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Observations on 0.11

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JRaup said:
Given that your issue arises after Danzig or War, I can guarantee that the USA has an embargo AI loaded. Your belligerence is just too high as Germany to sustain the trade relationship. Your relations in this case matter little, only in that they will even talk to you. I'm actually some what surprised you managed to get away with this prior to CORE 0.11. There must have been other effects we're not seeing on the US end, which shifted it's policy sliders more towards Authoritarian and right wing to achieve that sort of consistency. Either that or you've just been lucky so far...
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Interesting.

Doesnt this lead to a massive shortfall of rare material and oil as germany? Perhaps this isnt the right thread for this discussion, but I can see a couple of challenges with this design.

1. AI germany/japan end up in a resource shortfall, for germany this isnt as crippeling as they have 3 years to build stockpiles, but japan goes to war in '37.

2. Japan has problems already with oscillations of the economy, the trading AI being what it is trades away any excess of a resource and ends with small stockpiles of oil/rares/coal.

3. With -100 rares+ per day as germany the AI will go into a downsized economy within 4 years of the war breaking out. Provided you dont liberate the east.
 
Got a question about the Munich conference events. I tried to follow the historic path and get the Sudetanland and all peacefully, without a war. But I guess i picked the wrong series of events as Czeckoslovakia DOWed me.

What I did was, not give an ultimatum but try to resolve it and then went with the ask Mussolini to write up a draft or something. Which afterwards resulted in the war.

Which series of events do I have to follow to secure Czechoslovakia for myself peacefully?
 
Rommel22 said:
Got a question about the Munich conference events. I tried to follow the historic path and get the Sudetanland and all peacefully, without a war. But I guess i picked the wrong series of events as Czeckoslovakia DOWed me.

What I did was, not give an ultimatum but try to resolve it and then went with the ask Mussolini to write up a draft or something. Which afterwards resulted in the war.

Which series of events do I have to follow to secure Czechoslovakia for myself peacefully?
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That's odd - what you describe is the historical way (the first choice is the historical choice). Maybe there's something else at play here, such as an unusually high belligerence for you? What has happened before (regarding Rhineland, Anschluss and other things - such as Hungary)?
 
Azkor said:
Interesting.

Doesnt this lead to a massive shortfall of rare material and oil as germany? Perhaps this isnt the right thread for this discussion, but I can see a couple of challenges with this design.

1. AI germany/japan end up in a resource shortfall, for germany this isnt as crippeling as they have 3 years to build stockpiles, but japan goes to war in '37.
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AI Germany shouldn't end up in a severe shortage. The gains made from the usual conquests of HOL, BEL, and FRA should make up 99% of any shortfalls. Plus, as a player you can usually avoid invading HOL, which allows you to maintain some very good trades for oil and rares. Japan is a different story though. Though I still consistently see JAP maintain 130+ IC from 37 to 43 or so.

Azkor said:
2. Japan has problems already with oscillations of the economy, the trading AI being what it is trades away any excess of a resource and ends with small stockpiles of oil/rares/coal.
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This can and will be improved, to what extent and when I can't say for sure.

Azkor said:
3. With -100 rares+ per day as germany the AI will go into a downsized economy within 4 years of the war breaking out. Provided you dont liberate the east.
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I don't see this very often. Maybe once every 5 games or so. There are plenty of traidng partners for Germany to get Rares and Oil from. Though it is possible for a player of UK, FRA, USA, USSR, to effectively block these trades by sucking up the excess reosurces from those nations.
 
baylox said:
That's odd - what you describe is the historical way (the first choice is the historical choice). Maybe there's something else at play here, such as an unusually high belligerence for you? What has happened before (regarding Rhineland, Anschluss and other things - such as Hungary)?
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I think by this time my beligerence was at 1%. Everything I did was historical till then. Got the Rhineland back, got the historical Anshlus, however I did have Hungary as an ally by the time the Munich Conference happened.

Other than that, there was nothing special going. Maybe I aught to reload to my last save and try again and see what happens.
 
1st 0.11 game finished - observations

Hi all,

i just finished my first hoi2, CORE 0.11 game as germany.

It ist the end of 1941 and my troops are far behind the Ural in Russia while Italy has closed the Suez and annexed Iraq. The western border is secured with level 3 coastal forts and more than enough garrisons.

