Swabia

[Incompetent]

And Swabia is a terrific name, and I would support it - if the main emphasis of the file was it's cultural connection. The original Kaigon file was, and my rewrite still is - rather Habsburg based. And since he and I have been using the vanilla Habsburg lineage, it seems the vanilla Habsburg naming is more appropriate.

It doesn't have to be about the culture. Scotland's events don't have much to do with the Scottish clans, and the Teutonic Order isn't even really German. As Austria, Styria etc have never been Habsburg in our timeline, I don't know how the nomenclature would evolve, but if the region's been called Swabia, there's no reason to assume its rulers wouldn't call it Swabia too, even if they are more cosmopolitan. What about calling it Baden or Wurttemburg? They don't have many cultural connotations AFAIK.

Then there is - most probably - a split, and two nations are formed. One is centred around Swabisch nobles, and it make sense to call it Swabia. The other is centred around Milan, echoing the Lombard state from a century back, and the name of the province. But I am also happy to call it Italy, provided it controls more than half of the peninsular.

Who said anything about the peninsula? The Kingdom of Italy ('Italy' for short) already exists in 1419, albeit as quite a loose entity, and it stops above the Papal States; south of there, people like the Sicilians and Neapolitans aren't Italian at all, no more than the people of modern Istanbul are Greeks. The question is whether the Habsburgs or Visconti could reasonably push for the title, and I don't see how taking Marche or Apulia would help particularly.

In terms of splitting and balance, I'd suggest the following formula:

Swabia + Milan: stays together, remains German-oriented, with a fair amount of autonomy for Milan. Capital remains north of the Alps. With limited involvement in Italy, Swabia doesn't get or need Italian culture. We shouldn't assume that countries are unable to rule over provinces that are 'wrong-culture', it just means those places are less well integrated into the tax system, army etc.

Swabia + Kingdom of Italy: capital moves to Milan, state becomes much more Italian and changes name to Italy (Kingdom of Italy outranks Duchy (?) of Swabia). Italian becomes primary culture. Swabian nobles are disgruntled and likely break away while the Habsburgs are busying themselves in Italy. But if they don't all break away, Italy doesn't necessarily deserve to lose German culture, or at least it wouldn't if German culture weren't so powerful. We could allow Italy to retain a lesser 'Alemannic', 'Swabian' or 'Alpine' culture, or we could allow some provinces (eg Tirol) to get Italianised for the purposes of Habsburg rule. At the same time, it isn't fair to punish the Habsburgs too heavily for moving south, as forming the Kindgom of Italy will be considerably harder than carving out a corner of Germany.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

It doesn't have to be about the culture. Scotland's events don't have much to do with the Scottish clans, and the Teutonic Order isn't even really German. As Austria, Styria etc have never been Habsburg in our timeline, I don't know how the nomenclature would evolve, but if the region's been called Swabia, there's no reason to assume its rulers wouldn't call it Swabia too, even if they are more cosmopolitan. What about calling it Baden or Wurttemburg? They don't have many cultural connotations AFAIK.

AbeI "Swabia" uses the Austrian monarchs. Maybe they were being lazy, or maybe they saw Swabia as the remaining bits of the Habsburg empire. I don't know. I have never bothered to ask Kaigon.

But I like his idea. Whatever you call it, AbeI "Swabia" corresponds pretty closely to the RL 1419 borders of what was called back then, "Further Austria".

But Kaigon called it "Swabia", probably because "Further Austria" doesn't sound as exciting as "The Golden Horde" or "Grasshoppers Zurich". And I'd agree with him.

But I want to draw a distinction between a 1419 Habsburg duchy, and the 1485 "bit-of-germany" left after Phillip discards it for Milan. Both bits need different names, because they each have a different character.. It's akin to when Bavaria take over Germany, and we decide to let them form a thing called "Germany", not "HRE" or "Greater Bavaria".

So.... we could call the 1419 bit "Further Austria" because that's what the Habsburgs actually called it in 1419, except with a german accent.

And it fits the (aberrated) story line if when the Habsburg leave town in 1485 and the only thing left are some Swabisch nobles, then, umm, let's call the remaining bit "Swabia".

Or the place shatters into 3-4 different provinces, we call one of them "Baden", another "Wurttemburg", another "Schwyz", and another "Tirol". And Bavaria can have them for breakfast.

Who said anything about the peninsula? The Kingdom of Italy ('Italy' for short) already exists in 1419, albeit as quite a loose entity, and it stops above the Papal States; south of there, people like the Sicilians and Neapolitans aren't Italian at all, no more than the people of modern Istanbul are Greeks. The question is whether the Habsburgs or Visconti could reasonably push for the title, and I don't see how taking Marche or Apulia would help particularly.

Whatever. It would just be a little farcical if some jumped up owner of Milan and the immediate farming district around it (in-game Lombardy) started calling himself King of Italy. Perhaps we name it Lombardy at the start, and Phillip can call himself King if he takes out Genoa. Or Juventus and Parma.

In terms of splitting and balance, I'd suggest the following formula:

Swabia + Milan: stays together, remains German-oriented, with a fair amount of autonomy for Milan. Capital remains north of the Alps. With limited involvement in Italy, Swabia doesn't get or need Italian culture. We shouldn't assume that countries are unable to rule over provinces that are 'wrong-culture', it just means those places are less well integrated into the tax system, army etc.

This is cool. An alternative to Phillip moving to Milan. Fine. The only reason I have gven them Italian culture is because his mother Duchess Bianca has moved the court there for 6 months of every year, and half the influential nobles are Italian. So it kind fits.

