have to 'prove' that there existed a notion of identification or knowledge of each other (finns, estonians, karelians) that is stronger than the relationship the finns had to the swedish crown

I think accepted culture: 1. doesn't necessary mean they were conquered 2. means that those cultures are working well together, maybe with some extent of self-representation 3. and you accept cultures when you want it to be a part of your realm, not when you convert them in 50 years.

It's not about the music and food the stuff, though we can consider it as a measure of culture.
I completely agree with "what was in people's mind" or what they said.
From that, the scientifical research that native language has an effect on thinking, and Finnic languages are not Indo-European like slavic, baltic or germanic, to that they were just conquered, which meant building a few castle (those numbers are just the date of the conquest, changes were slower back then, not like when Soviet Union deported half nations), I think everything point to that, in the middle of the 15th century Finnish people still had their ancient customs, they just started to become the people the Kajanaland natives called "routsi" in the 19-20th century.

In the spirit of the notion of Adolf Ivar Arwidsson (1791–1858), "we are not Swedes, we do not want to become Russians, let us therefore be Finns", the Finnish national identity started to become established. <--- It was even said out towards the end of the game's timeframe.
It took time for these eastern nations, to find their voice, as previous times the struggle ended in religious, or class friction, but Enlightment carried the thought necessary for it.

As there are enough cultures, enough territory, enough similarity, I'm sure the Finnic culture group could be a thing.

 

[Entrone]

Scandinavia

So slightly redrawn this region, now new provinces' capital is in red there too.
In Norway I added Hedemark to the suggestion, and removed Vestfold. Now Ostlandet state would have 6 provinces, so maybe Sorrlandet state could be added.

Besides I agree with the slight redrawn of sea tiles in the baltic. Blue lines could be the new borders of sea provinces. This would give strategical importance to Bornholm.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/borders-of-southern-baltic-sea.1035316/

 

[BuchiTaton]

Many dilemmas like if Finnish should be in Scandinavian or Finnic culture group could be solved if devs add the option to have cultures in two groups at same time.
With this Finnish culture can be Scandinavian and Finnic at the same time, making this culture harmonized with their neighbors and then gameplay usefull. This would also end many discussions and give ous better roleplaying.

After all there are plenty of similar cases, like could have Breton and Welsh in Celtic culture group (even Galician maybe). Or Basque in both Iberian and French group for gameplay reasons.

 

[Thaif]

That would be a good compromise, or solution to this, but it would mean a large undertaking with relatively little gameplay to show for it. Perhaps if there was/would be an expansion that deals with higher local level governance such as; Actual governors for states, expanding/deepening the state policy and prosperity/devastation mechanic, etc then that definetly should be considered.

 

[Entrone]

This video shows the history of Scandinavia and how it changed through time, from the first records, until 2017. I found it very interesting, check out if you are interested

 

[Entrone]

Also, a more detailed map of the non-spanish caribbean island would be good, so the Danish, Dutch, and French historical presence could be represented better.

 

[jrgen3]

Regarding Norway, I think Tønsberg would be more fitting than Drammen as the capital of Buskerud. Tønsberg is the oldest city in Norway, and still is one of the biggest cities in the country (second biggest in the province you have drawn after Drammen, but that happened after the game ended).
For Hedemark, I would use Hamar as capital instead of Kongsvinger. It's on the edge of the province, but it was (and still is) by far the most important city in the province.

 

[AirikrStrife]

A place that wasn't really looked at for this thread, but could also be split into new provinces is the Kola peninsula. Even the Novgorodians divided this land in two administrative units (volosts),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Peninsula#Early_history

New province line should go roughly between these two markers on this map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Gra...41eaa5ec15d50!2m2!1d34.817778!2d66.609167!3e0

Western province could keep the name Kola, as it's there the historic city of Kola was located,

I haven't found one name used consquently for the entire peninsula (besides Kola) or using the Novgorod name 'Tre' (but then the western part should match that and be named 'Kolo')
Tersky has some validity as having origins with the Pomors and still being used for the southern parts of the peninsula.