I tired to go all the historical way. The Events from Rhineland over Sudetenland to the End of the Czechs worked all fine.

I started the war with the Danzig or war event. I decided to take the war ;-)

I never had any problems with stockpiling resources. Even with IC maxed out with ministers and my whole army and airforce in action i still got a positive surplus on rares and oil.

Italy was very, very strong - Egypt stayed neutral and no english divisions tried to defend the suez.

Italy anf Japan hab both just one transport in dez 1941. How is Jap supposed to bring havoc to the pacific?

Naval Combat system works fine - my subs sunk some capital ships, but very seldom - most of the time the subs were beaten up by the RN. But i managed to sink about 5 BBs and 3CVc with my subs until dez 1941.

Japan Ai didn't do very well in Nat. Chi in the beginning - but slowly Jap reached nanking - but no Massacre-Event.

- i habve to stop here - i have to work now for my money ;-)
- back again

The tech trees are great - with my game running so slow, i had enough time to figure them out. I was just irritated by the tech named twice in one screen - in the infantry techtree for example. But i tihink ist has to do with the arrangement of prerequisites and so on.

But i wasn't able to research everything - i had to make decisions - great work!!

The ai seems to be to weak. i played on n/n and - without paratroopers - i finished poland in 13 days and france in 17 days. Russia was just one kick against the front ans the whole USSR broke down like a card-house.

If the russian front is penetrated once, the fate of the red army is sealed.
Once the retreating troops are moving, they don't stop until they are surrendered and killed. I killed almost 40% of the red army within the first two weeks of Barbarossa. But iThink, thats a topic of the paradox ai.

Just an idea - what about an event to set up a "winter front in the end of 1941 to stop the german advance? Something like giving russia quiet a big bunch of divisions in designated provinces? Simulating the arriving of sibirian divisions.

Another point - i did Weserübung with just on TP - what about an event that gives germany some tps if it decides to do weserübung. Without that tp i accidently build i would never reached norway.

Because of the cost for paras and transports, i never choosed to build them - way to expensive with such high upgrade costs.

I never had a chance to establish the afrika corps - no port in the mediterrean sea - i liked the way hsr approached this - just an aevent that gives you the dak in afrika.

But with Italy fighting like this, no DAK is needed.

Thats all for the moment - thanks to all CORE-members and bug-reporters for this fine mod - i really enloyed it, until i was on the way for world-conquest in 1941 - i declared myself winner and quit...

cu
 
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Thanks for your input, it's always valuable to hear long-term impressions.

It sounds like most of your "problems" are AI related and this isn't surprising and there is little or no actual AI in the game yet. 0.2 should do a better job here.

Your idea about the Soviet event to gain a number of divisions is not very likely to happen in CORE as we are opposed to magically appearing units on a general principle (there are perhaps exceptions, but on this scale - no). Same thing with the DAK.

As far as I know the Weserübung is still the vanilla event, so that should've happened to you - but I've experienced vanilla games without it too, so this might just be a freak occurance (or non-occurance, rather). The vanilla event checks every 2 days for 3 months with a 10% chance each time (along with some other requirements regarding Denmark and Norway), so there is a miniscule chance of it not happening.

Thanks for the input - keep it coming (preferably as another nation - everyone seems to play Germany, me included - I recommend the UK, some cool event choices for them if you play things right)!
 
baylox said:
Your idea about the Soviet event to gain a number of divisions is not very likely to happen in CORE as we are opposed to magically appearing units on a general principle (there are perhaps exceptions, but on this scale - no). Same thing with the DAK.
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I agree to that - i like the way CORE tweaks the historic or ahistoric part of the gameplay - very elegant. Raining down troops isn't elegant.

But, for example, there is an event in hsr like "russian winter" wich reduced infra in special provinces to simulate the opposing weather conditions. That was really a nice idea.

hmmm - i think i better go to the CORE-Forum to dicuss gameplay issues there in the appropriate thread... :eek:o

- perhaps i make a stop at UK to have something for this one...

cu
 
I've been playing 0.11 for the past week now. I'm playing as Germany in 1948 (no time limit patch) and I'm still having tons o'fun! I just took New York and I've got about 30 US and Canadian divisions pocketed in northern Quebec. :)

I'm very happy with CORE so far - the gameplay is outstanding and I love the depth and breadth of the units and research. I tried to stick with historical events, but the SU declared war on me befor I'd even made a move on France, so my game plan got thrown out the window early. Luckily I have enough infantry to hold the line in the east while the panzers and motorshutzen took the French.

