Swabia

[Incompetent]

It's not clear whether ArchDuke intended Swabia to be a minor or a major power, and in a sense it's on the border - often it gets annexed, sometimes it persists as a minor, and quite a few times I've seen it become really strong. It has enough cultures to count as a major and some very juicy cores, but its event file is too sparse.

Nevertheless, I think Swabia needs to be firmly pushed into the 'major' category. We need more HRE players than just Bavaria and the Hansa, and by bridging the Alps, Swabia acts as a good 'in-between-country': as a few players have suggested, it'll be a good thing in Abe to have majors overlapping and running into each other, rather than having easily established borders. Finally, it stirs things up in Italy, where the current situation is that one power (typically Sicily, Genoa or the Pope) ends up ruling most of the peninsula.

The key to Swabia achieving majority is Milan. Without it, Swabia is sitting on the crossroads, waiting to be trampled on by Bavaria, Savoy, Genoa and Burgundy. Milan-less Swabia is stronger than vanilla Helvetia, but not quite strong enough to avoid the Swiss' typical vanilla fate. With Milan, Swabia gains 3 or so very rich provinces, and so becomes a force to be reckoned with. This is also about the only way Swabia can gain sea access. If we can get Swabia to inherit Milan maybe 2 times out of 3, we'll almost certainly have a regular major.

The other dimension is religion. I'd quite like Swabia to be the Protestant nemesis of the Catholic emperor (though as with all things, this is a 'probable' rather than 'inevitable' situation). This is going to be hard if Milan stays Catholic. But why does it have to? In the Abeverse, Milan could be a hotbed for radical theologians, and the city itself could join the Lutheran cause even without being forced to by the state.

Finally, we need to build an event file for Swabia after the initial chaos dies down. Any ideas?

 

[yourworstnightm]

One possible direction for Swabian expansion would be Italy, getting in Genoas expansion zone, but Genoa already has a hard time to expand. Another possibility is to make the Bavarian- Swabian conflict intense by giving them cores on eachother, but then one of them will certainly die early. Milan is the main goal for Swabia, and a possibility for them to move their capital there and become an italianized but still protestant nation could be cool, but I think the pope should get evnts to try to push catholic nations to kill the protestantic threat on his doorsteps.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Swabia seems like an interesting country if it can contain bavaria pr stay friendly.

If after getting the itallian culture hapsburgs get convinced to go protestant then i forsee an empire divided. by bavaria in the middle. bavaria has this nice long SE-NW string of cores and of course all the juicy dutch provinces.

Swabia has nice Swiss centered cores and then get all these wealthy north itallian cores.

But if Swabian hapsburgs go protestant while being on the doorstep of Rome it coudl get hairy. On one end there is catholic bavaria and pope and on another there is germano-itallian dynasty squished between these 2. And a lot of protestant provinces in the north of germany

Too bad ArchDuke never finished swabia. he finished Swabia's event file with this

event = {
id = 202124
trigger = {
religion = protestant
monarch = 32905
}
random = no
country = SWA
name = "The internal Habsburg conflict"
desc = "When Karl I converted to protestantism, there were several others fromt the Habsburg dynasty that refused to support him in his cause and left the duchy. Most of them went to the duchy Milan."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1520 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }
action_a = {
name = "I hope I don't have to see them again"
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = independence which = MLO }
command = { type = inherit which = MLO }
# Will trigger new dynasty in MLO, not completed
}
}


Sems like a project

 

[Loeffle]

And include that Baden and Swabia/Württemberg never liked each other ... There should also be an event for 1848/49 "Baden Revolution" ...

When there were some serious battles, where the King of Württemberg needed Prussias help to kill 10 % of Badens population ...

I dont know anything about programming these things, but if you need info, just write me a message

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Ok so since Hapsburgs did not go to austria and for some reason Bavaria already early on has cores on dutch lands the swabians sat there giving them the possibility to marry around in the area possibly getting milano nobility to support them once they take milano.

Why do Bavarians have some lowlands? It pulls the heat away from swabia and gives them a chance to develop. it puts bavaria in conflict with hansa. which both are good reasons. But not truly good explanations.