 

[Thaif]

I believe the "Tre" name, or term, comes from a Sami tribe and dialect of Ter Sámi. They lived roughly in the area covered by the Volost along with Kildin and Akkala Sámi. All three are sometimes referred to as the "Kola Sámi".

One province that could also be considered is Kandalaksha (Russian: Кандала́кша; Finnish: Kantalahti, also Kandalax or Candalax in the old maps; Karelian: Kannanlakši; Skolt Sami: Käddluhtt). Kantalahti is situated right at the head of the Kandalaksha Gulf.

In Medieval documents the local Sami people are often mentioned. The village of Kantalahti is first mentioned in 1526 all though the settlement has been purported have existed from at least the 11th century.
It was a significant center of fishing, hunting and trade, in which a church was built. In 1553 the orthodox monastery of Kantalahti was established, that did missionary work among the Sami. The monastery that owned the region's hunting grounds, fish-shoals and salterns supplied more than 10,000 pood(one pood is 16,38 kg) of salt to Russia each year as well as salmon, cod and later herring.
The monastery was abolished in 1742. Ten years later, in 1782, Kantalahti had about 300 inhabitants. During 1796 the village was integrated in to the Kem district.

The village and the area have seen several military actions during its history; The Swedes plundered and burned Kantalahti in 1590, Lithuanian Cossack troops destroyed the village in 1613 and the English burned it in 1855.

As a province Kantalahti would add a valuable trade resource(salt) in a relatively low value place, making it a potentially valuable if expensive and vulnerable to develop in addition to giving some military maneuverability in the area. Plus there'd be another Sami or Karelian cultured province in the 1444 start. After 1553 the culture should be changed to Russian as that's a fitting time for a shift due to the Kantalahti monastery being established.

Best way to represent the cultural history of the area would be to make Sami the original culture, but make it Karelian at the 1444 start.
This way both Sami and Karelian will be possible to "restore" when the culture inevitably shifts to Russian. In fact this should be done in a number of provinces on the map, but that is another discussion.

If a province is out of the question then the influence of Kantalahti should be represented in the province it would end up in.

 

[mechanical_Critter]

Could you show the same map (for scandinavia, not prussia), centered at the arctic? That would put some perspective on the size of the added provinces.

I'm sure that, prior to a rework to the map there, there should be an update of the map (or, AT LEAST on distances) so that it isn't flat earthed: right now, the distances are absolute garbage, coring range as well, making it one of the regions that are the most horrible to play in. If we get something à-la-imperator: Rome, maybe it'll be good to take a second look then?

 

[EasternTiger]

Here is a Canadian map of the polar regions, using azimuthal equidistant projection (aka centered on the North Pole).

Spoiler: Polar Region Azimuthal Equidistant Projection

 

[AirikrStrife]

I believe the "Tre" name, or term, comes from a Sami tribe and dialect of Ter Sámi. They lived roughly in the area covered by the Volost along with Kildin and Akkala Sámi. All three are sometimes referred to as the "Kola Sámi".

One province that could also be considered is Kandalaksha (Russian: Кандала́кша; Finnish: Kantalahti, also Kandalax or Candalax in the old maps; Karelian: Kannanlakši; Skolt Sami: Käddluhtt). Kantalahti is situated right at the head of the Kandalaksha Gulf.

In Medieval documents the local Sami people are often mentioned. The village of Kantalahti is first mentioned in 1526 all though the settlement has been purported have existed from at least the 11th century.
It was a significant center of fishing, hunting and trade, in which a church was built. In 1553 the orthodox monastery of Kantalahti was established, that did missionary work among the Sami. The monastery that owned the region's hunting grounds, fish-shoals and salterns supplied more than 10,000 pood(one pood is 16,38 kg) of salt to Russia each year as well as salmon, cod and later herring.
The monastery was abolished in 1742. Ten years later, in 1782, Kantalahti had about 300 inhabitants. During 1796 the village was integrated in to the Kem district.

The village and the area have seen several military actions during its history; The Swedes plundered and burned Kantalahti in 1590, Lithuanian Cossack troops destroyed the village in 1613 and the English burned it in 1855.