I built five conversion carriers before 1939, and they didn't do a whole lot but were excellent convoy raiders. Even the one or two that survived until where I am in the current game haven't been terribly effective in ship to ship combat (which is good, IMHO). My subs, on the other hand, utterly wrecked the Royal Navy. They're outstanding if used in wolfpacks, especially early in the war. I got lucky and built way more than I would have otherwise so I had something like 50 U-Boats off the UK coast by August 5th 1939 operating in groups of 3-5. I sank many carriers and battleships with them. Even now, in 1948, they're still pounding away at the US Navy. I think I've sunk the USS Wasp probably four times now! Only threat they seem to encounter is the occasional destroyer group or when they're in range of land based air.

Some observations:

Convoy raiding seems to be ineffective, strategically. I was litterally averaging a combined 20 British or French convoy ships a day for two years with no noticeable effect on the UK. Their IC still showed something like 210/170 until my fallschirmjaegers took London.

The AI doesn't seem to be too interested in upgrading. I'm fighting 1930 and 1935 pattern US divisions in New England in 1948.

My allies gave me all the blueprints for my nuclear program. I'd rather Italy concentrate on warships or their sad army, which is getting it's butt kicked by South Africa in Ethiopia.

All in all, though, I'm having a lot of fun. Thanks for all the work!
 
Your observation about convoy raiding is interesting from many aspects, I believe.
20 convoys for two years is a lot of convoys, even for BR & FR. And maybe that amount would have an impact. Do you know if the Brits built a lot of replacement convoys? Cause if they did it means that even if your blockade didn't strangle the flow of resources, it forced the Brits to build merchant ships instead of warships.

On the other hand it is possible that people generally expects too much out of the submarine warfare. Dönitz believed that he could win the war with submarines and both the German and the British propaganda may have exaggerated how near breakdown England was (for different reasons). If you trust Clay Blair and his extensive works on the German submarine warfare, it is a myth how effective the submarine warfare was. According to his figures there were long periods where about 99% of the allied merchant shipping reached its destination. The subs sunk a lot of ships and caused a lot of suffering, but according to Blair the never really threatened the entire British war production.

Now, your subs seams to have been strategically more efficient then the real ones of the Kriegsmarine, so perhaps your right. I just wanted to put it in a perspective.
 
Sgt Nic said:
On the other hand it is possible that people generally expects too much out of the submarine warfare.
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However, as far as the game is concerned, the German player should have a shot at strangling the United Kingdom with wolfpacks, since some historical accuracy can and should be sacrificed in order to get a fun game.

I would favor an approach, where a significant investment in submarines would give significant results. In our timeline, the Kriegmarine was always the least important of all the German armed forces branches, but there should always be a chance for the human player to change that.
 
Kemper Boyd:

I agree with you. The possibility of a German naval approach (above and/or under the surface) tributes considerably to replayability. And if Hellfish managed to sink around 20 ships a day he is well ahead of what Dönitz units did.

The Germans during WWII did manage to sink a lot of ships and worry people, but they didn’t try hard enough, early enough. When they started to seriously invest in the submarine fleet, it was too late. The Allies had already started to develop the counter-messeures. On the other hand – if they had started to build the submarine fleet earlier – the Brits would have protested and that may have affected the over all diplomatic relations and perhaps the outcome of Munich – who knows?

As I see it, it works almost OK today. Maybe the Brits should have more resources overseas or something to make them more vulnerable. But I havn't played the Brits yet, so I don’t know if it is the amount of resources on the home islands or if it is the size of their stocks that is the problem.

Another thing that could be modelled (I'm not a modder so I don't know how hard it is) is the choices between convoys or not (for BR) and unlimited submarine warfare or not (for GER). And the question of submarine production pre-war and agreements of restrictions of the navies.
 
Sgt Nic said:
The Germans during WWII did manage to sink a lot of ships and worry people, but they didn’t try hard enough, early enough. When they started to seriously invest in the submarine fleet, it was too late. The Allies had already started to develop the counter-messeures. On the other hand – if they had started to build the submarine fleet earlier – the Brits would have protested and that may have affected the over all diplomatic relations and perhaps the outcome of Munich – who knows?
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hi

i agree to your point - the diplomatic realtions and submarine warfare. Even during WWI it was a problem for the submarines to notice the difference between a "neutral" US-Freighter transporting supplies to GB or a british freighter bringing supplies to the front. Wich one is not a valid military target?