In vanilla (real history) Austrian Hapsburgs scheme to be the emperors for for centuries (1273 - 1291, 1298 - 1308, 1438 - 1740, and 1745 - 1806) earning an enpire where the sun never sets.

Swabian Hapsburgs get Itallian and german cultures.

Pretty good. Not Austro-Dutch-Spanish-Hungarian Empre but who wants the "Blob" in Abe. Bavaria already can do much of that

 

[unmerged(30761)]

And include that Baden and Swabia/Württemberg never liked each other ... There should also be an event for 1848/49 "Baden Revolution" ...

When there were some serious battles, where the King of Württemberg needed Prussias help to kill 10 % of Badens population ...

I dont know anything about programming these things, but if you need info, just write me a message

The game ends in 1820

 

[Incompetent]

And include that Baden and Swabia/Württemberg never liked each other ... There should also be an event for 1848/49 "Baden Revolution" ...

When there were some serious battles, where the King of Württemberg needed Prussias help to kill 10 % of Badens population ...

I dont know anything about programming these things, but if you need info, just write me a message

From what I understand, the Duchy of Swabia in the middle ages covered most of what's now Baden-Württemburg, but it later broke up. In Abe history a powerful duchy of Swabia has somehow survived, with Baden as a vassal. Was the rivalry between Baden and the Swabians particularly exceptional, as compared to the numerous other local rivalries in the HRE?

One source of tension would be the Reformation, if say Swabia goes Protestant while Baden stays Catholic. We could have events relating to that, especially when the big fight kicks off.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Swabia existed all the way to 1313, breaking up when Hohenstaufen family went down. Since Abe has Sicily, iirc Hohenstaufen didn't go down or went down differently, so it could explain why Swabia exists as well.

Duchy of Swabia passed to Rudolf (I as HRE) of Habsburg after Hohenstaufens passed, so that could explain why Swabia is Habsburg lands in Abe.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

The problem of early Swabia is Burgundy. If Burgundy can be held happy till the Division of Gaul kicks in then swabia has a chance. of if Burgundy looses Savoy alliance, Swabia has no chance agains both of them since Burgundy wants Alsace and Swabia has no way to voluntarily avoid that conflict. maybe even by ceeding that province or granting it independence.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Why do Bavarians have some lowlands? It pulls the heat away from swabia and gives them a chance to develop. it puts bavaria in conflict with hansa. which both are good reasons. But not truly good explanations.

The last counts of Holland and Hainaut (in personal union) were of Wittelsbach dynasty, same dynasty that rules Bavaria.

 

[yourworstnightm]

The problem is Swabia as AI is quite weak, In my latest Bavaria game there never were a Swabian- Bavarian conflict since I allied Swabia all the time just to save it from Burgundian coonquest. The real conflict was a germano- frankish (Bavaria and Swabia versus Burgundy and Savoy, later just Burgundy after a diploannexation). Swabia need to at least be able to survive the early waves of conquest from Bavaria and Burgundy.

 

[Incompetent]

The problem is Swabia as AI is quite weak, In my latest Bavaria game there never were a Swabian- Bavarian conflict since I allied Swabia all the time just to save it from Burgundian coonquest. The real conflict was a germano- frankish (Bavaria and Swabia versus Burgundy and Savoy, later just Burgundy after a diploannexation). Swabia need to at least be able to survive the early waves of conquest from Bavaria and Burgundy.

One solution could be to have Burgundy and Swabia as allies in 1419. Unlike Savoy, Swabia starts with vassals, which means Burgundy won't be able to diplovassalise it.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I think i understand why there would be an exchange of cultures between Byzantium and Genoa. In the presence of strong Swabia that got Milan and has mannaged to get a large chunk of Italy such a protection act would be a really really large boon. Who cares about those southern ittalian provinces they are dirty peasants anyways, let the Basilebs have them -- in Genoese opinion -- we will help them manage if they keep swabia off our hair

 

[Loeffle]

From what I understand, the Duchy of Swabia in the middle ages covered most of what's now Baden-Württemburg, but it later broke up. In Abe history a powerful duchy of Swabia has somehow survived, with Baden as a vassal. Was the rivalry between Baden and the Swabians particularly exceptional, as compared to the numerous other local rivalries in the HRE?