As a province Kantalahti would add a valuable trade resource(salt) in a relatively low value place, making it a potentially valuable if expensive and vulnerable to develop in addition to giving some military maneuverability in the area. Plus there'd be another Sami or Karelian cultured province in the 1444 start. After 1553 the culture should be changed to Russian as that's a fitting time for a shift due to the Kantalahti monastery being established.

Best way to represent the cultural history of the area would be to make Sami the original culture, but make it Karelian at the 1444 start.
This way both Sami and Karelian will be possible to "restore" when the culture inevitably shifts to Russian. In fact this should be done in a number of provinces on the map, but that is another discussion.

If a province is out of the question then the influence of Kantalahti should be represented in the province it would end up in.

I was actually looking at a province for that village, but looking at the extremly small population of the area I don't know if it's reasonable. In mid 19th century, Kola had 5000 inhabitants; though it will to some extent be about jow the province is drawn, it needs to be fairly large

 

[Thaif]

If "empty" colonisable provinces are included for sake of history or as potential gameplay(not to mention something like the Siberian tags...) then a Kola peninsula divided to 2, as suggested, or 3 provinces for sake of history(the slow colonization and commercialization of natural resources(salt, fish, fur and later mineral wealth) and the fate of the local Sami and Karelian populace, etc) or potential gameplay for when you just have to build that Sami or Karelian state.

Or just as something for the usual suspects(Sweden, Novgorod/Muscovy, etc) to fight over. Plus the local province border gore would be pleasantly decreased.

 

[Mjuu]

Norwegian missions would be fun! Gain independence. Colonize Vinland. Subjugate and/or annex Sweden and Denmark! Yeah, that would be fun. Also, to gain bonuses from doing it. What about resurrecting Harald Hardrådes ambition and gain a claim on the Kingdom of England. Reclaiming the Hebrides is an obvious one. Also Isle of Man.

 

[Entrone]

Norwegian missions would be fun! Gain independence. Colonize Vinland. Subjugate and/or annex Sweden and Denmark! Yeah, that would be fun. Also, to gain bonuses from doing it. What about resurrecting Harald Hardrådes ambition and gain a claim on the Kingdom of England. Reclaiming the Hebrides is an obvious one. Also Isle of Man.

The claim on whole England sounds a bit exagerrated, but there could be missions to control the Hebrides, Isle of Man, and a few cities like Cork, Dublin, Lancaster.

If "empty" colonisable provinces are included for sake of history or as potential gameplay(not to mention something like the Siberian tags...) then a Kola peninsula divided to 2, as suggested, or 3 provinces for sake of history(the slow colonization and commercialization of natural resources(salt, fish, fur and later mineral wealth) and the fate of the local Sami and Karelian populace, etc) or potential gameplay for when you just have to build that Sami or Karelian state.

Or just as something for the usual suspects(Sweden, Novgorod/Muscovy, etc) to fight over. Plus the local province border gore would be pleasantly decreased.

I find it an interesting idea, but then I would rather add them as a tribal nation
Besides, then most of Northern Russia could be emptied to have it colonized, good example how Vytegra was founded 50 years after 1444.
And I don't think we want things like this in Northern Europe. Stick to a tribal nation imo.

A place that wasn't really looked at for this thread, but could also be split into new provinces is the Kola peninsula. Even the Novgorodians divided this land in two administrative units (volosts),

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Peninsula#Early_history

New province line should go roughly between these two markers on this map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Gra...41eaa5ec15d50!2m2!1d34.817778!2d66.609167!3e0

Western province could keep the name Kola, as it's there the historic city of Kola was located,

I haven't found one name used consquently for the entire peninsula (besides Kola) or using the Novgorod name 'Tre' (but then the western part should match that and be named 'Kolo')
Tersky has some validity as having origins with the Pomors and still being used for the southern parts of the peninsula.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, regarding Kola, but I don't think the devs would like to make this region so dense. Maybe splitting into two provinces is possible, but that Finno-Ugric thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...no-ugric-peoples-near-novgorod.1162368/page-3) goes too far regarding the the size and impact of the tribes. I still support a simple Finnic group with Finnish, Sapmi, Karelian, Estonian, and I find province density close to be perfect.