But what about the diplomatic consequences of sinking a "neutral" vessel? So if Germany presures the submarine war to far, countrys so far not involved in the war will suffer too - something like diplomatic colateral damage.

But the submarine war had an effect on GB - i think in game terms, the rising of dissent could perhaps it. Submarines are some kind of psychological Weapons - threatening the economic base of a country.

In the table-top game Advanced Third Reich from Avalon Hill (Great Games, Great Company), sub are handled in a very abstract way.

Perhaps this could be an approach to this topic. Ger investing in subs to raise the dissent of GB and GB is raising the costs for dissent ger has to pay - just an idea....

cu
 
Glad to see more submarine warefare interested people. I've been thinking of this since HoI1/CORE1.

It would be a joy if someone from the CORE-team could tell us about your discussion concerning this during development.

Even though I cant mod, I believe it might be hard to make advanced things about this. The question is – can we come up with any simple but good suggestions?

Here is some thoughts:

Naval limitations (GER):
Wasn't it something in CORE1 about the Z-plan and an option to go for subs instead? Basic idea is to somehow support a German submarine-path to the prize of worse relations to the allies or even partial mobilisation or rearmament.

Convoy option (BR):
If it is possible to play with trade and convoy efficiencies so that the British has the option to organise convoys, meaning less material reaching BR (took longer time to organize the convoys) but better possibilities for convoys to defend themselves. And the oposit possibility.

Unlimited submarine warfare option (GER):
A trade off between higher convoy-raiding efficiency for GER and worsened relations with a lot of other countries, among them USA.

There could be a lot more I believe.
 
There are new Naval doctrines in the making, so that will have a rather significant impact on this I assume. There were Z-Plan events in CORE1 and it's something I'd really like to se again - we have discussed it, on the old forum, but nothing has been done yet (there are things that we need to consider to make these events better for CORE2).

I can't say for certain, but the Unrestricted Submarine Warfare treads dangerously close to territory we have said we would not touch (we might get away with it with careful wording), though personally I think it could be a good idea - and the effect should probably be belligerence since that can affect when the US (and other countries) join the war against Germany (and coupled with relations for specific nations would reflect this kind of situation pretty well). I'll let one of the Old Dogs give a more definitive answer. :)
 
Yeah, I was thinking something like a 1% belligerence increase for Germany or something given by random daily % chance of an event firing if they've got naval units in the North Atlantic maybe? Can that be done?

Remember that I didn't use submarines exclusively, though - converted merchant aircraft carriers, lone wolf cruisers/battleships off Africa and submarines together all played significant roles in my convoy raiding. I actually think the carriers were the most effective, as a single fleet with destroyers, cruisers and a battlecruiser or two, but I had far more subs than I did carriers.

Now that I think about it, I'm also kind of bugged about aircraft. They're hugely expensive to build and nearly as expensive to upgrade. This might be realistic, given that you're replacing planes on a 1 to 1 basis, but it also, IMHO, seriously reduces the attraction of airpower. It's hard to justify spending that much IC over that much time to upgrade aircraft. Next game I may ignore the airforce entirely and see how that works. The lack of interdiction capability might be worth the extra panzer divisions I could build.
 
hellfish6 said:
Now that I think about it, I'm also kind of bugged about aircraft. They're hugely expensive to build and nearly as expensive to upgrade. This might be realistic, given that you're replacing planes on a 1 to 1 basis, but it also, IMHO, seriously reduces the attraction of airpower. It's hard to justify spending that much IC over that much time to upgrade aircraft. Next game I may ignore the airforce entirely and see how that works. The lack of interdiction capability might be worth the extra panzer divisions I could build.
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Upgrade time and cost for aircraft is getting fixed (as in reduced, a lot - cost should be roughly half of original price) for next release and some testing is underway about reducing aircraft cost (to see if it's viable or not).
 
In my Germany game I seem to have hit on a problem with researching midwar multirole and escort fighter aircraft, both techs are greyed out and not selectable. I researched all the earlier figher aircraft and when I select them for research they seem to indicate that they need the late war model researched, which impossible. Also I noticed I cannot research any more advanced bombers as in the same game after 1943.
 
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