One source of tension would be the Reformation, if say Swabia goes Protestant while Baden stays Catholic. We could have events relating to that, especially when the big fight kicks off.

- oops never played your mod, so didnt know when it ends

- Duchy of Swabia covered primarily ONLY the Württemberg part of B-W

- Baden was for most of the time part of "Vorderösterreich" - more or less until Napoleon came - but for the later part of our game quite "selv-governed" ; during the 17th century parts of it were French, Bavarian, Prussian, Swedish, ....

- Baden was never vassal of Swabia, it was part/vassal of Austria, northern parts of Palatinate

- rivalry can be compared with England/Scotland in football We just cant stand them ...

- its not only religion, also culture imho. while baden always had close links to france, switzerland and austria - swabia/württemberg went more towards prussia and all that northern rubbish

this link might help? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden

 

[yourworstnightm]

- oops never played your mod, so didnt know when it ends

- Duchy of Swabia covered primarily ONLY the Württemberg part of B-W

- Baden was for most of the time part of "Vorderösterreich" - more or less until Napoleon came - but for the later part of our game quite "selv-governed" ; during the 17th century parts of it were French, Bavarian, Prussian, Swedish, ....

- Baden was never vassal of Swabia, it was part/vassal of Austria, northern parts of Palatinate

- rivalry can be compared with England/Scotland in football We just cant stand them ...

- its not only religion, also culture imho. while baden always had close links to france, switzerland and austria - swabia/württemberg went more towards prussia and all that northern rubbish

this link might help? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden

This mod is all about alternate history, so here Swabia survived, and ended up in Habsburg hands since they never got Austria.

Back to the point, as someonepointed out in the Poland thread, there was a chance for an Habsburg inheritance of Poland, if Poland hadn't had an Lithuanian friendly policy, which they haven't in Abe, what if Swabia could have some influences over Poland??

 

[unmerged(30761)]

Well around the 1520 there is an event where Swabia assumes the throne of Milan and in fact Becomes Milan.

Once Swabia becomes Milan it assumes the events of Milan. which there are hardly any.

So given that this is a logical choice since it provides some cores the Swabia should pretty much be always considered with Milan as a pair.

If Swabia stays Swabia and foregoes Milan Events they get the Martin Luther events. If they go protestant then Milan seccedes and become an independent (that is already in the event tree, just never finished)

This path can lead to increased liking of swabia in the north of germany and some interesting alliance opitions with all the minors that are left wanting to get into an alliance with swabia.

If Swabia becomes Milan then they do not get the protestant events and instead choose to focus on Italy

Either way in about 30 - 40 years after the luther event in 1520 maybe there should be a royal marriage with a far away place spicing up a game again

As suggested in the Poland thread it coudl be poland. Swabia coula already have a poland part in the beginning but that puts it into dirreect conflict with TO Branderburg and Bohemia. Which shoudl be probably unfortunate,

It is possible that if Poland is annihilated and there was a royal marriage then the polish aristocracy flees to Swabia greanting a core on some polish territory at that time. Poland tends to stick around quite a bit. So it coudl be later on.

And this event should disregard whether it is milan or swabia since the royal huoses were married not the countries.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Sounds like a good idea, Swabia need an alternate direction of expansion and Polans sounds good to me.

 

[Incompetent]

...

Some good ideas here, though I would say the following.

If Swabia goes Protestant, it may well be expected to fight Catholic Bavaria in the HRE's religious wars. If it loses Milan it'll probably be too weak to do this, so I think we should find some way of having protestant Swabia keep Milan. Dissent within Swabia could instead be represented say by Swabian Catholics in Italy looking for Genoese or Papal support.