But we could say that if Phillip doesn't actually move to Milan - as per your suggestion - then they lose italian culture after 10 years or so as the disgruntled Italians leave town.

Swabia + Kingdom of Italy: capital moves to Milan, state becomes much more Italian and changes name to Italy (Kingdom of Italy outranks Duchy (?) of Swabia). Italian becomes primary culture. Swabian nobles are disgruntled and likely break away while the Habsburgs are busying themselves in Italy. But if they don't all break away, Italy doesn't necessarily deserve to lose German culture, or at least it wouldn't if German culture weren't so powerful. We could allow Italy to retain a lesser 'Alemannic', 'Swabian' or 'Alpine' culture, or we could allow some provinces (eg Tirol) to get Italianised for the purposes of Habsburg rule. At the same time, it isn't fair to punish the Habsburgs too heavily for moving south, as forming the Kindgom of Italy will be considerably harder than carving out a corner of Germany.

Agreed. But I love the idea of an alpine or alemannic culture. It would help break down the power of german culture....

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Stcking with Swabia is fine by me, but how about ... Habsburg?

Because I envisage and am writing two states, both who existed IRL, both Habsburg.

That which is Habsburg and centred around Wurtemburg, Schwyz, Bern etc. I think we should call "Further Austria". We might as well call it Helvetia, as Swabia.

That which is Habsburg and has Styria and Istria I think we should call "Inner Austria".


This is all just a humble opinion, and I am really happy to name these places anything you like.

Keep in mind that by 1485 it is likely that neither state will still exist, and the Habsburg will have either been put to the sword or renamed themselves Viscontis.

 

[Incompetent]

Whatever. It would just be a little farcical if some jumped up owner of Milan and the immediate farming district around it (in-game Lombardy) started calling himself King of Italy. Perhaps we name it Lombardy at the start, and Phillip can call himself King if he takes out Genoa. Or Juventus and Parma.

The country with capital Milan starts off as Milan, though Lombardy could work as well. We can then have event sequences for Milan to become KoI before the Habsburg inheritance, and for Outer Austria to become KoI after the inheritance (ie, they inherit a weak Milan but then expand greatly in Italy). We can have a route for Savoy to become Italy as well if they choose to focus on Italian expansion rather than Occitan.

Killing Genoa with all its likely colonies is asking a bit too much, I think. I'd say that to form KoI, Milan/Outer Austria would need Lombardia, Mantua (?), Emilia, either Firenze or Siena (with vassalage over the other if it's a minor, and good relations with the Hansa if they rule it), good relations with Savoy (if they have Piemonte) and Genoa either conquered or vassalised. This KoI would be ruled from Milan, though the capital move might happen early and be followed up by deliberate Italian expansion, or it might happen later, after the Habsburgs have 'accidentally' taken over lots of Italian provinces and need to move for administrative convenience.

For Savoy and Italian 'feudal' minors (Reggio? Siena?), the requirements would be similar except they'd have to drive the Habsburgs/Visconti out of Italy altogether, as these dynasties would never bow to other claims while they still had Milan and such. A Savoyard KoI could rule from Turin or Milan, don't know which makes more sense; a minor-formed KoI would rule from Milan or its own capital.

Genoa can't form KoI as it isn't feudal. But if it grew powerful enough in Italy, it could try to declare the KoI defunct (given most of it is under Republican rule) and so leave the HRE. Again, the Visconti/Habsburgs would have to be roundly defeated for this to happen.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

The country with capital Milan starts off as Milan, though Lombardy could work as well. We can then have event sequences for Milan to become KoI before the Habsburg inheritance, and for Outer Austria to become KoI after the inheritance (ie, they inherit a weak Milan but then expand greatly in Italy). We can have a route for Savoy to become Italy as well if they choose to focus on Italian expansion rather than Occitan.

This is great. The Milan file is pretty small at the moment, and giving it a destiny like this would be terrific.

Killing Genoa with all its likely colonies is asking a bit too much, I think.

Sorry, the Genoa thing was a joke. It would certainly be too much.

I'd say that to form KoI, Milan/Outer Austria would need Lombardia, Mantua (?), Emilia, either Firenze or Siena (with vassalage over the other if it's a minor, and good relations with the Hansa if they rule it), good relations with Savoy (if they have Piemonte) and Genoa either conquered or vassalised. This KoI would be ruled from Milan, though the capital move might happen early and be followed up by deliberate Italian expansion, or it might happen later, after the Habsburgs have 'accidentally' taken over lots of Italian provinces and need to move for administrative convenience.

For Savoy and Italian 'feudal' minors (Reggio? Siena?), the requirements would be similar except they'd have to drive the Habsburgs/Visconti out of Italy altogether, as these dynasties would never bow to other claims while they still had Milan and such. A Savoyard KoI could rule from Turin or Milan, don't know which makes more sense; a minor-formed KoI would rule from Milan or its own capital.

Genoa can't form KoI as it isn't feudal. But if it grew powerful enough in Italy, it could try to declare the KoI defunct (given most of it is under Republican rule) and so leave the HRE. Again, the Visconti/Habsburgs would have to be roundly defeated for this to happen.

In the mid 1500's the Hansa lose Firenze if they go reformed, and perhaps earlier if KoI form and present a strong case to the Medici Mayors. It's a nice twist. Love it. But who is going to do it?

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I posted some comments on the first testing of the Beta with Swabia in it. Here.