Swabian claims on Poland in the 16th century are a good idea. But I wouldn't want Swabia fighting against Bohemia early on, because there are enough countries beating down on Bohemia as it is. Also, at the moment it's fairly critical for the TO that they take over Poland, as it's their only real source of rich provinces.

A big Protestant alliance with Swabia at the head is good. I was thinking that it might emerge when we have the big HRE religious conflict, maybe in the late 16th century.

 

[yourworstnightm]

AsI said in the Poland thread TO never really beat Hungary in the race for Poland since TO seems occupied with the russians and the Hungarians usually just use their diploannexation card, therefor a Poland under the influence as another power than Hungary would be good.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

=====================
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4259160&postcount=11

Swabian Hapsburgs inherit Milano (most of the time) and in fact become Milano. Then the event files stop for milano pretty abruptly

So this new Swabian Milano . Here are a few ideas. Luther in Swabia event files approached the hapsburg Duke of Swabia first. He agreed to become the first protestant country.


Since he is in Milano now it is more compplicated.
Since they, Swabia want to quite possibly make Northern Italy protestant. Then Hapsburgs have a family feud. (as per events already described. Swabia/Milano that is protestant in this Hapsburg family feud will have Milano rebel and have the deeply catholic part of the family as governors. events are needed to play out this feud. A few wars likely follow.

All this must anger Papal States supremely. having a protestant kingdom on their doorstep. At first they can try to crusade themselves. Should they not win then everyone and their mother will probably get a cb. bavaria can crusade. Northern german protestant countries probably will join Swabia. Which after this was should any of them be annihilated should inherit the rest and get shields on all of them.

================

Papal Lands

Creation of Kingdom of Italy events from AGCEEP. There are Papal States Events. Papacy should be considered in this.
I propose that these events be adapted for the use of Genoa, Sicily and Papal Lands

Creation of Kingdom of Italy events from AGCEEP. They are Papal States Events. Papacy should be considered in this.
I propose that these events be adapted for the use of Genoa, Sicily and Swabia/Milan. In these Events the Historical Hapsburgs, being the emperors, are involved in the creation of the kingdom. They are of course are not terribly happy. Now they are not the HRE. Which can be played up by the Catholic Bavaria which can at this time demand a more permanent title of the HR Emperor and then War upon Swabia/Milan who, should they be denied the title of the kingdom of Italy will go to try to take the title of the Kingdom of Lotharingia too if they are victorius over bavaria. By being catholic they have no better ally than bavaria as they are not aiming for the same lands early on.

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158170

Really good discussion there about italian Majors and Milan.

=================
Hansa ownership of Firenze

Genoa, Papal States, Milan and Sicily should have an option of buying Firenze from hansa or winning it in a war. Figting across the whole continent is a bit tough and likely only a player can do it,

=========================

Here is AGCEEP Papal Reaction to Luther

#One historic and one unlikely reaction to Luther
event = {
id = 251013
random = no
country = PAP
name = "Bull of excommunication: Exsurge Domine"
desc = "The condemnation of the ideas of Luther was not a hasty decision.
His Ninety-five Theses had been made known the 31 october of 1517 and judged
some weeks later as heretical by German theologians. It became a very
public controversy. One year later, Luther had the support of many German
princes and Rome began to worry. All these ideas of reform were becoming
more and more radical. Luther got as far as to appeal the Emperor to
destroy the power of the pope. The 15 july of 1520, after careful scrutiny
of his writings, Rome formally condemned forty-one propositions of Luther
and summoned him to recant. It did no good, of course, but at the time there
was already no space for a compromise. If the pope had tried for such a
compromise, it would have mean more trouble in Italy than peace in Germany."
style = 1
date = { day = 15 month = july year = 1520 }

action_a = {
name = "Let's condemn"
command = { type = CASH value = 100 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Try to compromise"
command = { type = STABILITY value = -2 }
command = { type = DOMESTIC which = INNOVATIVE value = 2 }
command = { type = DOMESTIC which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
command = { type = CASH value = -50 }
}
}


I do not quite understand why they get 100 gold from the deal in condemnation but i have seen weirder stuff in AGCEEP